NM State Game

[BackHarlowRoad]

Where did this myth of McManamen being a great defender come from?

From Shyatt's own lips when he said he was the best defender on the roster.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Where did this myth of McManamen being a great defender come from?

From Shyatt's own lips when he said he was the best defender on the roster.

Has Shyatt ever heard of that guy, whats his name, Josh Adams? Thats the best defender on the team, bar none.

I would even out JJ up there over JMac...

 

[DVDA]

Where did this myth of McManamen being a great defender come from?

From Shyatt's own lips when he said he was the best defender on the roster.

Obviously Shyatt was talking out of his ass if he said that. Josh Adams is an NBA level defender. McManamen is solid enough for division one basketball.

 

[BackHarlowRoad]

Where did this myth of McManamen being a great defender come from?

From Shyatt's own lips when he said he was the best defender on the roster.

Obviously Shyatt was talking out of his ass if he said that. Josh Adams is an NBA level defender. McManamen is solid enough for division one basketball.

He definitely said it, adding in the word "probably".

http://trib.com/sports/college/wyoming/mbb/jason-mcmanamen-s-defensive-versatility-a-luxury-for-wyoming/article_0856b292-6a27-5054-96af-a307c119001b.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also presume Shyatt is taking into account JMac's communication, discipline, versatility, rotation, etc. Not just one-on-one ability, because like you said, it's quite obvious who our best one-on-one defender is.

 

[DVDA]

Where did this myth of McManamen being a great defender come from?

From Shyatt's own lips when he said he was the best defender on the roster.

Obviously Shyatt was talking out of his ass if he said that. Josh Adams is an NBA level defender. McManamen is solid enough for division one basketball.

He definitely said it, adding in the word "probably".

http://trib.com/sports/college/wyoming/mbb/jason-mcmanamen-s-defensive-versatility-a-luxury-for-wyoming/article_0856b292-6a27-5054-96af-a307c119001b.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also presume he's taking into account his communication, versatility, rotation, etc. Not just one-on-one ability.

As I said before, Shyatt was talking out of his ass if he called him the best defender on the team. McManamen simply is nowhere near Adam's defensive level. I'm not going to waste my time on this though because it's that blatantly obvious.

 

[BackHarlowRoad]

I'm agreeing with you on the one-on-one thing.

All I'm saying is the dude is pretty damn important in Shyatt's eyes as far as our TEAM defense is concerned.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Where did this myth of McManamen being a great defender come from?

From Shyatt's own lips when he said he was the best defender on the roster.

Obviously Shyatt was talking out of his ass if he said that. Josh Adams is an NBA level defender. McManamen is solid enough for division one basketball.

He definitely said it, adding in the word "probably".

http://trib.com/sports/college/wyoming/mbb/jason-mcmanamen-s-defensive-versatility-a-luxury-for-wyoming/article_0856b292-6a27-5054-96af-a307c119001b.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also presume he's taking into account his communication, versatility, rotation, etc. Not just one-on-one ability.

I would never call into question your sources or your words, but I will never be sold on the fact that JMac is a better defender than Adams. Ever.

Shyatt can say it til he's blue in the face but anyone who's watched Adams and JMac play know who's the better defender

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

I'm agreeing with you on the one-on-one thing.

All I'm saying is the dude is pretty important in Shyatt's eyes as far as our team defense is concerned.

I agree with this completely because he is so versatile and can cover so many positions well. But best on the team, not even close.

 

[BackHarlowRoad]

Agreed.

Now, since we know Shyatt cherishes defense, and cherishes JMac's defensive versatility specifically, it's probably safe to say that if it came down to Marshall or JMac next year for a starting position, it's going to JMac. That was the original argument from Cowduck.

My guess is that if Marshall is better offensively (as was stated, that's not yet proven) and is more athletic (probably obvious), then his defense must not be as sound. He must not be able to guard as many positions, he might not be as good of a communicator or 'quarterback'.

I'd also agree that rebounding is not JMac's strength, but there's no way in hell I've seen enough of Marshall to be able to say that it is his strength either. I tried looking through Marshall's juco stats and it's tough to say even with those because his minutes were sporadic there as well (only averaged 15 minutes per game).

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Agreed.

Now, since we know Shyatt cherishes defense, and cherishes JMac's defensive versatility specifically, it's probably safe to say that if it came down to Marshall or JMac next year for a starting position, it's going to JMac. That was the original argument from Cowduck.

My guess is that if Marshall is better offensively (as was stated, that's not yet proven) and is more athletic (probably obvious), then his defense must not be as sound. He must not be able to guard as many positions, he might not be as good of a communicator or 'quarterback'.

I'd also agree that rebounding is not JMac's strength, but there's no way in hell I've seen enough of Marshall to be able to say that it is his strength either. I tried looking through Marshall's juco stats and it's tough to say even with those because his minutes were sporadic there as well (only averaged 15 minutes per game).

Marshall has become quite the enigma. His small sample size has left me (and it appears a lot of Wyoming fans) wanting to see more. I have liked what I have seen. There has to be something going on with his health, his demeanor, or his academics. I cannot see his DEFENSE being the reason he's not playing. It is not like Aka Gorski or Lieberman or Dalton are defensive prodigies an they are seeing plenty of time. There has to be something else going on

 

[joshvanklomp]

I don't understand why everyone is so convinced that McManamen isn't a starter. He's one of the better players on the floor! Why do people think he doesn't deserve his minutes? Because he's a Wyoming kid? Because he's a sniper, not a slasher? I just don't get it.

Going into the season, I was one of those people. However, I'm glad to be wrong. He's improved his game and is a capable starter. It would take a lot for me to bench him from this point forward.

 

[Cowduck]

Agreed.

Now, since we know Shyatt cherishes defense, and cherishes JMac's defensive versatility specifically, it's probably safe to say that if it came down to Marshall or JMac next year for a starting position, it's going to JMac. That was the original argument from Cowduck.

My guess is that if Marshall is better offensively (as was stated, that's not yet proven) and is more athletic (probably obvious), then his defense must not be as sound. He must not be able to guard as many positions, he might not be as good of a communicator or 'quarterback'.

I'd also agree that rebounding is not JMac's strength, but there's no way in hell I've seen enough of Marshall to be able to say that it is his strength either. I tried looking through Marshall's juco stats and it's tough to say even with those because his minutes were sporadic there as well (only averaged 15 minutes per game).

Marshall has become quite the enigma. His small sample size has left me (and it appears a lot of Wyoming fans) wanting to see more. I have liked what I have seen. There has to be something going on with his health, his demeanor, or his academics. I cannot see his DEFENSE being the reason he's not playing. It is not like Aka Gorski or Lieberman or Dalton are defensive prodigies an they are seeing plenty of time. There has to be something else going on

Mcmanamen can guard the opposition's 2-4, making his versatility extremely valuable and allowing the team to go either big or small depending on the matchup. His defending is extremely intelligent and he always executes the team defending concept. Don't mistake elite quickness with elite defending. Intelligence, anticipation, and selecting the proper angle to prevent penetration are paramount when playing a packline-style defense.

Why can you not see Marshall's defense being the reason he's not playing? It is by far the most important factor in getting on the floor in Shyatt's system. If I'm asked why a particular player on the roster isn't playing much, I will always assume "because he is not defending up to Shyatt's standards" is the answer until proven otherwise. He's been very, very transparent about this from day one.

My basic point is that Shyatt's earned the benefit of my doubt and then some when it comes to apportioning minutes. I believe he is running a very healthy, competitive but team-oriented culture and is very honest both with fans and with players about how you get burn. If this were an unhealthy team culture where I suspected there were non-basketball factors impacting lineup selection we'd have a problem, but I just don't know where all these armchair Woodens get off claiming that Marshall or any other player should be playing more than they are. These coaches are highly experienced and trained, and they see what happens in practice EVERY DAY. And then they go watch tape of that practice EVERY DAY. And then they see what happens on the court in games, and watch tape of THAT. So everyone can calm down on the "so-and-so should be playing more and so-and-so should not." Especially when it comes to a player who we've seen for a TOTAL of 26 minutes of game action this season.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Agreed.

Now, since we know Shyatt cherishes defense, and cherishes JMac's defensive versatility specifically, it's probably safe to say that if it came down to Marshall or JMac next year for a starting position, it's going to JMac. That was the original argument from Cowduck.

My guess is that if Marshall is better offensively (as was stated, that's not yet proven) and is more athletic (probably obvious), then his defense must not be as sound. He must not be able to guard as many positions, he might not be as good of a communicator or 'quarterback'.

I'd also agree that rebounding is not JMac's strength, but there's no way in hell I've seen enough of Marshall to be able to say that it is his strength either. I tried looking through Marshall's juco stats and it's tough to say even with those because his minutes were sporadic there as well (only averaged 15 minutes per game).

Marshall has become quite the enigma. His small sample size has left me (and it appears a lot of Wyoming fans) wanting to see more. I have liked what I have seen. There has to be something going on with his health, his demeanor, or his academics. I cannot see his DEFENSE being the reason he's not playing. It is not like Aka Gorski or Lieberman or Dalton are defensive prodigies an they are seeing plenty of time. There has to be something else going on

Mcmanamen can guard the opposition's 2-4, making his versatility extremely valuable and allowing the team to go either big or small depending on the matchup. His defending is extremely intelligent and he always executes the team defending concept. Don't mistake elite quickness with elite defending. Intelligence, anticipation, and selecting the proper angle to prevent penetration are paramount when playing a packline-style defense.

Why can you not see Marshall's defense being the reason he's not playing? It is by far the most important factor in getting on the floor in Shyatt's system. If I'm asked why a particular player on the roster isn't playing much, I will always assume "because he is not defending up to Shyatt's standards" is the answer until proven otherwise. He's been very, very transparent about this from day one.

My basic point is that Shyatt's earned the benefit of my doubt and then some when it comes to apportioning minutes. I believe he is running a very healthy, competitive but team-oriented culture and is very honest both with fans and with players about how you get burn. If this were an unhealthy team culture where I suspected there were non-basketball factors impacting lineup selection we'd have a problem, but I just don't know where all these armchair Woodens get off claiming that Marshall or any other player should be playing more than they are. These coaches are highly experienced and trained, and they see what happens in practice EVERY DAY. And then they go watch tape of that practice EVERY DAY. And then they see what happens on the court in games, and watch tape of THAT. So everyone can calm down on the "so-and-so should be playing more and so-and-so should not." Especially when it comes to a player who we've seen for a TOTAL of 26 minutes of game action this season.

Because to the naked eye, in game, its not like Aka Gorski, Dalton, or Lieberman are great defenders. I would put them close to the Liability end of the spectrum honestly. If Marshall is lacking behind them on the defensive side of the ball at this point then there is bigger issues, like why was he recruited if he's that awful. And why recruit his just to park his ass at the end of the bench? I just don't get it. If he needs more time to learn the system then redshirt him.

 

[Cowduck]

Because to the naked eye, in game, its not like Aka Gorski, Dalton, or Lieberman are great defenders. I would put them close to the Liability end of the spectrum honestly. If Marshall is lacking behind them on the defensive side of the ball at this point then there is bigger issues, like why was he recruited if he's that awful. And why recruit his just to park his ass at the end of the bench? I just don't get it. If he needs more time to learn the system then redshirt him.

Well, the players you mention are #6, 7, and 8 in MPG this season, with Barnes and Naughton at 9 and 10. So they're role players as is. Dalton isn't in direct competition with Marshall for minutes but I'd agree he's been suspect defensively at times (especially his early season tendency to foul jump shooters). His last four games: 5, 8, 11, and 0 minutes played. Gorski and Lieberman are serviceable defenders (and I'd argue Lieberman is better than that, people are underrating him on the defensive end).

Those two are much more susceptible to losing minutes to Marshall than JMac is. For some stupid reason, certain people have been saying for two solid years now that JMac is essentially a stopgap until the players behind him get with the program. It's some Wyoming inferiority complex bullshit is what it is. The assumption is that he can't be that good if he's from small town Wyoming. Guess what: HE IS THAT GOOD. He is absolutely worthy of playing 28-30 minutes on an upper-tier MWC team. I can see it. Larry Shyatt, Jeremy Shyatt, Scott Duncan, Allen Edwards all see it. Deal with it and enjoy the ride.

As for your remaining point, it isn't necessarily that Marshall is that awful defensively, but he's in competition with players who have at least a year more in the system to get an understanding of what the staff is asking them to do. As far as redshirting, Shyatt has said that is the player's decision. We don't know if that was suggested to him, and it isn't common for a juco transfer to redshirt after transferring to a D1 school. You can't give a player minutes just because you recruited him. You bring him in and he sinks or swims. Some players don't pan out. All you can promise is opportunity. He wouldn't be the first player (juco transfer, even) brought in who didn't wind up a contributor and won't be the last. And by the way, none of this is to say that I think Marshall isn't good or won't play his way onto the floor and make an impact. I just think he's probably being given a fair shake right now and trust our staff to evaluate players better than your average message board jamoke.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Because to the naked eye, in game, its not like Aka Gorski, Dalton, or Lieberman are great defenders. I would put them close to the Liability end of the spectrum honestly. If Marshall is lacking behind them on the defensive side of the ball at this point then there is bigger issues, like why was he recruited if he's that awful. And why recruit his just to park his ass at the end of the bench? I just don't get it. If he needs more time to learn the system then redshirt him.

Well, the players you mention are #6, 7, and 8 in MPG this season, with Barnes and Naughton at 9 and 10. So they're role players as is. Dalton isn't in direct competition with Marshall for minutes but I'd agree he's been suspect defensively at times (especially his early season tendency to foul jump shooters). His last four games: 5, 8, 11, and 0 minutes played. Gorski and Lieberman are serviceable defenders (and I'd argue Lieberman is better than that, people are underrating him on the defensive end).

Those two are much more susceptible to losing minutes to Marshall than JMac is. For some stupid reason, certain people have been saying for two solid years now that JMac is essentially a stopgap until the players behind him get with the program. It's some Wyoming inferiority complex bullshit is what it is. The assumption is that he can't be that good if he's from small town Wyoming. Guess what: HE IS THAT GOOD. He is absolutely worthy of playing 28-30 minutes on an upper-tier MWC team. I can see it. Larry Shyatt, Jeremy Shyatt, Scott Duncan, Allen Edwards all see it. Deal with it and enjoy the ride.

As for your remaining point, it isn't necessarily that Marshall is that awful defensively, but he's in competition with players who have at least a year more in the system to get an understanding of what the staff is asking them to do. As far as redshirting, Shyatt has said that is the player's decision. We don't know if that was suggested to him, and it isn't common for a juco transfer to redshirt after transferring to a D1 school. You can't give a player minutes just because you recruited him. You bring him in and he sinks or swims. Some players don't pan out. All you can promise is opportunity. He wouldn't be the first player (juco transfer, even) brought in who didn't wind up a contributor and won't be the last. And by the way, none of this is to say that I think Marshall isn't good or won't play his way onto the floor and make an impact. I just think he's probably being given a fair shake right now and trust our staff to evaluate players better than your average message board jamoke.

I think this is a good assessment and I don't necessarily disagree with you points made. My comment about Dalton's playing time was more reflective of he gets time and is pretty awful defensively yet Marshall isn't getting minutes at all.

The only thing I would say is that I am not in 100% agreement about the players decision to redshirt. I am sure that the players opinions matter, but ultimately Shy has the final say. I guarantee you Conway and Moemeka didn't sign their letter and say, "god I can't wait to redshirt this fall." They are competitors and given the chance would be on the court every game. I am sure Shy sat them down and talked it over and told them they're redshirting and spun it as a growing opportunity (which it most certainly is). With Marshall maybe he said he would take his chances for playing time, I don't know.

 

[TSpoke]

Because to the naked eye, in game, its not like Aka Gorski, Dalton, or Lieberman are great defenders. I would put them close to the Liability end of the spectrum honestly. If Marshall is lacking behind them on the defensive side of the ball at this point then there is bigger issues, like why was he recruited if he's that awful. And why recruit his just to park his ass at the end of the bench? I just don't get it. If he needs more time to learn the system then redshirt him.

Well, the players you mention are #6, 7, and 8 in MPG this season, with Barnes and Naughton at 9 and 10. So they're role players as is. Dalton isn't in direct competition with Marshall for minutes but I'd agree he's been suspect defensively at times (especially his early season tendency to foul jump shooters). His last four games: 5, 8, 11, and 0 minutes played. Gorski and Lieberman are serviceable defenders (and I'd argue Lieberman is better than that, people are underrating him on the defensive end).

Those two are much more susceptible to losing minutes to Marshall than JMac is. For some stupid reason, certain people have been saying for two solid years now that JMac is essentially a stopgap until the players behind him get with the program. It's some Wyoming inferiority complex bullshit is what it is. The assumption is that he can't be that good if he's from small town Wyoming. Guess what: HE IS THAT GOOD. He is absolutely worthy of playing 28-30 minutes on an upper-tier MWC team. I can see it. Larry Shyatt, Jeremy Shyatt, Scott Duncan, Allen Edwards all see it. Deal with it and enjoy the ride.

As for your remaining point, it isn't necessarily that Marshall is that awful defensively, but he's in competition with players who have at least a year more in the system to get an understanding of what the staff is asking them to do. As far as redshirting, Shyatt has said that is the player's decision. We don't know if that was suggested to him, and it isn't common for a juco transfer to redshirt after transferring to a D1 school. You can't give a player minutes just because you recruited him. You bring him in and he sinks or swims. Some players don't pan out. All you can promise is opportunity. He wouldn't be the first player (juco transfer, even) brought in who didn't wind up a contributor and won't be the last. And by the way, none of this is to say that I think Marshall isn't good or won't play his way onto the floor and make an impact. I just think he's probably being given a fair shake right now and trust our staff to evaluate players better than your average message board jamoke.

I agree with this post. I think Lieberman has bee nplaying [retty good defense and that is why he has been getting the minutes hes getting(it isn't cuz hes hitting shots,but I think they will start to fall).

I have had high hopes for JMac and thought he could contribute this year. I saw flashes last year that he was more of a player than he was asked to do last year. I have enjoyed watching him come thorugh.

I also don't think it would be a a good idea to RS Marshall. Our classes are screwed up enough. We don't want to have only one senior again next year with 1 more junior added to that class.

 

[Cowduck]

The only thing I would say is that I am not in 100% agreement about the players decision to redshirt. I am sure that the players opinions matter, but ultimately Shy has the final say. I guarantee you Conway and Moemeka didn't sign their letter and say, "god I can't wait to redshirt this fall." They are competitors and given the chance would be on the court every game. I am sure Shy sat them down and talked it over and told them they're redshirting and spun it as a growing opportunity (which it most certainly is). With Marshall maybe he said he would take his chances for playing time, I don't know.

I Think the staff has an extreme honesty policy, which is a good way to go as a coach. I think they sit down with those two (or whoever else) and you specifically tell them who's in front of them in the pecking order and how far ahead they are, and what they can reasonably expect to get in terms of playing time this season. If I'm Conway or Moemeka and I'm getting told that there are four or five players ahead of me and that my minutes are going to be garbage time only, I'm not wasting a year of eligibility if I'm thinking rationally about it. Sometimes players will choose to forego the redshirt and try to fight their way onto the court and that's their prerogative. I think if there is open, honest two-way communication on the issue then the player and the coach are usually going to be on the same page about it.

 

[NowherePoke]

Agreed.

Now, since we know Shyatt cherishes defense, and cherishes JMac's defensive versatility specifically, it's probably safe to say that if it came down to Marshall or JMac next year for a starting position, it's going to JMac. That was the original argument from Cowduck.

My guess is that if Marshall is better offensively (as was stated, that's not yet proven) and is more athletic (probably obvious), then his defense must not be as sound. He must not be able to guard as many positions, he might not be as good of a communicator or 'quarterback'.

I'd also agree that rebounding is not JMac's strength, but there's no way in hell I've seen enough of Marshall to be able to say that it is his strength either. I tried looking through Marshall's juco stats and it's tough to say even with those because his minutes were sporadic there as well (only averaged 15 minutes per game).

You have to disregard minutes stats from the JC ranks. A lot of the games don't include minutes in the box score (you will see everybody listed as having played 1 minute or something on the game log for the NJCAA stats). Marshall averaged 16 ppg and 6.1 rpg for a team that appeared to have a relatively slow tempo for JC standards. Pretty similar to Nate Sobey. It's probably fair to say that Marshall is a decent rebounder from the guard position, but having a decent rebounder from the wing doesn't even begin to address our severe rebounding weaknesses in the front court so it probably isn't a reason to increase Marshall's minutes.

We are pretty deep at the wing with JJ, JMac, and Gorski along with periods of time where a lot of minutes at the "2" are taken up by one of the backup PG's (TW3 or Lieberman). That limits the opportunities for Marshall.

We really need help at the "4". That's why I was frustrated by the Dalton signing. Our front court weakness was fairly obvious and yet we didn't do anything to address it in the spring.

 

[NowherePoke]

Because to the naked eye, in game, its not like Aka Gorski, Dalton, or Lieberman are great defenders. I would put them close to the Liability end of the spectrum honestly. If Marshall is lacking behind them on the defensive side of the ball at this point then there is bigger issues, like why was he recruited if he's that awful. And why recruit his just to park his ass at the end of the bench? I just don't get it. If he needs more time to learn the system then redshirt him.

Well, the players you mention are #6, 7, and 8 in MPG this season, with Barnes and Naughton at 9 and 10. So they're role players as is. Dalton isn't in direct competition with Marshall for minutes but I'd agree he's been suspect defensively at times (especially his early season tendency to foul jump shooters). His last four games: 5, 8, 11, and 0 minutes played. Gorski and Lieberman are serviceable defenders (and I'd argue Lieberman is better than that, people are underrating him on the defensive end).

Those two are much more susceptible to losing minutes to Marshall than JMac is. For some stupid reason, certain people have been saying for two solid years now that JMac is essentially a stopgap until the players behind him get with the program. It's some Wyoming inferiority complex bullshit is what it is. The assumption is that he can't be that good if he's from small town Wyoming. Guess what: HE IS THAT GOOD. He is absolutely worthy of playing 28-30 minutes on an upper-tier MWC team. I can see it. Larry Shyatt, Jeremy Shyatt, Scott Duncan, Allen Edwards all see it. Deal with it and enjoy the ride.

As for your remaining point, it isn't necessarily that Marshall is that awful defensively, but he's in competition with players who have at least a year more in the system to get an understanding of what the staff is asking them to do. As far as redshirting, Shyatt has said that is the player's decision. We don't know if that was suggested to him, and it isn't common for a juco transfer to redshirt after transferring to a D1 school. You can't give a player minutes just because you recruited him. You bring him in and he sinks or swims. Some players don't pan out. All you can promise is opportunity. He wouldn't be the first player (juco transfer, even) brought in who didn't wind up a contributor and won't be the last. And by the way, none of this is to say that I think Marshall isn't good or won't play his way onto the floor and make an impact. I just think he's probably being given a fair shake right now and trust our staff to evaluate players better than your average message board jamoke.

The other thing to keep in mind with Marshall are the injuries. He was hurt throughout the fall practice period, so he has had very little opportunity to learn and digest the system (on both ends of the floor).

I agree with many others that his talent is obvious and he I think he will be a factor next year, there just a number of things holding him back right now, including the fact that our depth is strongest on the wing. If we had a front court player of equivalent talent he would be starting right now.

 

[BackHarlowRoad]

I must say I'm impressed with this discussion. No one is butt-hurt about being disagreed with, no one's taking anything personally. Defending their opinion with logic. Been hard to come by lately.

Bravo, men. Bravo.