UW Superbowl Ad

[OrediggerPoke]

By what metric? Not being an ass, but, seriously what will be the return for the money? If it's just exposure, then what's the effect of exposure?

The way it should be evaluated is percentage increase in students enrolled from the target markets year over year and compared to the average marketing cost per enrolled student. Whatever the University had been doing marketing wise was clearly not working.

For anyone following, this really isn’t about sports I don’t believe. The University is absolutely failing as enrollment continues to suffer and as state money dries up. Out of state students are Wyoming’s best bet not to die on the vine.

 

[307bball]

Continually looking to the past as baselines, trends, or whatever is futile. The game has changed academically, athletically, etc. Old people looking at old ways for new problems is the problem.

We also use per capita as the excuse for low attendance. Well, per capita we generate roughly 3x more tax revenue per resident than TX. With a little belt tightening and vision, we have the resources to build fantastic investment accounts which can provide long-term annual returns to supplement budgets. We could strategically use toll roads to capitalize on tourism and interstate traffic. We have technology for passes for local traffic. It's a real possibility that UW will have to reduce offerings of more degrees but invest heavily in strengths. That goes for sports too. I've said it before, the sports department needs an honest and thorough outside cost-benefit review. The mission of UW is that of a Land-grant not that of sports trophies unless those trophies aid in the Land-grant mission. Maybe leveraging hapc and limited NIL for Olympic sports isn't as sexy but is better for the overall mission? I have no idea but it's time to ask hard questions.

It goes on on but there's not a clear focus and strategic plan in place for the things that can be controlled.

What you are describing is definitely some version of a managed decline of UW athletics which is happening whether we like it or not. One of the things that is getting exposed in this discussion is that the results we have seen in UW athletics is downstream of a lot of economic stagnation in the State of Wyoming. That stagnation is everywhere in primarily rural areas...since Wyoming has no real urban centers to speak of...it's all pretty bleak.

I'm not trying to cut down your suggestions at all...I think they are worth talking about for sure. The topics of "how to succeed and what does success look like" has different specific answers if you aim that question at UW athletics or if you aim it at general Wyoming economic health.

I don't think you are intending to make the solutions to the challenges that UW faces seem trivial...but when you describe them and say ".....we have the resources to build fantastic investment accounts which can provide long-term annual returns to supplement budgets.", you are not acknowledging the opportunity cost of doing something else with those resources. What you are describing is also actually the easy part. Getting the electorate and their representatives to buy in to a plan is actually the part that all of these "technically" sound plans fail at. This is an example of a classic "collective action" problem. If the state of Wyoming were a private entity, those in charge could simply decree a direction and it would succeed or fail on the merits of that direction (I'm oversimplifying in the interest of brevity). Since the State of Wyoming is not a private entity, any kind of sweeping (or even minor) new approach to revenue generation is always going face unexpected and fierce headwinds. Again...you are probably completely aware of this stuff .... the format of this forum is great but it makes some back and forth harder.

This discussion tends to produce accusations that the mere observation of these effects is a defense of the status quo....that could not be further from the truth. These things are as predictable as gravity. You can ignore them if you want to...but if somebody rails against them and acts like people are dumb if they don't share their particular set of priorities, that person will get about as much success fighting against gravity.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

The way it should be evaluated is percentage increase in students enrolled from the target markets year over year and compared to the average marketing cost per enrolled student. Whatever the University had been doing marketing wise was clearly not working.

For anyone following, this really isn’t about sports I don’t believe. The University is absolutely failing as enrollment continues to suffer and as state money dries up. Out of state students are Wyoming’s best bet not to die on the vine.

Seems reasonable. I'll bet the data is never collected or we never see it. That was the equivalent of what, 75, 4-year full ride scholarships?

 

[ragtimejoe1]

What you are describing is definitely some version of a managed decline of UW athletics which is happening whether we like it or not. One of the things that is getting exposed in this discussion is that the results we have seen in UW athletics is downstream of a lot of economic stagnation in the State of Wyoming. That stagnation is everywhere in primarily rural areas...since Wyoming has no real urban centers to speak of...it's all pretty bleak.

I'm not trying to cut down your suggestions at all...I think they are worth talking about for sure. The topics of "how to succeed and what does success look like" has different specific answers if you aim that question at UW athletics or if you aim it at general Wyoming economic health.

I don't think you are intending to make the solutions to the challenges that UW faces seem trivial...but when you describe them and say ".....we have the resources to build fantastic investment accounts which can provide long-term annual returns to supplement budgets.", you are not acknowledging the opportunity cost of doing something else with those resources. What you are describing is also actually the easy part. Getting the electorate and their representatives to buy in to a plan is actually the part that all of these "technically" sound plans fail at. This is an example of a classic "collective action" problem. If the state of Wyoming were a private entity, those in charge could simply decree a direction and it would succeed or fail on the merits of that direction (I'm oversimplifying in the interest of brevity). Since the State of Wyoming is not a private entity, any kind of sweeping (or even minor) new approach to revenue generation is always going face unexpected and fierce headwinds. Again...you are probably completely aware of this stuff .... the format of this forum is great but it makes some back and forth harder.

This discussion tends to produce accusations that the mere observation of these effects is a defense of the status quo....that could not be further from the truth. These things are as predictable as gravity. You can ignore them if you want to...but if somebody rails against them and acts like people are dumb if they don't share their particular set of priorities, that person will get about as much success fighting against gravity.

I'm not ignoring the existence of uncontrollable factors nor do I think it's worth focusing on them. Ideifying and understanding them? Sure. Ends there.

The question remains: is UW (I guess and the state) doing the best it can do despite these challenges? To be sure it takes many good people in leadership spots to review all these issues.

For UW, it seems the central philosophy is build buildings and they will come or spend 2 mill on an ad and they will come. Those are strategies that are controlled but maybe not the most efficient/effective use of money. If the local population isn't enough to sustain enrollment growth, get more boots on the ground and stronger people relationships on the front range. Have the number of CO students increased with CO population increase? 2 mill to study how we could be more effective in the region that provides 1/4 of the students, I think would be more fruitful than a Super Bowl ad. Maybe not, but the point isn't how to fix every single thing with example ideas. It all boils down to the question "is UW doing the best it can do with the resources it has to fulfill the Land-grant mission?" I suspect an honest and professional review would say no, but the thorough review would be a good place to start.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Seems reasonable. I'll bet the data is never collected or we never see it. That was the equivalent of what, 75, 4-year full ride scholarships?

20.

Tuition and fees cost roughly $25K per year now for out of state students not counting room and board costs. Assuming 4 years per student, that equals roughly $100K per student in tuition and fees.

Realistically, the university needs to add an additional 1000 out of state freshman per year over current numbers to simply maintain what we have in regards of funding for faculty and simple building operation and maintenance.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Seems reasonable. I'll bet the data is never collected or we never see it. That was the equivalent of what, 75, 4-year full ride scholarships?

Also - incoming freshman numbers by state are publicly reported every year by the admissions office. I believe marketing costs are also reported on the balance sheet. So - any person with a computer should be able to do the evaluation by comparing prior year’s enrollment data against the markets the advertisement was displayed in.

 

[307bball]

I'm not ignoring the existence of uncontrollable factors nor do I think it's worth focusing on them. Ideifying and understanding them? Sure. Ends there.

The question remains: is UW (I guess and the state) doing the best it can do despite these challenges? To be sure it takes many good people in leadership spots to review all these issues.

For UW, it seems the central philosophy is build buildings and they will come or spend 2 mill on an ad and they will come. Those are strategies that are controlled but maybe not the most efficient/effective use of money. If the local population isn't enough to sustain enrollment growth, get more boots on the ground and stronger people relationships on the front range. Have the number of CO students increased with CO population increase? 2 mill to study how we could be more effective in the region that provides 1/4 of the students, I think would be more fruitful than a Super Bowl ad. Maybe not, but the point isn't how to fix every single thing with example ideas. It all boils down to the question "is UW doing the best it can do with the resources it has to fulfill the Land-grant mission?" I suspect an honest and professional review would say no, but the thorough review would be a good place to start.

As I said...I suspect that there is plenty you are not saying (after all .... you can't say everything). Identifying and understanding the headwinds that an organization face is anything but trivial. It's one of those things that, if not done well, will cause failure.

I do take issue with the question you pose though. "Is UW doing the best it can do with the resources it has to fulfill the Land-grant mission?".... this answer will always be no. It's questions like these that people like the freedom caucus types use to bludgeon people into submission. These are bad questions that bad actors use in bad faith. I'm not saying you are doing this, but implied in this question is something that is impossible. Even on an individual level there will be things we should have known better about or done differently. The decision to spend the $$ on the super bowl ad is a microcosm of this ... Was it a bad way to spend that money?...Maybe that answer is yes (you and I, at least, are skeptical). The reason that answer could be yes is not because UW "could" have spent that money more effectively since that is true for every penny that UW has ever spent.

Again, I'm not trying to single you out or tell you that you are just dumb for wanting these things to be evaluated.....I just thing the conversation around this has to get better for any outcome to get better. I'm probably not helping

 

[OrediggerPoke]

. If the local population isn't enough to sustain enrollment growth…

That’s the problem. The university can’t afford to sustain enrollment with Wyoming students under the current model and level of expected legislative funding. It’s a losing proposition to fill the University with Wyoming students when in state tuition and fees is $7200 per year compared to $25K for out of state students.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Also - incoming freshman numbers by state are publicly reported every year by the admissions office. I believe marketing costs are also reported on the balance sheet. So - any person with a computer should be able to do the evaluation by comparing prior year’s enrollment data against the markets the advertisement was displayed in.

Fair enough. I guess I should have said, I doubt it is revisited by those in charge.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

That’s the problem. The university can’t afford to sustain enrollment with Wyoming students under the current model and level of expected legislative funding. It’s a losing proposition to fill the University with Wyoming students when in state tuition and fees is $7200 per year compared to $25K for out of state students.

Is there some agreement with neighboring states to keep out of state so high for non-border states? Do out of state students cost uw more or is UW's cost 25k per student then the state subsidizes the difference for in-state students?

I'm sure it's complicated but reducing costs for out of state and international students seems like an avenue to get more of them.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I do take issue with the question you pose though. "Is UW doing the best it can do with the resources it has to fulfill the Land-grant mission?".... this answer will always be no. It's questions like these that people like the freedom caucus types use to bludgeon people into submission. These are bad questions that bad actors use in bad faith. I'm not saying you are doing this, but implied in this question is something that is impossible.

Disagree. Not asking these questions then opens doors for the fringe lunatics to exploit the vacuum that is left.

Sternberg started to try to ask questions and was promptly run out of the state.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Is there some agreement with neighboring states to keep out of state so high for non-border states? Do out of state students cost uw more or is UW's cost 25k per student then the state subsidizes the difference for in-state students?

I'm sure it's complicated but reducing costs for out of state and international students seems like an avenue to get more of them.

Article 7 Section 16 of the Wyoming Constitution requires education at the University to be nearly free as possible. This has been construed as applying to residents of the State of Wyoming and not out of state students.

The legislature just authorizes a chunk of money every year to go the university which it believes will satisfy this requirement (along with Hathaway funds). This only works if the legislature actually appropriates money based on an objective model of how much money it will take to meet the constitutional requirement and to maintain current level of education offered. The current freedom caucus led approach is simply to withhold and cut money because after all…ask every member of the freedom caucus and they will tell you that they are ‘strict constitutionalists’ even though most haven’t even read Article 7 of the Wyoming Constitution.

 

[307bball]

Article 7 Section 16 of the Wyoming Constitution requires education at the University to be nearly free as possible. This has been construed as applying to residents of the State of Wyoming and not out of state students.

The legislature just authorizes a chunk of money every year to go the university which it believes will satisfy this requirement (along with Hathaway funds). This only works if the legislature actually appropriates money based on an objective model of how much money it will take to meet the constitutional requirement and to maintain current level of education offered. The current freedom caucus led approach is simply to withhold and cut money because after all…ask every member of the freedom caucus and they will tell you that they are ‘strict constitutionalists’ even though most haven’t even read Article 7 of the Wyoming Constitution.

This dovetails with the parallel discussion I am having with Ragtime. Can you honestly answer yes to the question "Is that the best use of the money?". It's a terrible question and the freedom caucus types are wielding it disingenuously. It would be far better to discuss state support of the University and if that is a priority or not. I suspect Wyoming-ites do want to support the university and would put their money where their mouth is. But if you get stuck just asking if there is a better use for every dollar that goes anywhere...you just end up stuck.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

This dovetails with the parallel discussion I am having with Ragtime. Can you honestly answer yes to the question "Is that the best use of the money?".

I don’t think the University has any other option but to think of outside the box ideas to get more out of state students. It’s clear with the current freedom caucus, they would (and many have publicly stated) prefer to defund the entire university. They are slowly achieving this goal (along with public secondary education) damned be what the Wyoming Constitution says. I’ve actually never heard a single freedom member caucus cite to the legislature’s funding obligation under Article 7. Not a single time.

Whether the $2 million on the ad was the prudent marketing alternative, no one can answer that until objective evidence is examined years later. But I can’t blame the decision makers for taking a bold move when their hands have been tied. I am person that at least prefers to go down fighting and not just rolling over.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Article 7 Section 16 of the Wyoming Constitution requires education at the University to be nearly free as possible. This has been construed as applying to residents of the State of Wyoming and not out of state students.

The legislature just authorizes a chunk of money every year to go the university which it believes will satisfy this requirement (along with Hathaway funds). This only works if the legislature actually appropriates money based on an objective model of how much money it will take to meet the constitutional requirement and to maintain current level of education offered. The current freedom caucus led approach is simply to withhold and cut money because after all…ask every member of the freedom caucus and they will tell you that they are ‘strict constitutionalists’ even though most haven’t even read Article 7 of the Wyoming Constitution.

Is the 25k out of state UW's actual cost then? Since there is a relatively steady resident student population covering the existing costs (with state support as you point out), then does it truly cost 25k to add 1 out of state student?

Really, imo, the only way to get more out of state and international students is to substantially reduce their cost. That may not be possible due to the actual cost to the university?

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Is the 25k out of state UW's actual cost then? Since there is a relatively steady resident student population covering the existing costs (with state support as you point out), then does it truly cost 25k to add 1 out of state student?

Really, imo, the only way to get more out of state and international students is to substantially reduce their cost. That may not be possible due to the actual cost to the university?

I believe when you look at a current accounting spreadsheet of cost per student it is higher than $25K. I don’t have that number off the top but I’m sure it is reported somewhere. But you help make ends meet the more $25K students you bring in opposed to $7K students and you make money if you can bring in the students without adding too many more additional faculty and staff.

Traditionally, the University tried to make out of state tuition and fees cost roughly on par with in state costs at neighboring states (ie how much does it cost a Colorado student to attend CU/CSU).

 

[307bball]

I don’t think the University has any other option but to think of outside the box ideas to get more out of state students. It’s clear with the current freedom caucus, they would (and many have publicly stated) prefer to defund the entire university. They are slowly achieving this goal (along with public secondary education) damned be what the Wyoming Constitution says. I’ve actually never heard a single freedom member caucus cite to the legislature’s funding obligation under Article 7. Not a single time.

Whether the $2 million on the ad was the prudent marketing alternative, no one can answer that until objective evidence is examined years later. But I can’t blame the decision makers for taking a bold move when their hands have been tied. I am person that at least prefers to go down fighting and not just rolling over.

One of the things that you are seeing right now in government is a real singular focus on ROI. If you are running an investment firm....great, let that be your focus. However, analysis of public institutions that center ROI miss the point. What is the point of a state university? To what level is that worth burdening taxpayers? These are all questions whose answers are revealed by legislative spending priorities. The freedom caucus seems like they desire some form of libertarianism that is pretty novel, at least in modern times. I would have a lot less concern if there were people that were making some form of noise like Ragtime has...at least he has some sort of vision beyond just stop investing in public institutions.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

One of the things that you are seeing right now in government is a real singular focus on ROI. If you are running an investment firm....great, let that be your focus. However, analysis of public institutions that center ROI miss the point. What is the point of a state university? To what level is that worth burdening taxpayers? These are all questions whose answers are revealed by legislative spending priorities. The freedom caucus seems like they desire some form of libertarianism that is pretty novel, at least in modern times. I would have a lot less concern if there were people that were making some form of noise like Ragtime has...at least he has some sort of vision beyond just stop investing in public institutions.

I see it more simplistically. Freedom caucus leadership is largely not from Wyoming and has no connection to the University nor the founding ideals of the state which led to an emphasis in the Wyoming Constitution on public education.

They largely see the University expenditures as an easy and quick way to reduce their comparatively very small tax commitment to the state (only Alaska has a lower overall tax). They largely see the University as an attack on their religion because it doesn’t teach a Christian based ‘creationism’ as part of its science curriculum. And they largely disagree with any thought and discussion freedoms which don’t align with their personal beliefs.

 

[307bball]

I see it more simplistically. Freedom caucus leadership is largely not from Wyoming and has no connection to the University nor the founding ideals of the state which led to an emphasis in the Wyoming Constitution on public education.

They largely see the University expenditures as an easy and quick way to reduce their comparatively very small tax commitment to the state (only Alaska has a lower overall tax). They largely see the University as an attack on their religion because it doesn’t teach a Christian based ‘creationism’ as part of its science curriculum. And they largely disagree with any thought and discussion freedoms which don’t align with their personal beliefs.

Hmm...That is fascinating. Would you say that group is being used by corporate interests?

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Hmm...That is fascinating. Would you say that group is being used by corporate interests?

Their instruction comes from DC. It’s all tied to extreme wealthy interests. The local members are largely the pawns that implement the extreme wealthy interests (many unknowingly). If you look at the bills the group brings forward in the legislature, they are carbon copies of the bills the national freedom caucus party attempts to advance in most states. They are finding success in Wyoming because they have secured the majority and have a TON of funding to put out half truths at best and just patently false information as a typical operating practice. Wyoming has never seen, until recently, the type of out of state wealth influencing local elections. Most people have no idea what’s going on right now and in a few years it will be too late when the local small town schools have shuttered their doors for good.