Vaccine Requirements are Getting Out of Hand

[Bryoming]

This vaccine debate really boils down to personal health vs. public health.

Most of the time, vaccines are beneficial for both personal and public health. Take, for example, the Tdap vaccine - the risks of the vaccine itself are low (although not zero) while the risks of suffering from pertussis/tetanus/diptheria are high. It makes sense for almost every single person to get the Tdap vaccine. It has significant benefit to both the person and the public while carrying very low risk. As such, you hear very little arguing regarding the Tdap vaccine.

The trouble begins when you look at vaccines that are primarily beneficial for the public, but may not be particularly beneficial for given individuals. This is where the COVID vaccine falls. For the average healthy 30 year old, you can definitely argue that the benefits of the COVID vaccine are pretty minimal for this person and there are potential/real risks, especially with a vaccine we have limited data on. However, from a public health perspective, the more people who acquire a vaccine, and it's resulting immunity, the better it is for the general population.

This results in people arguing both sides of the isle.

Person 1: "I'm healthy and COVID poses very little risk to me, and it has been documented as causing cardiac issues. Therefore, I'm not taking it". = Personal Health Argument

Person 2: "Everyone, including younger healthy people, should get the vaccine because it will lessen the amount of COVID virus in the community, thereby protecting our older more vulnerable populations. Therefore, I'm getting the COVID vaccine". = Public Health Argument

Both of these people are right. They are just making an argument from different angles. Unfortunately, this realization does not help resolve the argument. But it should at least make each side realize that the opposite side is not composed of complete idiots as they might be prone to claim.

This is the best layout of this argument that I've seen. The big knock on the COVID vaccine is that it didn't significantly curb the spread of the virus like the tDap and MMR vaccines do. I can admit that I was fully on board with the public health argument when we were in the throes of the pandemic, but as time has gone on I'm recognizing the personal health aspect that others held and respecting it, even though I do not persoanlly agree.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

This vaccine debate really boils down to personal health vs. public health.

Most of the time, vaccines are beneficial for both personal and public health. Take, for example, the Tdap vaccine - the risks of the vaccine itself are low (although not zero) while the risks of suffering from pertussis/tetanus/diptheria are high. It makes sense for almost every single person to get the Tdap vaccine. It has significant benefit to both the person and the public while carrying very low risk. As such, you hear very little arguing regarding the Tdap vaccine.

The trouble begins when you look at vaccines that are primarily beneficial for the public, but may not be particularly beneficial for given individuals. This is where the COVID vaccine falls. For the average healthy 30 year old, you can definitely argue that the benefits of the COVID vaccine are pretty minimal for this person and there are potential/real risks, especially with a vaccine we have limited data on. However, from a public health perspective, the more people who acquire a vaccine, and it's resulting immunity, the better it is for the general population.

This results in people arguing both sides of the isle.

Person 1: "I'm healthy and COVID poses very little risk to me, and it has been documented as causing cardiac issues. Therefore, I'm not taking it". = Personal Health Argument

Person 2: "Everyone, including younger healthy people, should get the vaccine because it will lessen the amount of COVID virus in the community, thereby protecting our older more vulnerable populations. Therefore, I'm getting the COVID vaccine". = Public Health Argument

Both of these people are right. They are just making an argument from different angles. Unfortunately, this realization does not help resolve the argument. But it should at least make each side realize that the opposite side is not composed of complete idiots as they might be prone to claim.

I'm not sure the data supports the public health narrative.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39283431

 

['PokeForLife]

The COVID vaccine has done a lot of damage to public health. Everyone has heard about the measles outbreak this year with the epicenter being exactly where I am with my young kids (who can't be fully vaccinated to it) right now. Not as many have heard about how bad the whooping cough is though, and THAT is a bad illness even if measles isn't seen as so severe. Just wait til diptheria makes a comeback. Or people are getting lockjaw after getting some puncture wound and refuse to get a tetanus booster.

I believe this is (one) direct result from a botched rollout of an untested mRNA vaccine that we didn't have appropriate safety signals on. Now people won't get their kids the TDAP and MMR vaccines because they are being lumped in with the COVID shot in peoples' minds. And now people are refusing vitamin K shots for infants?? I sure hope we don't see an uptick in cerebral palsy years down the road because we have increased rates of brain bleeds in infants. I think its a real tragedy.

 

[TheRealUW]

The COVID vaccine has done a lot of damage to public health. Everyone has heard about the measles outbreak this year with the epicenter being exactly where I am with my young kids (who can't be fully vaccinated to it) right now. Not as many have heard about how bad the whooping cough is though, and THAT is a bad illness even if measles isn't seen as so severe. Just wait til diptheria makes a comeback. Or people are getting lockjaw after getting some puncture wound and refuse to get a tetanus booster.

I believe this is (one) direct result from a botched rollout of an untested mRNA vaccine that we didn't have appropriate safety signals on. Now people won't get their kids the TDAP and MMR vaccines because they are being lumped in with the COVID shot in peoples' minds. And now people are refusing vitamin K shots for infants?? I sure hope we don't see an uptick in cerebral palsy years down the road because we have increased rates of brain bleeds in infants. I think its a real tragedy.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The public has become less trusting of all vaccines following COVID.

Interestingly enough, my fully vaccinated daughter contracted measles around age 2 while we were on a trip in Thailand. Fortunately, she made a full recovery without any permanent damage to her immune system. It is a scary time to have kids <1 year old in West Texas right now.

 

['PokeForLife]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The public has become less trusting of all vaccines following COVID.

Interestingly enough, my fully vaccinated daughter contracted measles around age 2 while we were on a trip in Thailand. Fortunately, she made a full recovery without any permanent damage to her immune system. It is a scary time to have kids <1 year old in West Texas right now.

That sucks that she got measles. It is good that measles in and of itself is not severe in the vast majority of cases. However, and I know this is just being nitpicky on my side, your 2 year old daughter wasn't fully vaccinated. There are two rounds of MMR - one at age 1 and one as part of the "kindergarten shots" at between 4-6 years old. And I know even if she were fully vaccinated there still is a chance to have gotten measles since it is one of the most virulent pathogens we know of.

And to be clear, I don't think that all of the vaccines that are pushed on people are good. I think that forcing people to give their kids the chicken pox vaccine or guilting people into the flu shot every year is terrible. I think if people want to wait a while to give their kids the Hep B vaccine series that is completely reasonable rather than forcing it on newborns. And it goes without saying that the covid shot risk:benefit ratio for most people except for the obese over the age of 60 crowd is way too high.

 

[TheRealUW]

That sucks that she got measles. It is good that measles in and of itself is not severe in the vast majority of cases. However, and I know this is just being nitpicky on my side, your 2 year old daughter wasn't fully vaccinated. There are two rounds of MMR - one at age 1 and one as part of the "kindergarten shots" at between 4-6 years old. And I know even if she were fully vaccinated there still is a chance to have gotten measles since it is one of the most virulent pathogens we know of.

And to be clear, I don't think that all of the vaccines that are pushed on people are good. I think that forcing people to give their kids the chicken pox vaccine or guilting people into the flu shot every year is terrible. I think if people want to wait a while to give their kids the Hep B vaccine series that is completely reasonable rather than forcing it on newborns. And it goes without saying that the covid shot risk:benefit ratio for most people except for the obese over the age of 60 crowd is way too high.

You are correct about the MMR vaccine. I was meaning fully vaccinated for her age. 93% of effectiveness from the MMR vaccine comes from the first shot. The second shot bumps it's effectiveness to 97%.

The real problem with measles is not during the acute infection. As you've said, most cases aren't severe and don't even need to be hospitalized while infected. The bigger problem is the "immune amnesia" that occurs in many cases of measles. Measles is known to destroy the "memory cells" of the immune system and can leave children susceptible to additional infections for many years after the measles infection.