Study - CFB team value

[307bball]

I agree with a lot but not this. Sustained success in sports builds programs, donations, etc. Fans are fickle. There is no way to know what winning could generate at WYO; we've never won. Rat boy had the AA rocking for a few years so potential is there.

Filling the AA and the War consistently is great. That should be the goal. The best way to maximize donations, NIL etc is to do exactly as you say. The problem remains that you end up maximizing something that is not that big.

The comp.. And it's one that everybody agrees is not really replicable is Boise. They were successful in building an impressive national brand but they started with a population center (Boise Metro area) in the year 2000 of nearly as much as the entire state of Wyoming.... And it's exploded since then. The ceiling of program investment for Wyoming is just not that high... It's an intractable problem.

 

[PAPoke]

The way you sell Laramie is not to the players but to their parents. Small town, less distractions from education, close knit community etc. The fact is however that the player will want to go wherever they see the chance to play/start and for the most money. Wyoming can offer lots of the former but very little in the grand scheme of things when it comes to money.

If your goal is major championships,you're not selling parents on Laramie. At least, not parents of the athletes who are going to be difference makers. Laramie and UWYO are not the draw people think that it is. I loved my time in the state, but it offers very little by way of anything important to what the FB/MBB athlete is looking for these days.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Filling the AA and the War consistently is great. That should be the goal. The best way to maximize donations, NIL etc is to do exactly as you say. The problem remains that you end up maximizing something that is not that big.

The comp.. And it's one that everybody agrees is not really replicable is Boise. They were successful in building an impressive national brand but they started with a population center (Boise Metro area) in the year 2000 of nearly as much as the entire state of Wyoming.... And it's exploded since then. The ceiling of program investment for Wyoming is just not that high... It's an intractable problem.

Football ceiling is different than bball. We've discussed football a lot. Outside of coaching hires and possibly resource allocation (I honestly don't know on this), I don't blame Burman for chasing the football fantasy.

That's why I said hindsight is easy. However, it's possible that it might have been better to shift a lot of resources to bball and sacrifice football. Maybe that's the right play now? With our resources and at the expense of other programs like football, it's possible or was possible to build a really good men's bball program.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

If your goal is major championships,you're not selling parents on Laramie. At least, not parents of the athletes who are going to be difference makers. Laramie and UWYO are not the draw people think that it is. I loved my time in the state, but it offers very little by way of anything important to what the FB/MBB athlete is looking for these days.

We align pretty well with the new MWC.

 

[307bball]

Football ceiling is different than bball. We've discussed football a lot. Outside of coaching hires and possibly resource allocation (I honestly don't know on this), I don't blame Burman for chasing the football fantasy.

That's why I said hindsight is easy. However, it's possible that it might have been better to shift a lot of resources to bball and sacrifice football. Maybe that's the right play now? With our resources and at the expense of other programs like football, it's possible or was possible to build a really good men's bball program.

I think it probably was possible...if it takes real NIL dollars nowadays to field a team that won't lose by 30 in the first round of the NCAA (if you even get an invite), then Wyoming is going to struggle.

 

[307bball]

We align pretty well with the new MWC.

My sense is that, as much as we love us some wide open Wyoming spaces...what PAPoke wrote below hew's much closer to how Laramie is viewed by the current and upcoming college athletes. It's tough to put your finger directly on it but I think he did. It's not even about economic opportunities or anything easily measurable. It's about perception.

We’re still missing the point: Laramie isn’t a destination. No matter how much we want to believe otherwise, it’s just not.

Everyone’s talking about development, facilities, and NIL, but no one wants to acknowledge the obvious. You’re asking 18-22-year-old "athletes", many from urban or suburban areas, to spend years in one of the most isolated towns in the country.

It’s not just about sports. These kids want a lifestyle: things to do, people to meet, and culture. When you’re recruiting against places like San Diego, Fort Collins, or Boise, Wyoming is at a disadvantage before you even start the conversation.

You can have the best weight room and culture, but if kids can't picture themselves living there good luck. This isn’t the ‘90s anymore. Gen Z wants wins, exposure, and a social life. That’s not a knock on Wyoming; it’s the reality of the landscape.

Also, the Denver comparison is lazy as shit. The NBA is a closed, professional league with salary caps, luxury taxes, and revenue sharing to create parity. College football? No cap on what schools or boosters can throw at NIL. No draft to level the playing field. No real mechanisms to help the have-nots. Comparing Wyoming to a pro team with billion-dollar resources is a huge reach.


Expectations can’t be the same. College football has never been fair, and now it’s even less so.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I think it probably was possible...if it takes real NIL dollars nowadays to field a team that won't lose by 30 in the first round of the NCAA (if you even get an invite), then Wyoming is going to struggle.

I would guess a mill or 2 goes a long ways to build a roster that competes for a MWC championship with the right coach. The post-season may be changing or not. Step 1 is control what you can and try to get a team that consistently challenges for a conference championship. Really, this should be doable in the new mwc football as well.

 

[rocket city poke]

Might I interject that Laramie is comparable to Missoula, Bozeman, Fargo, Pocatello, Idaho Falls, Ogden, Sioux Falls, etc. A move to the Big Sky would make sense both competitively and financially. How can others not see that?

That's never been more true, particularly with regard to the disparity in NIL dollars between the Big Sky and the MWC. However, the administrators, legislators and BOT all got behind the indoor practice facility, the RAC and upgrades to War Memorial. It was easy to put these expenditures in the Capital Construction budget for UW and pass them off as for an "academic" purpose. The other reason is (as pointed out above) our administrators and coaches are making tons of money and none of them want to take the pay cut. Burman would go from making $551k a year to like $200k a year. Never mind that if UW paid him that much right now we would still get the same results. Being in the MWC justifies the outrageous salaries.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

My sense is that, as much as we love us some wide open Wyoming spaces...what PAPoke wrote below hew's much closer to how Laramie is viewed by the current and upcoming college athletes. It's tough to put your finger directly on it but I think he did. It's not even about economic opportunities or anything easily measurable. It's about perception.

Meh, what schools in the new MWC are destinations that help sway a decision? Vegas? Maybe. Phoenix in bball? Maybe.

Sorry, I'm not buying the competitive disadvantage within the new MWC. That excuse is out the window now.

 

[307bball]

Meh, what schools in the new MWC are destinations that help sway a decision? Vegas? Maybe. Phoenix in bball? Maybe.

Sorry, I'm not buying the competitive disadvantage within the new MWC. That excuse is out the window now.

In the absence of some polling of athletes on this topic directly, we will always be able to logically take the position you are taking (as well as the position PAPoke has described).

To take what PAPoke said seriously requires a person to completely remove the brown and gold lenses though. Is he right? I say yes... It explains a lot and doesn't conflict with other observable tends. If you are the UW athletic director, this is not an "agree to disagree" type of issue. The actual reality of how Laramie is viewed by potential athletes makes certain approaches to athletics at UW non viable.... No matter how well executed.

 

[PAPoke]

Meh, what schools in the new MWC are destinations that help sway a decision? Vegas? Maybe. Phoenix in bball? Maybe.

Sorry, I'm not buying the competitive disadvantage within the new MWC. That excuse is out the window now.

I’m sorry, ragtimejoe1, but this couldn’t be further from the truth in 2025. You’re not getting difference-makers to pick Laramie, Wyoming over cities like Phoenix, San Jose, Vegas, Reno, Davis, and more.

I say that as a Black dude from Philly who spent three years in Wyoming earning my master’s. I had a chance to stay for a full-time job at UWYO. I picked Omaha instead. Omaha. Because there’s just not shit to do in Laramie that’s attractive to people like me.

This isn’t about the MWC being a ‘competitive disadvantage.’ It’s about what Gen Z athletes care about: representation, nightlife, food, culture, and being seen. They’re not just picking a program, they’re picking a lifestyle.

Laramie doesn’t offer that. It’s cold, isolated, and culturally empty. Meanwhile:

• Wyoming is 1% Black.
• No major airport.
• Brutal weather.
• The Buckhorn is the premier nightlife scene.
• No barbershops for a proper fade.
• No community or cultural outlets for athletes of color.

Do you really think a kid from Atlanta, Dallas, or South Central is picking that over Vegas? Phoenix? San Jose?

Across football and basketball, well over 60% of NCAA athletes are non-white—likely closer to 75% when you account for everyone who’s not white. And if you think you’re gonna win anything meaningful in 2025 with a roster full of white kids from the Midwest, I’ve got bad news for you.

UNLV is in Vegas, where players can train, live, and market themselves like pros. Phoenix is booming with cultural energy. San Jose has Bay Area clout, diversity, and real NIL upside. Even Reno and Albuquerque have more to offer than Laramie.

Laramie is a cultural dead zone. It’s not just about facilities or conference realignment. It’s about the environment. And if you can’t recruit to where you live, you’re not competing—no matter what the conference says on paper.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

In the absence of some polling of athletes on this topic directly, we will always be able to logically take the position you are taking (as well as the position PAPoke has described).

To take what PAPoke said seriously requires a person to completely remove the brown and gold lenses though. Is he right? I say yes... It explains a lot and doesn't conflict with other observable tends. If you are the UW athletic director, this is not an "agree to disagree" type of issue. The actual reality of how Laramie is viewed by potential athletes makes certain approaches to athletics at UW non viable.... No matter how well executed.

Recruits at the new MWC level are just happy to get D1/fbs interest. Coaching relationships, position situations, and NIL are much more important than destination. How many kids are going to say "gee, UW has a good academic fit for me, I really like v the coaches, and I should be able to play soon because my position is open for competition but screw that. I'm going Albuquerque for the night life!".

The competitive disadvantage due to external factors excuse is dead in the new MWC. Even NIL won't be as big of factor within conference because nobody that's left is going on a spending spree.

If the new MWC has so many advantages over poor little WYO, then cut athletics. This isn't the mwc of old. It's not even close.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I’m sorry, ragtimejoe1, but this couldn’t be further from the truth in 2025. You’re not getting difference-makers to pick Laramie, Wyoming over cities like Phoenix, San Jose, Vegas, Reno, Davis, and more.

I say that as a Black dude from Philly who spent three years in Wyoming earning my master’s. I had a chance to stay for a full-time job at UWYO. I picked Omaha instead. Omaha. Because there’s just not shit to do in Laramie that’s attractive to people like me.

This isn’t about the MWC being a ‘competitive disadvantage.’ It’s about what Gen Z athletes care about: representation, nightlife, food, culture, and being seen. They’re not just picking a program, they’re picking a lifestyle.

Laramie doesn’t offer that. It’s cold, isolated, and culturally empty. Meanwhile:

• Wyoming is 1% Black.
• No major airport.
• Brutal weather.
• The Buckhorn is the premier nightlife scene.
• No barbershops for a proper fade.
• No community or cultural outlets for athletes of color.

Do you really think a kid from Atlanta, Dallas, or South Central is picking that over Vegas? Phoenix? San Jose?

Across football and basketball, well over 60% of NCAA athletes are non-white—likely closer to 75% when you account for everyone who’s not white. And if you think you’re gonna win anything meaningful in 2025 with a roster full of white kids from the Midwest, I’ve got bad news for you.

UNLV is in Vegas, where players can train, live, and market themselves like pros. Phoenix is booming with cultural energy. San Jose has Bay Area clout, diversity, and real NIL upside. Even Reno and Albuquerque have more to offer than Laramie.

Laramie is a cultural dead zone. It’s not just about facilities or conference realignment. It’s about the environment. And if you can’t recruit to where you live, you’re not competing—no matter what the conference says on paper.

You do realize when we've had the right people in place, we've competed with the new MWC teams pretty well?

 

[PAPoke]

Recruits at the new MWC level are just happy to get D1/fbs interest. Coaching relationships, position situations, and NIL are much more important than destination. How many kids are going to say "gee, UW has a good academic fit for me, I really like v the coaches, and I should be able to play soon because my position is open for competition but screw that. I'm going Albuquerque for the night life!".

The competitive disadvantage due to external factors excuse is dead in the new MWC. Even NIL won't be as big of factor within conference because nobody that's left is going on a spending spree.

If the new MWC has so many advantages over poor little WYO, then cut athletics. This isn't the mwc of old. It's not even close.

You’re moving the goalposts.

Nobody’s saying recruits are choosing schools purely based on nightlife. But when a 3-star DB has offers from Wyoming, UNLV, and New Mexico? Yeah, the city, the vibe, and the ability to feel seen and supported matters. A lot.

It feels like many are still living in the past. Today's athletes is brand-aware, social, and care about more than depth charts. If you think these decisions are happening in a vacuum—just coach, playing time, and “golly gee, I love the local campus!", you’re not paying attention.

Also: don’t downplay NIL like it’s irrelevant. Even if it’s not a spending war, schools in Phoenix, Vegas, and San Jose have access to way bigger media markets, alumni bases, and endorsement possibilities. That stuff adds up. A Laramie-based kid trying to build a brand? Good luck getting a deal with anyone outside of Rocky Mountain Shirtworks, Laramie Auto Glass, and All Terrain Sports

No one said to cut Wyoming athletics. I’m saying: stop pretending geography, culture, and demographic isolation don’t impact recruiting. Because they do. Laramie’s not the only one dealing with it—but it’s one of the worst-positioned places in sports in 2025.

You don’t win by ignoring that. You win by adapting to it.

You do realize when we've had the right people in place, we've competed with the new MWC teams pretty well?

Of course I do, I was on campus when we competed with the MWC teams and made some national noise. The reality is, that times have changed.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

You’re moving the goalposts.

Nobody’s saying recruits are choosing schools purely based on nightlife. But when a 3-star DB has offers from Wyoming, UNLV, and New Mexico? Yeah, the city, the vibe, and the ability to feel seen and supported matters. A lot.

It feels like many are still living in the past. Today's athletes is brand-aware, social, and care about more than depth charts. If you think these decisions are happening in a vacuum—just coach, playing time, and “golly gee, I love the local campus!", you’re not paying attention.

Also: don’t downplay NIL like it’s irrelevant. Even if it’s not a spending war, schools in Phoenix, Vegas, and San Jose have access to way bigger media markets, alumni bases, and endorsement possibilities. That stuff adds up. A Laramie-based kid trying to build a brand? Good luck getting a deal with anyone outside of Rocky Mountain Shirtworks, Laramie Auto Glass, and All Terrain Sports

No one said to cut Wyoming athletics. I’m saying: stop pretending geography, culture, and demographic isolation don’t impact recruiting. Because they do. Laramie’s not the only one dealing with it—but it’s one of the worst-positioned places in sports in 2025.

You don’t win by ignoring that. You win by adapting to it.

Coaching relationships, position situations, and academics are far more important than geography for kids at our level especially with transfers.

NIL is certainly a big deal but so far nobody in the new MWC is on a spending spree. If teams in conference do pony up and we don't, then it is time to pack it up.

 

[307bball]

I would guess a mill or 2 goes a long ways to build a roster that competes for a MWC championship with the right coach. The post-season may be changing or not. Step 1 is control what you can and try to get a team that consistently challenges for a conference championship. Really, this should be doable in the new mwc football as well.

Setting aside the amount...(I have no idea if that is the right number). Does that number get funded by UW? The UW fans and community are funding some NIL but, in general, that money is not showing up from fans.

This gets to the other issue that you, PAPoke and I are batting around. How is UW seen by recruits? Depending on the answer to that question, Just having the same amount of NIL money as our conference partners may not be enough. If the money is equal at two different places, candidates will choose based on other factors....factors that may not be in UW's favor.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

You’re moving the goalposts.

Nobody’s saying recruits are choosing schools purely based on nightlife. But when a 3-star DB has offers from Wyoming, UNLV, and New Mexico? Yeah, the city, the vibe, and the ability to feel seen and supported matters. A lot.

It feels like many are still living in the past. Today's athletes is brand-aware, social, and care about more than depth charts. If you think these decisions are happening in a vacuum—just coach, playing time, and “golly gee, I love the local campus!", you’re not paying attention.

Also: don’t downplay NIL like it’s irrelevant. Even if it’s not a spending war, schools in Phoenix, Vegas, and San Jose have access to way bigger media markets, alumni bases, and endorsement possibilities. That stuff adds up. A Laramie-based kid trying to build a brand? Good luck getting a deal with anyone outside of Rocky Mountain Shirtworks, Laramie Auto Glass, and All Terrain Sports

No one said to cut Wyoming athletics. I’m saying: stop pretending geography, culture, and demographic isolation don’t impact recruiting. Because they do. Laramie’s not the only one dealing with it—but it’s one of the worst-positioned places in sports in 2025.

You don’t win by ignoring that. You win by adapting to it.



Of course I do, I was on campus when we competed with the MWC teams and made some national noise. The reality is, that times have changed.

The biggest change is conference composition. The MWC leftovers have struggled with consistency just as we have. They have their challenges and we have ours.

I honestly can't believe the excuse machine is still a thing. Sheesh, if Nevada, AF, unlv, unm, utep, niu, grand canyon, uc Davis, sjsu, and hi are insurmountable, you better just put up the out of business sign and call it a day.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Setting aside the amount...(I have no idea if that is the right number). Does that number get funded by UW? The UW fans and community are funding some NIL but, in general, that money is not showing up from fans.

This gets to the other issue that you, PAPoke and I are batting around. How is UW seen by recruits? Depending on the answer to that question, Just having the same amount of NIL money as our conference partners may not be enough. If the money is equal at two different places, candidates will choose based on other factors....factors that may not be in UW's favor.

What's important is what conference peers put up. I was throwing that number out there as an example that funding an upper level bball program is easier than football.

Source of funding is up to the ad and fans.

 

[307bball]

Coaching relationships, position situations, and academics are far more important than geography for kids at our level especially with transfers.

NIL is certainly a big deal but so far nobody in the new MWC is on a spending spree. If teams in conference do pony up and we don't, then it is time to pack it up.

Proving this true or false in comparison to what PAPoke is describing is probably not going to be possible in a message board context. PAPoke has described his experience and viewpoint that, while anecdotal, rings true to me and what I'm observing.

I'm having a hard time steel-manning your position though. Could you say more about why you believe that UW is positioned on a level playing field in the eyes of potential recruits? You aren't the only one who espouses this position....One of the things that is problematic is that this discussion is happening among a group of middle-aged (and older...time is flying by) dudes that are probably pretty demographically uniform. All of us whinge-ing about how Laramie is just fine and claiming that there is marginal difference between Laramie and the rest of the locations of our conference institutions should at least be examined. This could be as big of a blind spot as any unexamined nepotistic tradition that is alive and well in the halls of power in the state.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Proving this true or false in comparison to what PAPoke is describing is probably not going to be possible in a message board context. PAPoke has described his experience and viewpoint that, while anecdotal, rings true to me and what I'm observing.

I'm having a hard time steel-manning your position though. Could you say more about why you believe that UW is positioned on a level playing field in the eyes of potential recruits? You aren't the only one who espouses this position....One of the things that is problematic is that this discussion is happening among a group of middle-aged (and older...time is flying by) dudes that are probably pretty demographically uniform. All of us whinge-ing about how Laramie is just fine and claiming that there is marginal difference between Laramie and the rest of the locations of our conference institutions should at least be examined. This could be as big of a blind spot as any unexamined nepotistic tradition that is alive and well in the halls of power in the state.

Look, we aren't recruiting against bsu, Utah, or tcu anymore. The leftovers have also struggled getting kids for their reasons. Acting like UW is extremely disadvantaged in this band of misfits is ludicrous.

No way should we struggle to find kids that can be competitive in the new MWC. Obviously if peers start to spend a lot on revenue share or NIL, that changes things.