1WYO NIL Collective goes live today

[OrediggerPoke]

And those services are...paying college athletes.

I'm sure the BOD would explain their services something like "pairing local college athletes with local charities for the promotion, marketing and betterment of said local charities"...

 

[laxwyo]

I wonder what the net impact of the new collective will be on CJC and Foundation fundraising? Folks only have so much money to invest in UW and UW athletes. I don't have interest in CJC, the Foundation, or the collective so don't have a dog in the fight, but could definitely see some issues emerging - and fairly soon. CJC may actually have to consider innovation and change...which aren't overly popular in groups like CJC whose motivation has largely been perpetuating a closed, mutual aggrandizement club.

While I agree that CJC needs a complete overhaul, you bring up the exact point that has me concerned for the future of UW Athletics! Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Rather than donor money going to athletic facility improvements and maintenance, a significant portion of it will now go to the pockets of 18-22 year olds to blow.

You're looking at it all wrong. It's not just for money to blow. It's for retaining talent. Businesses that don't pay to retain talented people lose those people to businesses that do.

Is it really that much different than blowing money on facilities or any other thing we spend money on to help recruiting. Why work so hard recruiting on the front end just to give up on the back end?

 

[OrediggerPoke]

While I agree that CJC needs a complete overhaul, you bring up the exact point that has me concerned for the future of UW Athletics! Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Rather than donor money going to athletic facility improvements and maintenance, a significant portion of it will now go to the pockets of 18-22 year olds to blow.

You're looking at it all wrong. It's not just for money to blow. It's for retaining talent. Businesses that don't pay to retain talented people lose those people to businesses that do.

Is it really that much different than blowing money on facilities or any other thing we spend money on to help recruiting. Why work so hard recruiting on the front end just to give up on the back end?

All Ike demanded was rumored to be a half million…that makes zero sense for Wyoming. Businesses retain talent to make money. They don’t overpay because they like someone. If someone demands an amount of money that would make the business unprofitable, they thank them for their service and move on.

 

[307bball]

You're looking at it all wrong. It's not just for money to blow. It's for retaining talent. Businesses that don't pay to retain talented people lose those people to businesses that do.

Is it really that much different than blowing money on facilities or any other thing we spend money on to help recruiting. Why work so hard recruiting on the front end just to give up on the back end?

All Ike demanded was rumored to be a half million…that makes zero sense for Wyoming. Businesses retain talent to make money. They don’t overpay because they like someone. If someone demands an amount of money that would make the business unprofitable, they thank them for their service and move on.

I'm pretty negative on NIL in general...but how much was it worth for Wyoming to have Josh Allen? If you use the model of retaining talent that is worth having...why not give Ike 500 grand? Can't you make a case that it is worth it? Now...Wyoming (or Wyoming's NIL collective) may not have the ability to pay somebody a half million but that is a separate issue than "is it worth it". If you have a JA level guy....half a million is probably a steal.

There is a bunch of factors against Wyoming in this....the big one is that even if it's a slam dunk no-brainer good investment to pay a guy (and I would argue that JA would be the classic example of this)..... Is there enough NIL cash sloshing around in Wyoming to make the purchase? I kind of doubt it. I had made the observation in the past that I think the "suitcase money" of the past is what is being diverted now to above-board NIL collectives. Wyoming never had much of that anyways. I bet official donor money directly to college athletics is largely un-impacted by NIL. I guess I could see a situation where it hurts cash-starved programs that go heavy into NIL to keep talent...time will tell.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

All Ike demanded was rumored to be a half million…that makes zero sense for Wyoming. Businesses retain talent to make money. They don’t overpay because they like someone. If someone demands an amount of money that would make the business unprofitable, they thank them for their service and move on.

I'm pretty negative on NIL in general...but how much was it worth for Wyoming to have Josh Allen? If you use the model of retaining talent that is worth having...why not give Ike 500 grand? Can't you make a case that it is worth it? Now...Wyoming (or Wyoming's NIL collective) may not have the ability to pay somebody a half million but that is a separate issue than "is it worth it". If you have a JA level guy....half a million is probably a steal.

There is a bunch of factors against Wyoming in this....the big one is that even if it's a slam dunk no-brainer good investment to pay a guy (and I would argue that JA would be the classic example of this)..... Is there enough NIL cash sloshing around in Wyoming to make the purchase? I kind of doubt it. I had made the observation in the past that I think the "suitcase money" of the past is what is being diverted now to above-board NIL collectives. Wyoming never had much of that anyways. I bet official donor money directly to college athletics is largely un-impacted by NIL. I guess I could see a situation where it hurts cash-starved programs that go heavy into NIL to keep talent...time will tell.

How good did the Ike investment turn out the last year? Was that money well spent? How about Texas’ investment in Neyor? Do you think Texas believes that was money well spent? Was the NIL to the California basketball transfers money well spent? I’d argue those guys actually produced serious negative returns.

Not only is the NIL money from the donor base, there are zero guarantees the money will even pay off in any sort of measurable or meaningful way (this is huge investment based risk). Those are single players, you need a team (and theoretically a lot more money). None of it makes sense for Wyoming.

While Josh Allen has had an incredible NFL career which has been positive marketing for Wyoming (no one can predict pro success), Wyoming still only had a Ponsettia Bowl loss and a Potato Bowl win to show those years (those bowls were probably both losers in terms of costs versus revenues).

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I'm pretty negative on NIL in general...but how much was it worth for Wyoming to have Josh Allen?

2nd place in the MWC is what JA could elevate WYO to...once. That's not a knock on Josh; offense has been a disaster without him. For other metrics...

Did enrollment increase?
Did athletics improve?
Did recruiting classes get better?

Good question. What was JA worth?

 

[307bball]

I'm pretty negative on NIL in general...but how much was it worth for Wyoming to have Josh Allen?

2nd place in the MWC is what JA could elevate WYO to...once. That's not a knock on Josh; offense has been a disaster without him. For other metrics...

Did enrollment increase?
Did athletics improve?
Did recruiting classes get better?

Good question. What was JA worth?

We are mixing our metaphors a bit....what would wyoming have had to pay to get the visibility that JA brought to the program?...even the visibility he had while he was here was incredibly valuable. If it is about buying a championship...I hope we don't try that...I don't think there is enough money.

 

[307bball]

I'm pretty negative on NIL in general...but how much was it worth for Wyoming to have Josh Allen? If you use the model of retaining talent that is worth having...why not give Ike 500 grand? Can't you make a case that it is worth it? Now...Wyoming (or Wyoming's NIL collective) may not have the ability to pay somebody a half million but that is a separate issue than "is it worth it". If you have a JA level guy....half a million is probably a steal.

There is a bunch of factors against Wyoming in this....the big one is that even if it's a slam dunk no-brainer good investment to pay a guy (and I would argue that JA would be the classic example of this)..... Is there enough NIL cash sloshing around in Wyoming to make the purchase? I kind of doubt it. I had made the observation in the past that I think the "suitcase money" of the past is what is being diverted now to above-board NIL collectives. Wyoming never had much of that anyways. I bet official donor money directly to college athletics is largely un-impacted by NIL. I guess I could see a situation where it hurts cash-starved programs that go heavy into NIL to keep talent...time will tell.

How good did the Ike investment turn out the last year? Was that money well spent? How about Texas’ investment in Neyor? Do you think Texas believes that was money well spent? Was the NIL to the California basketball transfers money well spent? I’d argue those guys actually produced serious negative returns.

Not only is the NIL money from the donor base, there are zero guarantees the money will even pay off in any sort of measurable or meaningful way (this is huge investment based risk). Those are single players, you need a team (and theoretically a lot more money). None of it makes sense for Wyoming.

While Josh Allen has had an incredible NFL career which has been positive marketing for Wyoming (no one can predict pro success), Wyoming still only had a Ponsettia Bowl loss and a Potato Bowl win to show those years (those bowls were probably both losers in terms of costs versus revenues).

There was no NIL investment into Ike....or at least not the 500 grand he was asking. Anyways...the college athletic economics is not like normal economics. It looks like every player is going to get paid and the best players are getting paid a ton...and nearly all of them are a losing proposition economically. But a few are not....to spend half a million to get the positive visibility that Wyoming got during the JA years that is almost primarily attributed to him being under center is such a crazy good deal. If you could guarantee you had a JA guy...you would be stupid not to pay them. Even if you are Wyoming.

Now...this analysis breaks down in the specifics since, as far as I know, schools cannot directly contribute to NIL funds. Whatever Wyoming invested into JA was the same as any other football player that was here during that time.

So what is the ROI of an NIL dollar?....What is the ROI on a dollar given to the traditional booster club? .... What is the ROI on the dollar given to a fund drive for a new stadium? Aren't they all considered charitable donations? Nobody gets a single cent back from any of that money...it's not an investment. If it were the colleges directly paying the players...then it's more straightforward.

I think it was you who pointed out that you are more comfortable giving to the university or to the CJC .... Your reasons seem very coherent to me...You are not investing when you give that money ... at least not in the traditional sense. You point out that those dollars stay with the community though.... very compelling. Unfortunately...in a world where Graham Ike can get a half of a million dollars somewhere else....he's going somewhere else....no matter how much money we all donate to CJC or spend on facilities. The return that colleges get will be the same as it always is in athletics...visibility and alumni engagement...that is what they are buying by giving out scholarships and spending on athletics. That is what would have made it worth it, if it was legal, to give JA a large sum of money to stay at Wyoming.

**note...it's weird to think of this in raw economic terms. College athletics is decidedly a luxury consumable good. You can look at it in terms of marketing or in terms of wins per dollar or whatever...but as has been analyzed before...almost everybody loses money on college athletics.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

How good did the Ike investment turn out the last year? Was that money well spent? How about Texas’ investment in Neyor? Do you think Texas believes that was money well spent? Was the NIL to the California basketball transfers money well spent? I’d argue those guys actually produced serious negative returns.

Not only is the NIL money from the donor base, there are zero guarantees the money will even pay off in any sort of measurable or meaningful way (this is huge investment based risk). Those are single players, you need a team (and theoretically a lot more money). None of it makes sense for Wyoming.

While Josh Allen has had an incredible NFL career which has been positive marketing for Wyoming (no one can predict pro success), Wyoming still only had a Ponsettia Bowl loss and a Potato Bowl win to show those years (those bowls were probably both losers in terms of costs versus revenues).

There was no NIL investment into Ike....or at least not the 500 grand he was asking. Anyways...the college athletic economics is not like normal economics. It looks like every player is going to get paid and the best players are getting paid a ton...and nearly all of them are a losing proposition economically. But a few are not....to spend half a million to get the positive visibility that Wyoming got during the JA years that is almost primarily attributed to him being under center is such a crazy good deal. If you could guarantee you had a JA guy...you would be stupid not to pay them. Even if you are Wyoming.

Now...this analysis breaks down in the specifics since, as far as I know, schools cannot directly contribute to NIL funds. Whatever Wyoming invested into JA was the same as any other football player that was here during that time.

So what is the ROI of an NIL dollar?....What is the ROI on a dollar given to the traditional booster club? .... What is the ROI on the dollar given to a fund drive for a new stadium? Aren't they all considered charitable donations? Nobody gets a single cent back from any of that money...it's not an investment. If it were the colleges directly paying the players...then it's more straightforward.

I think it was you who pointed out that you are more comfortable giving to the university or to the CJC .... Your reasons seem very coherent to me...You are not investing when you give that money ... at least not in the traditional sense. You point out that those dollars stay with the community though.... very compelling. Unfortunately...in a world where Graham Ike can get a half of a million dollars somewhere else....he's going somewhere else....no matter how much money we all donate to CJC or spend on facilities. The return that colleges get will be the same as it always is in athletics...visibility and alumni engagement...that is what they are buying by giving out scholarships and spending on athletics. That is what would have made it worth it, if it was legal, to give JA a large sum of money to stay at Wyoming.

**note...it's weird to think of this in raw economic terms. College athletics is decidedly a luxury consumable good. You can look at it in terms of marketing or in terms of wins per dollar or whatever...but as has been analyzed before...almost everybody loses money on college athletics.

The 500K number was the rumored number for Ike to play at Wyoming for the 2023-2024 season. The number was rumored whether it is true or not I don't know. However, do you believe Ike 'played' for free last year after his coming out party and NCAA appearance? Do you believe Ike's appearance at the Boys & Girls Club shortly before announcing an intent to leave was purely out of the goodness of his heart or whether it may have been related to a contractual obligation related to an NIL payment? (remember, the way being presented by various NIL groups for donors to be able to claim charitable tax deductions for playing players is to pay the player in exchange for the player's endorsement and promotion of a real charity)

The economic analysis is that NIL funds and facilities/University donations are largely likely to come out of the same pot of donor money. What is the ROI on giving the money to the player versus donating for facilities/programs/etc...? So the analysis for donors is would you rather pay players (and if so what is the return) or would you rather pay for things like stadium upgrades? It isn't a tough call for me personally.

 

[307bball]

The 500K number was the rumored number for Ike to play at Wyoming for the 2023-2024 season. The number was rumored whether it is true or not I don't know. However, do you believe Ike 'played' for free last year after his coming out party and NCAA appearance? Do you believe Ike's appearance at the Boys & Girls Club shortly before announcing an intent to leave was purely out of the goodness of his heart or whether it may have been related to a contractual obligation related to an NIL payment? (remember, the way being presented by various NIL groups for donors to be able to claim charitable tax deductions for playing players is to pay the player in exchange for the player's endorsement and promotion of a real charity)

The economic analysis is that NIL funds and facilities/University donations are largely likely to come out of the same pot of donor money. What is the ROI on giving the money to the player versus donating for facilities/programs/etc...? So the analysis for donors is would you rather pay players (and if so what is the return) or would you rather pay for things like stadium upgrades? It isn't a tough call for me personally.

I think you are spot on in your characterizations of the difference between putting money in an 18 year old's pocket vs funding a new stadium...I am just not seeing an economic return for either of those....at least not to any individual donor. There is probably a case to be made for a municipality or a state to fund infrastructure improvements...but that is already happening.

As far as Graham...it's all hypothetical since we don't know the details of the deal that Graham had or the deal that Graham eventually got. Whatever "return" on Graham is zero...since he's not going to play here...what would have been the "return" if he did? I would say, to the people, that would have funded his NIL deal...their monetary return was the same...zero. For the fan/donor...the ROI for any of it is always zero. That person is buying an entertainment product that can be considered a charitable donation once in a while. ROI has never driven donations...they are non-overlapping concepts.

For the University it's different...the "investment" is the same but the returns vary dramatically. The investment in an athlete like JA is the same as any other athlete but the returns on a handful of them in the form of increased attendance and national attention, etc, etc, is very very valuable. They are supposed to abide by rules that they are not allowed to differentially compensate any of the athletes. This means that guys like Jonny Manziel gets the same money put into him when he was at TA&M as another random special teamer. Ironically...the people who were allowed to donate to A&M during that time dramatically increased their donations and got no monetary return on that money. It's a wierd system. You may be right that NIL money comes straight out of traditional donations (I disagree that is the case), but even in that case, ROI is not going to ever drive either of them.

As I said before...for cash starved Universities (Like UW), a hard turn into NIL funding may come at the expense of more traditional donations....but that won't be the case in the power conference schools.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

even the visibility he had while he was here was incredibly valuable.

How? What metric improved as a result of the visibility? I'll grant that WYO was mentioned more throughout the season in relation to draft qb's. What did that improve for WYO. No speculation. Actual data.
Enrollment increase?
Endowments?
Research grants?
Recruiting/winning?
CJC contributions?
Maybe attendance?

 

[307bball]

even the visibility he had while he was here was incredibly valuable.

How? What metric improved as a result of the visibility? I'll grant that WYO was mentioned more throughout the season in relation to draft qb's. What did that improve for WYO. No speculation. Actual data.
Enrollment increase?
Endowments?
Research grants?
Recruiting/winning?
CJC contributions?
Maybe attendance?

What you are articulating is what anti college sports people often bring up.... Why is it good to have a player like JA at your school at all? Particularly when the sports program as a whole costs money. Why not divert all athletic scholarship and donations towards academics? For the record, that is not my position... But the reason to have sports cannot just be for bragging rights.

Universities spend tons of money on marketing...I would assume the increases from those marketing efforts affected enollment, endowments, research grants and attendance in about the same way.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

How? What metric improved as a result of the visibility? I'll grant that WYO was mentioned more throughout the season in relation to draft qb's. What did that improve for WYO. No speculation. Actual data.
Enrollment increase?
Endowments?
Research grants?
Recruiting/winning?
CJC contributions?
Maybe attendance?

What you are articulating is what anti college sports people often bring up.... Why is it good to have a player like JA at your school at all? Particularly when the sports program as a whole costs money. Why not divert all athletic scholarship and donations towards academics? For the record, that is not my position... But the reason to have sports cannot just be for bragging rights.

Universities spend tons of money on marketing...I would assume the increases from those marketing efforts affected enollment, endowments, research grants and attendance in about the same way.

I honestly have no idea. You said it was Incredibly valuable, so I thought you knew.

My hunch is that athletics makes little difference at a school like WYO.. They're fun and I'm glad we have them. I just doubt it impacts the overall University that much which is why we only see the metric of exposure rather than measurable impacts.

 

[307bball]

What you are articulating is what anti college sports people often bring up.... Why is it good to have a player like JA at your school at all? Particularly when the sports program as a whole costs money. Why not divert all athletic scholarship and donations towards academics? For the record, that is not my position... But the reason to have sports cannot just be for bragging rights.

Universities spend tons of money on marketing...I would assume the increases from those marketing efforts affected enollment, endowments, research grants and attendance in about the same way.

I honestly have no idea. You said it was Incredibly valuable, so I thought you knew.

My hunch is that athletics makes little difference at a school like WYO.. They're fun and I'm glad we have them. I just doubt it impacts the overall University that much which is why we only see the metric of exposure rather than measurable impacts.

I'm not a marketing expert... I would imagine that you have had similar conversations to ones I have had in the post Josh Allen era where people who would otherwise never have known about Wyoming comment on the state or the university in the context of his time in Laramie. I have no idea how to put a value number to that.... But people do it.

The economic case for not spending money on college athletics seems very strong. If the universities are using sports to generate revenue, they are failing spectacularly. The function of university sports has to be justified by something else. As far as I understand it.... It's some combination of marketing and alumni engagement with a dash of developing young people into adults through competition. When it comes to visibility and alumni engagement....I don't know of anything better than a deep NCAA run or a high profile bowl game. People who don't even care about sports know school names and mascots and whatever else that ESPN and whomever else is broadcasting puts out there. That has to be the value proposition because it sure as hell isn't in the balance sheet.

 

[307bball]

I honestly have no idea. You said it was Incredibly valuable, so I thought you knew.

just to directly address this...I also have no Idea outside of the typical reporting that either tangentially or directly addresses how valuable high profile athletes are to universities. I'm assuming they are talking about something. Ones that come to mind from the past few years are:

Josh Allen (obviously)
Jimmer Freddette
Jonny Manzeil
Zion Williamson

 

[ELKMT]

https://gowyo.com/news/2018/1/12/va...l-in-the-fall-of-2017-exceeds-46-million.aspx

Apparently the marketing/media exposure value of the 2017 season was 46 million. A chunk of this has to be articles and draft buzz form Josh Allen.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

https://gowyo.com/news/2018/1/12/va...l-in-the-fall-of-2017-exceeds-46-million.aspx

Apparently the marketing/media exposure value of the 2017 season was 46 million. A chunk of this has to be articles and draft buzz form Josh Allen.

This part is key:

based on how much that exposure would cost in the open market if purchased at current advertising rates.

That part I get. The question is: what is the outcome or impact of that? If I'm selling ice to Alaskans in January and spend 100 million on advertisement, that isn't value.

Like I said, I love WYO athletics and glad we have them. I just don't buy the narrative that they are a great benefit to the University as a whole by any real measurable statistic. Without athletics, I doubt enrollment would drop, grant dollars down, endowments down, etc. at least by any statistically significant measure.

Athletics are a great experience for student athletes, many students, alumni, etc. but the reach of impact is limited imo.

 

[ELKMT]

The question is: what is the outcome or impact of that? If I'm selling ice to Alaskans in January and spend 100 million on advertisement, that isn't value.

I don’t disagree with your point and it’s probably impossible to put an exact figure on what more media exposure added in value. That season was the year CJC went over 5k donors but I think they were close anyways. It comes down to entertainment for me at this point as far as athletics and specifically football. It’s more entertaining to win but that isn’t the only draw ( bbqing, tailgating, beer drinking and etc.). Will I give money to NIL? I think I will but it won’t be much.

 

[ZapPoke]

I wish I could find it, but I seem to recall that Uche wrote his Master’s thesis on the positive impact college athletics has for their schools. I think it would be interesting to read given the comments in this thread.

 

[307bball]

https://gowyo.com/news/2018/1/12/va...l-in-the-fall-of-2017-exceeds-46-million.aspx

Apparently the marketing/media exposure value of the 2017 season was 46 million. A chunk of this has to be articles and draft buzz form Josh Allen.

This part is key:

based on how much that exposure would cost in the open market if purchased at current advertising rates.

That part I get. The question is: what is the outcome or impact of that? If I'm selling ice to Alaskans in January and spend 100 million on advertisement, that isn't value.

Like I said, I love WYO athletics and glad we have them. I just don't buy the narrative that they are a great benefit to the University as a whole by any real measurable statistic. Without athletics, I doubt enrollment would drop, grant dollars down, endowments down, etc. at least by any statistically significant measure.

Athletics are a great experience for student athletes, many students, alumni, etc. but the reach of impact is limited imo.

Your view of marketing closely mirrors my own...