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[Poke in New England]

My understanding of the school choice debate is that it is completely orthogonal to Wyoming. Isn't it more of a big deal in urban areas with lots options or the possibility of lots of options? I don't think the charter school industry is trying real hard in places like Lander or Wheatland. That's just my understanding of it.

Living in the Northeast, it really is the case that what block you live on will make every difference in the education you receive. Being on the wrong side of the train tracks you will be zoned into a school that is absolute garbage all around. I'm talking the building is crumbling, no HVAC, violence, teachers in over their heads, and an environment of failure where sometimes fewer than 1 in 5 kids can read at their grade level. Charter schools will come in and say we want to take kids from these communities and give them a better chance, and the local politicians will do whatever they can to kneecap this effort, because the unions want them to. It really is a scandal.

In Wyoming it really isn't the same. In Casper effectively you didn't have neighborhood schools. While some had a waitlist, generally you could go across town to enroll in a different school if it was a better fit. Some parents wanted their kids at schools like Ft. Casper, which was a much stricter environment.

You can see that Wyoming students perform well on national assessments compared to other states. Teachers are paid well there. Per student spending is high. There are not powerful unions or other interests that can veto necessary changes out of hand. There is nothing suggesting that a full-scale blowup up the system is needed there.

 

[Brew_Poke]

Interesting, but the PBJ buyout is insurmountable....

Dude, I've been trying for months, but can't figure it out. Why do you refer to Sawvel as PBJ?

 

[Bryoming]

Dude, I've been trying for months, but can't figure it out. Why do you refer to Sawvel as PBJ?

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Dude, I've been trying for months, but can't figure it out. Why do you refer to Sawvel as PBJ?

He's the P.romote B.ohl J.unior hire.

A few snarky posts (not from you) in 3, 2, ....

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Hmmm, you mean like illicit comments about other's wives? You're a beacon of professionalism.

 

[Brew_Poke]

He's the P.romote B.ohl J.unior hire.

A few snarky posts (not from you) in 3, 2, ....

Well, now I know.

 

[307bball]

Disagree. Not asking these questions then opens doors for the fringe lunatics to exploit the vacuum that is left.

Sternberg started to try to ask questions and was promptly run out of the state.

Got distracted from this discussion with some of the other topics...wanted to circle back.

I'm curious what it is you disagree with here. Your statement about not asking "these questions" makes my think you believe I'm advocating for not having some sort of evaluation of efforts...that is not my aim. I'm pointing out that even well intentioned questions can be (and nowadays almost always are) co-opted by bad-faith actors whose goals are hidden from the people who are "just asking questions". Oredigger lays this out pretty nicely with his explanation of movements of the freedom caucus.

There are people who really want to "burn it down" and they will use the answers to the questions that the "just asking questions" crowd ignorantly ask to do just that. If everybody wanted a strong school system that was publicly funded in the state of Wyoming there would be not much threat in asking any question you can think of. The problem is that is not the case.

The solution to this predicament is a political one. You bring up Sternberg a lot. He ultimately failed. However much you respect what his goals were...they were not accomplished. I don't have any reason to doubt what you have said about his report and what he was trying to accomplish....and maybe he was dead correct. It doesn't matter. If you fail politically you fail just as surely as if you had made the wrong policy. Being right and an 4$$h0le ends up being about the same as just being wrong.

So...the way forward cannot be to sweep anything under the rug, but it also can't be to shy away from rigorous evaluations of systems that are allergic to change....you just have to do it well. That is the needle to thread. The political rhetoric either supports that effort or it damages it. Currently it's very damaging.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

If you fail politically you fail just as surely as if you had made the wrong policy. Being right and an 4$$h0le ends up being about the same as just being wrong.

You use this in reference to Sternberg but fail to see the irony as it relates to UW and public education in the state. It looks to me like UW and public education failed politically.

That's the point. The vacuum of not addressing the national concerns of the right in a highly conservative state will inevitably open the door for things like freedom caucus power.

At the end of the day, I'm guessing this is much ado about nothing. You're the first to point the insurmountable challenges for UW despite every effort. I see no reason why it should not work in the other direction as well. For public education, I doubt a significant percentage of students leave public schools for other options due to vouchers (again, unless a certain church decides to throw its hat in the ring).

 

[307bball]

You use this in reference to Sternberg but fail to see the irony as it relates to UW and public education in the state. It looks to me like UW and public education failed politically.

That's the point. The vacuum of not addressing the national concerns of the right in a highly conservative state will inevitably open the door for things like freedom caucus power.

At the end of the day, I'm guessing this is much ado about nothing. You're the first to point the insurmountable challenges for UW despite every effort. I see no reason why it should not work in the other direction as well. For public education, I doubt a significant percentage of students leave public schools for other options due to vouchers (again, unless a certain church decides to throw its hat in the ring).

You said...."It looks to me like UW and public education failed politically." I think I would agree....but the way forward is to quit failing, politically or otherwise. The answer to political failure cannot just be more political failure. (I mean... I guess it can but you don't end up anywhere.)

There are a billion ways to fail, the only way to succeed is to not do any of them. Just because the person on the other side of a disagreement fails in some way does not excuse your failure in the same way.

 

[TheRealUW]

If school vouchers come to pass, I think it will become readily apparent that "good schools" are only good because they have mostly good students and "bad schools" are only bad because they have mostly bad students.

Private schools are often considered to be better than public schools simply because they have a financial hurdle that has to be cleared to attend them. Because of this, they tend to attract students from more financially stable households. These households tend to have more successful parents, have both parents in the home, and parents that are actively engaged in their child's education. It is no surprise that these students, on average, perform very well in the classroom.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

You said...."It looks to me like UW and public education failed politically." I think I would agree....but the way forward is to quit failing, politically or otherwise. The answer to political failure cannot just be more political failure. (I mean... I guess it can but you don't end up anywhere.)

There are a billion ways to fail, the only way to succeed is to not do any of them. Just because the person on the other side of a disagreement fails in some way does not excuse your failure in the same way.

I guess we'll see if the freedom caucus approach fails. We assume it will. Certainly will be revealed in time.

 

[307bball]

I guess we'll see if the freedom caucus approach fails. We assume it will. Certainly will be revealed in time.

If public education crashes and burns in Wyoming there are some who label that as success and some who label that as failure. I am not convinced that when we say that the words "success" or "failure" that we are talking about the same thing.

The goal of the Freedom caucus may be a very diminished University and public education system. If they pull it off and those institutions crumble they will call that success. Those who value those same institutions want to reform and strengthen them and will call that failure. Who is right?

 

[ragtimejoe1]

If public education crashes and burns in Wyoming there are some who label that as success and some who label that as failure. I am not convinced that when we say that the words "success" or "failure" that we are talking about the same thing.

The goal of the Freedom caucus may be a very diminished University and public education system. If they pull it off and those institutions crumble they will call that success. Those who value those same institutions want to reform and strengthen them and will call that failure. Who is right?

I honestly haven't read that the freedom caucus wants to eliminate all education in states? That seems to be a perspective of what some perceive to be the agenda. Removing federal involvement? I think that's definitely stated. Cutting budgets is definitely stated. Eliminating education? Maybe. I guess I haven't read that and I don't think vouchers will crash and burn WYO education. They'll add a little cost so I think the freedom caucus is misguided on the cost savings idea.

What if education becomes more efficient, lower cost, and improved student performance? I don't think it will just like I don't think throwing more money at it will improve it substantially. However, saying the freedom caucus wants to eliminate education is your perception of their agenda. They clearly think education is infiltrated with left-wing propaganda and have clearly stated they want to root that (whatever it is) out. They won and now get a crack at it.

We'll see soon enough if the chicken little prognostication is correct or not. I'm guessing like all politics money gets moved and those that lost will squeal while those that gained will be happy with very little change. I predict not 1 school in WYO will be decimated in 5 years.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

I predict not 1 school in WYO will be decimated in 5 years.

Does closing its doors count as ‘decimated’? If so - I will gladly take that bet

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Does closing its doors count as ‘decimated’? If so - I will gladly take that bet

How many schools will close in the next 5 years as a result of the freedom caucus? Relatively minor redistricting doesn't count. By minor, let's say combining schools within a 15 mile radius of each other or something like that.

 

[307bball]

I honestly haven't read that the freedom caucus wants to eliminate all education in states? That seems to be a perspective of what some perceive to be the agenda. Removing federal involvement? I think that's definitely stated. Cutting budgets is definitely stated. Eliminating education? Maybe. I guess I haven't read that and I don't think vouchers will crash and burn WYO education. They'll add a little cost so I think the freedom caucus is misguided on the cost savings idea.

What if education becomes more efficient, lower cost, and improved student performance? I don't think it will just like I don't think throwing more money at it will improve it substantially. However, saying the freedom caucus wants to eliminate education is your perception of their agenda. They clearly think education is infiltrated with left-wing propaganda and have clearly stated they want to root that (whatever it is) out. They won and now get a crack at it.

We'll see soon enough if the chicken little prognostication is correct or not. I'm guessing like all politics money gets moved and those that lost will squeal while those that gained will be happy with very little change. I predict not 1 school in WYO will be decimated in 5 years.

I would believe that their goal is to have more efficient, lower cost education with improved student performance if that was their messaging. I'm hearing a lot about "cutting waste" and not much about improving any kind of outcomes. I'm not very good at predictions...but I'm very skeptical that the freedom caucus sweeping into legislative power in Wyoming is the harbinger of an economic and political heyday.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I'm not very good at predictions...but I'm very skeptical that the freedom caucus sweeping into legislative power in Wyoming is the harbinger of an economic and political heyday.

To take a page from your book, I'm very skeptical that any caucus/party sweeping into legislative power in Wyoming is the harbinger of an economic and political heyday.

 

[307bball]

To take a page from your book, I'm very skeptical that any caucus/party sweeping into legislative power in Wyoming is the harbinger of an economic and political heyday.

Ha!...as usual we end up looking at the same coin from different sides.

No matter how you slice it...I don't see a pending upswing of almost any outcomes in Wyoming. You can characterize that as "chicken little" if you want to I suppose....but I'm not saying it's going crash and burn necessarily. It's more of a "managed decline" sort of thing.

One thing I continue to notice is that efforts that "rock the boat", like spending money on a super bowl ad are the target of a lot of conversation. I've read many appeals to "think outside the box" and when they actually do, oftentimes the effort is ridiculed. I guess the same thing applies to whatever the freedom caucus does...they will definitely break a lot of eggs. Will they create a nice omelette? I doubt it.

 

[bullbugle307]

The vast majority of you guys griping about the freedom caucus and their ilk crack me up. This is what most of you wanted.

Sorry if it took you this long to realize they don't give a hoot about Wyoming, other than to muck up our politics with their culture war crap to try and make a name for themselves.

As a whole, this state deserves every bit of the trouble we have coming. Maybe people will think a little more about who they pick to represent them next time. Some of you certainly need to take a long hard look in the mirror. At least go back and read some of your old posts. Not hard to see how we got here.

 

[307bball]

The vast majority of you guys griping about the freedom caucus and their ilk crack me up. This is what most of you wanted.

Sorry if it took you this long to realize they don't give a hoot about Wyoming, other than to muck up our politics with their culture war crap to try and make a name for themselves.

As a whole, this state deserves every bit of the trouble we have coming. Maybe people will think a little more about who they pick to represent them next time. Some of you certainly need to take a long hard look in the mirror. At least go back and read some of your old posts. Not hard to see how we got here.

I don't get the sense there are ton of freedom caucus supporters here but my meter isn't great.