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Study - CFB team value

It's an undeniable fact that bball has been decimated during Burman's tenure. His fault? I imagine that could be debated ad nauseum.

Hindsight is easy, but with the current landscape, it might have been better to pour resources into bball and let football field a team. I like football better, but there was opportunity to build off of rat boy. Instead, it tanked.

Now, from a competitive standpoint, bball might be the sport that still competes at the highest level (ncaa tourney). Granted that might go away but it's clear football is leaving us.
While it's tempting so say that Burman caused all of this...I think the most accurate thing you can say is that his tenure has coincided with extraordinary challenges for college athletics programs that are outside of the perceived main stream. Burman is an empty suit...nobody is going to convince me otherwise, but the idea that there was some otherwise obvious path to athletic relevance that he studiously ignored needs to be challenged. He's making the "safe" choice at nearly every juncture just like every other admin type person tends to do. That would be great if we were the top dog and were just maintaining that position. But we aren't...we suck and need singular extraordinary vision...even given that, it is not guaranteed that things are any better.
 
While it's tempting so say that Burman caused all of this...I think the most accurate thing you can say is that his tenure has coincided with extraordinary challenges for college athletics programs that are outside of the perceived main stream. Burman is an empty suit...nobody is going to convince me otherwise, but the idea that there was some otherwise obvious path to athletic relevance that he studiously ignored needs to be challenged. He's making the "safe" choice at nearly every juncture just like every other admin type person tends to do. That would be great if we were the top dog and were just maintaining that position. But we aren't...we suck and need singular extraordinary vision...even given that, it is not guaranteed that things are any better.
Well, like I said. It could be debated. I will say for Burman directly, he had disastrous bball coach hires and the AA renovation could have been handled better. He's also built an athletic dept where 44% of the budget goes to coaches and office/administration. That's higher percentage-wise than a lot of conference peers. I didn't look at bball funding but it would be interesting to see how he allocated resources over the years. Did bball budget increase at the same percentage as football, for example.

Yes, things changed but there were bad decisions too.
 
Well, like I said. It could be debated. I will say for Burman directly, he had disastrous bball coach hires and the AA renovation could have been handled better. He's also built an athletic dept where 44% of the budget goes to coaches and office/administration. That's higher percentage-wise than a lot of conference peers. I didn't look at bball funding but it would be interesting to see how he allocated resources over the years. Did bball budget increase at the same percentage as football, for example.

Yes, things changed but there were bad decisions too.
The Denver Nuggets fired their coach AND general manager today two years after winning an NBA championship. And with a 47-32 record. I didn't hear a bunch of excuses about how tough it was to compete as an NBA franchise in Denver or how much the NBA has changed. If you are serious about winning you move on when the program / franchise loses. UW athletics is the equivalent of the Colorado Rockies. UW and the state of Wyoming are paying the guy $551,000 a year. For that type of money the expectation is win or you get fired.
 
The same professor just published rankings for CBB

Wyoming ranks 148th ($18m), 9th in the MWC

68. San Diego State ($71m)
75. UNLV ($75m)
101. Nevada ($28m)
104. New Mexico ($27m)
108. Utah State ($26m)
109. Boise State ($26m)
110. Colorado State ($26m)
131. Fresno St ($20m)
148. Wyoming ($18m)
161. SJSU ($15m)
NR Air Force

Future MW members

89. Grand Canyon ($37m)
117. UTEP ($24m)
168. UC Davis ($15m)
297. Hawaii ($9m)


Grand Canyon bball 37 million lmao. That is some funny, ridiculous shit. Invalidates the whole study right there. Comical.

NM I totally read it all wrong. Stupid me
 
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Well, like I said. It could be debated. I will say for Burman directly, he had disastrous bball coach hires and the AA renovation could have been handled better. He's also built an athletic dept where 44% of the budget goes to coaches and office/administration. That's higher percentage-wise than a lot of conference peers. I didn't look at bball funding but it would be interesting to see how he allocated resources over the years. Did bball budget increase at the same percentage as football, for example.

Yes, things changed but there were bad decisions too.
I didn't necessarily mean to debate Burman's merits (or more accurately, his lack thereof).

I just fail to see the golden path not taken during the last 25 years or so. I want UW to be relevant and fun to follow in college athletics and while I can imagine some better outcomes at certain points over that time span....I still can't see us being in a markedly better position. You alluded to the AA renovation... And while I don't argue that it wasn't bungled, the problem with the basketball program not being any good is tangentially related to that if at all.

I just want winning programs...I don't care about the other stuff. If we had a good basketball program and we played in a terrible arena with bad sight lines I would take that in a heartbeat.
 
.I still can't see us being in a markedly better position. You alluded to the AA renovation... And while I don't argue that it wasn't bungled, the problem with the basketball program not being any good is tangentially related to that if at all.
Ignore the AA renovations. That has more to do with attendance at least somewhat. Burman took over a program that was upper 1/3 in terms of attendance within the previous couple of years.

Ask the important questions. How was funding allocated? How did he make coaching decisions? What coaching decisions did he make? Unilaterally? How did he allocate the resources he had? Did he short men's bball in lieu of chasing the football golden goose? If he chased football, did it pay off relative to a potential improvement in bball? Or, did bball funding coincide with football funding on a percentage-wise perspective? Those are very direct. The AD is not just complacent in all of this. Neither is the president or BOT.
 
Wow that was shocking to see us below 100...71 mil was way more than I expected...not bad for a TV market of 1/2 mil or so
 
It would be interesting to know how attendance was affected by the creation of the MW network. I'm old enough to remember that if you wanted to see UW basketball or football, you had to go to the game. Once nearly every game was televised, it sure made it easy to stay home, especially during the Heath era.
 
If I'm not mistaken, we're top 3 or 4 in the conference in non-coaching staff salaries. We spend almost double what usu spends and about 2 mill more per year than csu.

The non-coaching salaries are nearly identical to what we spend on coaches' salaries. We spend more on non-coaching salaries than bsu spends on coaches salaries.
 
Ignore the AA renovations. That has more to do with attendance at least somewhat. Burman took over a program that was upper 1/3 in terms of attendance within the previous couple of years.

Ask the important questions. How was funding allocated? How did he make coaching decisions? What coaching decisions did he make? Unilaterally? How did he allocate the resources he had? Did he short men's bball in lieu of chasing the football golden goose? If he chased football, did it pay off relative to a potential improvement in bball? Or, did bball funding coincide with football funding on a percentage-wise perspective? Those are very direct. The AD is not just complacent in all of this. Neither is the president or BOT.
I think it matters what we as fans focus on.

Fan bases grousing about how athletic departments allocate resources is always controversial. My in-laws are B10 fans ... the criticisms I see of Burman's non-coaching hire decisions sound eerily similar to conversations i hear from them...and these are blue blood athletic departments. Now they get to win a lot of games and have these arguments about resource allocation while we get to lose them. That is the difference. If those guys can (at least according to fan bases and local media) be seen as bureaucratically inept and still be competitive athletically...what are we even talking about? I thought the point was to "compete for titles"

The questions you are calling the "important questions" (except for the ones asking if his coaching hires are good), aren't ever going to lead anywhere. They are too nuanced for the average fan to care about and a lot of them are have answers that are completely defensible. As long as that is where we keep the conversation, the Burman types will keep their positions. But winning is something everybody cares about. Whatever goes in the input side of this equation at the administration, donor, BOT, and legislative level is political and arguable. Nobody argues that the outputs of that system though. I'm in the minority I guess in that I don't really care how the sausage is made...It just needs to be a good sausage and we are getting $h!t on a shingle!
 
I think it matters what we as fans focus on.

Fan bases grousing about how athletic departments allocate resources is always controversial. My in-laws are B10 fans ... the criticisms I see of Burman's non-coaching hire decisions sound eerily similar to conversations i hear from them...and these are blue blood athletic departments. Now they get to win a lot of games and have these arguments about resource allocation while we get to lose them. That is the difference. If those guys can (at least according to fan bases and local media) be seen as bureaucratically inept and still be competitive athletically...what are we even talking about? I thought the point was to "compete for titles"

The questions you are calling the "important questions" (except for the ones asking if his coaching hires are good), aren't ever going to lead anywhere. They are too nuanced for the average fan to care about and a lot of them are have answers that are completely defensible. As long as that is where we keep the conversation, the Burman types will keep their positions. But winning is something everybody cares about. Whatever goes in the input side of this equation at the administration, donor, BOT, and legislative level is political and arguable. Nobody argues that the outputs of that system though. I'm in the minority I guess in that I don't really care how the sausage is made...It just needs to be a good sausage and we are getting $h!t on a shingle!
I generally agree - my only departure from your logic comes on the "input" side of the equation. I see money as the key to success going forward. Without fans and donors that are engaged and motivated, modern programs won't just wither on the vine - they will shrivel up, turn to powder, and blow to Nebraska faster that Fast Eddie can say, "send my wife $500k or lose your job." The reality is that no one is hyped for men's basketball. NO ONE. Students show for football games but avoid the AA like it is radioactive. Attendance for MBB is in the crapper and has been for almost a decade. The admin - both through the reno of the AA and god awful coaching hires - has exacerbated the headwinds we were already facing with NIL and the portal. To be good today at WYO, your execution, hires, and investments have to hit darn near every time. TB, Fast Ed and his predecessors, the BOT, and the rest of the Fraggles in Laramie are batting about .125 as best I can tell.
 
I didn't necessarily mean to debate Burman's merits (or more accurately, his lack thereof).

I just fail to see the golden path not taken during the last 25 years or so. I want UW to be relevant and fun to follow in college athletics and while I can imagine some better outcomes at certain points over that time span....I still can't see us being in a markedly better position. You alluded to the AA renovation... And while I don't argue that it wasn't bungled, the problem with the basketball program not being any good is tangentially related to that if at all.

I just want winning programs...I don't care about the other stuff. If we had a good basketball program and we played in a terrible arena with bad sight lines I would take that in a heartbeat.
We've certainly debated this several times. I haven't been able to find the bball budget from 09 to now but it would be interesting. We disagree on a few things; allocation of resources, imo, can certainly impact a program's success. I would say that, fundraising, and coaching hires are the most direct way an AD influences success.

Interesting side note. When you Google Tom Burman Wyoming, it says former ad above his Pic but obviously says current ad in his bio.
 
A chunk of this discussion is being had as though it is 20 years ago.

Those days are long gone.

The world of Division 1 football and basketball is no longer about recruiting high schoolers and coaching them up for 3 or 4 years. It's about paying good and great players to come play at your school.

I don't know -- but somebody does -- what it takes to assemble a good basketball team at a school like ours. Is it $1mm a year? $2mm? More? Less? But whatever it is, that's what it takes. A football roster will obviously cost even more.

If we can't or won't buy good rosters, that's fine. We'll just be competitive with others who can't or won't.
 
We've certainly debated this several times. I haven't been able to find the bball budget from 09 to now but it would be interesting. We disagree on a few things; allocation of resources, imo, can certainly impact a program's success. I would say that, fundraising, and coaching hires are the most direct way an AD influences success.

Interesting side note. When you Google Tom Burman Wyoming, it says former ad above his Pic but obviously says current ad in his bio.
You are studiously ignoring what I'm trying to point at. I grant you that Burman is not helping things...nobody here seems to be willing to defend him. Also..I will grant you every single esoteric budgetary point you have made. Let's set that aside for a moment. Let's also set aside your focus on the nuances of internal and inter-departmental budget allocation. For the sake of this discussion let's assume that your every darkest suspicion is correct about Burman and his superiors.

Now that we have that out of the way. What is the upper limit of what could have been realistically accomplished over the last 25 or so years? I think it is a lot lower than many here think it is. It's definitely lower than what I thought it was back in the '90s. I think Wyoming could have had a lot more athletic success.....but we all know that college athletics over that span of time became a dollar and market obsessed game that Wyoming was never going to compete well in. Imagine (as difficult as it may be) that Burman in this alternate reality only hires great coaches and makes amazing administrative decisions....That would mean that we lose those coaches quickly and after that repeats a few times, Burman leaves as well. Now let us assume that his replacement is amazing as well. That person continues to find amazing coaches and have them hired away. At some point you still run into NIL and relaxation of transfer rules that mean the talent just won't come or won't stay. Now at least in that made-up best case scenario world, we probably have some championships to show for it...I would have loved that. We still end up here where nobody wants small-market Wyoming in thier conference and we don't have great NIL possibilities to pay for guys to play and stay.

For that gold-plated scenario to have played out, you would have to have incredible luck at so many decision points. I don't know where burman sits in that spectrum of theoretical outcomes...my sense is that he is a replacement level athletic director...the average person that could occupy that chair would have had about the same results.
 
We’re still missing the point: Laramie isn’t a destination. No matter how much we want to believe otherwise, it’s just not.

Everyone’s talking about development, facilities, and NIL, but no one wants to acknowledge the obvious. You’re asking 18-22-year-old "athletes", many from urban or suburban areas, to spend years in one of the most isolated towns in the country.

It’s not just about sports. These kids want a lifestyle: things to do, people to meet, and culture. When you’re recruiting against places like San Diego, Fort Collins, or Boise, Wyoming is at a disadvantage before you even start the conversation.

You can have the best weight room and culture, but if kids can't picture themselves living there good luck. This isn’t the ‘90s anymore. Gen Z wants wins, exposure, and a social life. That’s not a knock on Wyoming; it’s the reality of the landscape.

Also, the Denver comparison is lazy as shit. The NBA is a closed, professional league with salary caps, luxury taxes, and revenue sharing to create parity. College football? No cap on what schools or boosters can throw at NIL. No draft to level the playing field. No real mechanisms to help the have-nots. Comparing Wyoming to a pro team with billion-dollar resources is a huge reach.


Expectations can’t be the same. College football has never been fair, and now it’s even less so.
 
. We still end up here where nobody wants small-market Wyoming in thier conference and we don't have great NIL possibilities to pay for guys to play and stay.
I agree with a lot but not this. Sustained success in sports builds programs, donations, etc. Fans are fickle. There is no way to know what winning could generate at WYO; we've never won. Rat boy had the AA rocking for a few years so potential is there.
 
We’re still missing the point: Laramie isn’t a destination. No matter how much we want to believe otherwise, it’s just not.

Everyone’s talking about development, facilities, and NIL, but no one wants to acknowledge the obvious. You’re asking 18-22-year-old "athletes", many from urban or suburban areas, to spend years in one of the most isolated towns in the country.

It’s not just about sports. These kids want a lifestyle: things to do, people to meet, and culture. When you’re recruiting against places like San Diego, Fort Collins, or Boise, Wyoming is at a disadvantage before you even start the conversation.

You can have the best weight room and culture, but if kids can't picture themselves living there good luck. This isn’t the ‘90s anymore. Gen Z wants wins, exposure, and a social life. That’s not a knock on Wyoming; it’s the reality of the landscape.

Also, the Denver comparison is lazy as shit. The NBA is a closed, professional league with salary caps, luxury taxes, and revenue sharing to create parity. College football? No cap on what schools or boosters can throw at NIL. No draft to level the playing field. No real mechanisms to help the have-nots. Comparing Wyoming to a pro team with billion-dollar resources is a huge reach.


Expectations can’t be the same. College football has never been fair, and now it’s even less so.
If we're willing to play the game, NIL might actually help in this regard. Money talks.
 
We’re still missing the point: Laramie isn’t a destination. No matter how much we want to believe otherwise, it’s just not.

Everyone’s talking about development, facilities, and NIL, but no one wants to acknowledge the obvious. You’re asking 18-22-year-old "athletes", many from urban or suburban areas, to spend years in one of the most isolated towns in the country.

It’s not just about sports. These kids want a lifestyle: things to do, people to meet, and culture. When you’re recruiting against places like San Diego, Fort Collins, or Boise, Wyoming is at a disadvantage before you even start the conversation.

You can have the best weight room and culture, but if kids can't picture themselves living there good luck. This isn’t the ‘90s anymore. Gen Z wants wins, exposure, and a social life. That’s not a knock on Wyoming; it’s the reality of the landscape.

Also, the Denver comparison is lazy as shit. The NBA is a closed, professional league with salary caps, luxury taxes, and revenue sharing to create parity. College football? No cap on what schools or boosters can throw at NIL. No draft to level the playing field. No real mechanisms to help the have-nots. Comparing Wyoming to a pro team with billion-dollar resources is a huge reach.


Expectations can’t be the same. College football has never been fair, and now it’s even less so.
The way you sell Laramie is not to the players but to their parents. Small town, less distractions from education, close knit community etc. The fact is however that the player will want to go wherever they see the chance to play/start and for the most money. Wyoming can offer lots of the former but very little in the grand scheme of things when it comes to money.
 
The way you sell Laramie is not to the players but to their parents. Small town, less distractions from education, close knit community etc. The fact is however that the player will want to go wherever they see the chance to play/start and for the most money. Wyoming can offer lots of the former but very little in the grand scheme of things when it comes to money.
Might I interject that Laramie is comparable to Missoula, Bozeman, Fargo, Pocatello, Idaho Falls, Ogden, Sioux Falls, etc. A move to the Big Sky would make sense both competitively and financially. How can others not see that?
 

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