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@ SJSU

They seemed to have little trouble getting it down to the goal line in overtime. I thought they had a pretty good chance of punching it in for the win. When they centered it on second down, my first thought was dumbass forgot what down it was. A win is a win, I guess. My confidence in this coaching staff doing the right thing is null.
 
Some folks are missing the risks running another play. A myriad of things could go wrong (and probably would with this staff). Correctly recognized is that fumble has a real chance of happening. In addition - You could have a hold, a personal foul or some other silly penalty that makes the kick more difficult. Risk was reduced by kicking there and not running another play.
 
Some folks are missing the risks running another play. A myriad of things could go wrong (and probably would with this staff). Correctly recognized is that fumble has a real chance of happening. In addition - You could have a hold, a personal foul or some other silly penalty that makes the kick more difficult. Risk was reduced by kicking there and not running another play.
Cody gave some information on that play from the presser today:

Why did the Cowboys kneel the ball and kick the game-winning 21-yard field goal in overtime instead of just pounding it in the end zone? Sawvel said after watching the first-down try by Samuel "Tote" Harris he saw the ball move in his arms after the sophomore running back took a big hit at the goal line. It was really that simple.
 
If he shanks it or gets blocked, i guarantee everyone who says the kick was the correct call would be screaming to high heaven. I'd be curious to know the math. I have a hard time believing that trying to punch it into the endzone, failing and then kicking the fg is worse statistically. It's literally two chances, one being the same thing that we ended up doing.
💯. Two chances vs one. I am dumbfounded
 
💯. Two chances vs one. I am dumbfounded
AI Concludes that you typically have a BETTER chance of winning by kicking than running another play by a small total of 0.38% (but depends on the accuracy of the kicker as well) but results in the times you don't convert being reduced by about 16% (i.e. don't convert 2.38% of the time you run then kick, don't convert 2% of the time you kick early):

Conclusion: "In college football overtime, if the opponent has already been stopped and any field goal wins, I would strongly favor kicking on third down from the 2-yard line."

Mathematical Analysis:
With an above-average college kicker, I estimate that kicking immediately has roughly a 97–98% chance of winning, compared with approximately 96–98% for running another play and then kicking if necessary.

The important distinction is that another offensive play introduces risks that don't exist if you kick immediately: offensive holding, false starts, a bad exchange, a fumble, or a tackle for loss. A penalty doesn't necessarily lose the game, but it can turn a 19-yard field goal into a 29-yard or longer attempt.

These are modeled estimates rather than measured probabilities for this exact situation. Let's incorporate those risks explicitly.

A​

Assume the following for an above-average FBS kicker and a reasonably effective short-yardage offense.

AssumptionProbability
Make a centered 19-yard FG98%
Score a TD on the run50%
Turnover on the run1%
Penalty or significant loss that worsens the kick5%
Other unsuccessful run, leaving an easy FG44%
Make FG after penalty/significant loss90%
The 98% kicking estimate is plausible for a strong college kicker at this distance, although not guaranteed. For perspective, one college-football analysis found 95.1% success on field goals attempted inside the 5-yard line across its study sample.


The other assumptions are illustrative, not verified league-wide rates for this exact play.


Probability of scoring the winning points on this possession

Kick on third down

98.00%​

Run, then kick

97.62%​


Running calculation

\[50\%+(44\%\times98\%)+(5\%\times90\%)\]
\[=97.62\%\]
The kick has a 0.38-percentage-point advantage, or about four additional wins per 1,000 comparable possessions in this simplified model.

How​

A 10-yard holding penalty can move the kick from approximately 19 yards to 29 yards. A 5-yard false start moves it to 24 yards. Both remain manageable, but they reduce the advantage of being at the 2-yard line.

One important nuance: a false start or other pre-snap penalty can also happen when lining up to kick. However, on third down the team generally still has the opportunity to attempt the kick after enforcement. That makes the third-down kick especially attractive.

My​

Under the assumptions above, kicking on third down is mathematically preferable, but only marginally.

I would choose the kick for three reasons:

  1. An above-average kicker should be highly reliable from 19 yards.
  2. Running introduces additional turnover and field-position risks.
  3. Kicking on third down preserves fourth down if a mishandled snap can be recovered without losing possession.
The result is sensitive to the assumptions. If the offense has a 60% chance of scoring a touchdown and very little turnover risk, running could become the better option. Conversely, a team with a 40% touchdown probability should be even more inclined to kick.

Bottom line: For a typical FBS team with an above-average kicker, already having stopped the opponent in overtime, I would send out the field goal unit on third down. The available evidence doesn't establish a definitive universal answer, but a realistic model that accounts for penalties and turnovers gives the kick a slight advantage.
 
AI Concludes that you typically have a BETTER chance of winning by kicking than running another play by a small total of 0.38% (but depends on the accuracy of the kicker as well) but results in the times you don't convert being reduced by about 16% (i.e. don't convert 2.38% of the time you run then kick, don't convert 2% of the time you kick early):

Conclusion: "In college football overtime, if the opponent has already been stopped and any field goal wins, I would strongly favor kicking on third down from the 2-yard line."

Mathematical Analysis:
With an above-average college kicker, I estimate that kicking immediately has roughly a 97–98% chance of winning, compared with approximately 96–98% for running another play and then kicking if necessary.

The important distinction is that another offensive play introduces risks that don't exist if you kick immediately: offensive holding, false starts, a bad exchange, a fumble, or a tackle for loss. A penalty doesn't necessarily lose the game, but it can turn a 19-yard field goal into a 29-yard or longer attempt.

These are modeled estimates rather than measured probabilities for this exact situation. Let's incorporate those risks explicitly.

A​

Assume the following for an above-average FBS kicker and a reasonably effective short-yardage offense.

AssumptionProbability
Make a centered 19-yard FG98%
Score a TD on the run50%
Turnover on the run1%
Penalty or significant loss that worsens the kick5%
Other unsuccessful run, leaving an easy FG44%
Make FG after penalty/significant loss90%
The 98% kicking estimate is plausible for a strong college kicker at this distance, although not guaranteed. For perspective, one college-football analysis found 95.1% success on field goals attempted inside the 5-yard line across its study sample.


The other assumptions are illustrative, not verified league-wide rates for this exact play.


Probability of scoring the winning points on this possession

Kick on third down

98.00%​

Run, then kick

97.62%​


Running calculation

\[50\%+(44\%\times98\%)+(5\%\times90\%)\]
\[=97.62\%\]
The kick has a 0.38-percentage-point advantage, or about four additional wins per 1,000 comparable possessions in this simplified model.

How​

A 10-yard holding penalty can move the kick from approximately 19 yards to 29 yards. A 5-yard false start moves it to 24 yards. Both remain manageable, but they reduce the advantage of being at the 2-yard line.

One important nuance: a false start or other pre-snap penalty can also happen when lining up to kick. However, on third down the team generally still has the opportunity to attempt the kick after enforcement. That makes the third-down kick especially attractive.

My​

Under the assumptions above, kicking on third down is mathematically preferable, but only marginally.

I would choose the kick for three reasons:

  1. An above-average kicker should be highly reliable from 19 yards.
  2. Running introduces additional turnover and field-position risks.
  3. Kicking on third down preserves fourth down if a mishandled snap can be recovered without losing possession.
The result is sensitive to the assumptions. If the offense has a 60% chance of scoring a touchdown and very little turnover risk, running could become the better option. Conversely, a team with a 40% touchdown probability should be even more inclined to kick.

Bottom line: For a typical FBS team with an above-average kicker, already having stopped the opponent in overtime, I would send out the field goal unit on third down. The available evidence doesn't establish a definitive universal answer, but a realistic model that accounts for penalties and turnovers gives the kick a slight advantage.
In the presser Sawvel was asked and he said when Tote ran on first down he saw the ball move in his arms when he was hit so he saved the team from themselves
 
In the presser Sawvel was asked and he said when Tote ran on first down he saw the ball move in his arms when he was hit so he saved the team from themselves
I saw that. Seems Sawvel’s decision was made on a subjective belief watching the game. I just wanted to point out that objective math probabilities appear to support his decision as well (although doubt that was on his mind).

If I ran a college football team - I’d personally probably rely heavily on mathematical probability models.
 
AI Concludes that you typically have a BETTER chance of winning by kicking than running another play by a small total of 0.38% (but depends on the accuracy of the kicker as well) but results in the times you don't convert being reduced by about 16% (i.e. don't convert 2.38% of the time you run then kick, don't convert 2% of the time you kick early):

Conclusion: "In college football overtime, if the opponent has already been stopped and any field goal wins, I would strongly favor kicking on third down from the 2-yard line."

Mathematical Analysis:
With an above-average college kicker, I estimate that kicking immediately has roughly a 97–98% chance of winning, compared with approximately 96–98% for running another play and then kicking if necessary.

The important distinction is that another offensive play introduces risks that don't exist if you kick immediately: offensive holding, false starts, a bad exchange, a fumble, or a tackle for loss. A penalty doesn't necessarily lose the game, but it can turn a 19-yard field goal into a 29-yard or longer attempt.

These are modeled estimates rather than measured probabilities for this exact situation. Let's incorporate those risks explicitly.

A​

Assume the following for an above-average FBS kicker and a reasonably effective short-yardage offense.

AssumptionProbability
Make a centered 19-yard FG98%
Score a TD on the run50%
Turnover on the run1%
Penalty or significant loss that worsens the kick5%
Other unsuccessful run, leaving an easy FG44%
Make FG after penalty/significant loss90%
The 98% kicking estimate is plausible for a strong college kicker at this distance, although not guaranteed. For perspective, one college-football analysis found 95.1% success on field goals attempted inside the 5-yard line across its study sample.


The other assumptions are illustrative, not verified league-wide rates for this exact play.


Probability of scoring the winning points on this possession

Kick on third down

98.00%​

Run, then kick

97.62%​


Running calculation

\[50\%+(44\%\times98\%)+(5\%\times90\%)\]
\[=97.62\%\]
The kick has a 0.38-percentage-point advantage, or about four additional wins per 1,000 comparable possessions in this simplified model.

How​

A 10-yard holding penalty can move the kick from approximately 19 yards to 29 yards. A 5-yard false start moves it to 24 yards. Both remain manageable, but they reduce the advantage of being at the 2-yard line.

One important nuance: a false start or other pre-snap penalty can also happen when lining up to kick. However, on third down the team generally still has the opportunity to attempt the kick after enforcement. That makes the third-down kick especially attractive.

My​

Under the assumptions above, kicking on third down is mathematically preferable, but only marginally.

I would choose the kick for three reasons:

  1. An above-average kicker should be highly reliable from 19 yards.
  2. Running introduces additional turnover and field-position risks.
  3. Kicking on third down preserves fourth down if a mishandled snap can be recovered without losing possession.
The result is sensitive to the assumptions. If the offense has a 60% chance of scoring a touchdown and very little turnover risk, running could become the better option. Conversely, a team with a 40% touchdown probability should be even more inclined to kick.

Bottom line: For a typical FBS team with an above-average kicker, already having stopped the opponent in overtime, I would send out the field goal unit on third down. The available evidence doesn't establish a definitive universal answer, but a realistic model that accounts for penalties and turnovers gives the kick a slight advantage.
Your analysis is flawed. We had two downs to try and score from the 1 yard line. We spent 2nd down centering the ball. The decision did not start with the 3rd down, it was after 1st down.
 
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LOL, you are using a false statement to justify your opinion

Your analysis is flawed. We had two downs to try and score from the 1 yard line. We spent 2nd down centering the ball. The decision did not start with the 3rd down, it was after 1st down.
It's not. They ran Harris on 1st down. Ball was centered on 2nd down to set up game winning kick on 3rd down. AI concludes that best chance of converting and winning based on the math probabilities is doing exactly what the Pokes did. Folks don't have to like math statistical probability models; but they do provide a limited objective analysis in decision making.



AI Analysis:
CONCLUSION: kicking on second down actually has a higher probability of winning than running twice.

The critical issue is that every additional rushing attempt introduces another opportunity for a turnover or penalty.

1.​

We have second-and-goal from the 2-yard line in college overtime. The opponent has already failed to score, so any score wins.

OutcomeProbability
Successful 19-yard field goal98%
Rushing touchdown50%
Turnover on rushing attempt1%
Penalty or significant loss5%
Unsuccessful run, no adverse outcome44%
Field goal after adverse outcome90%
For simplicity, we assume a penalty or significant loss ends the rushing strategy and leads to a field goal attempt. We also assume the same probabilities for each rushing attempt.

2.​

The math is straightforward:

\[P(\text{Win})=0.98\]

98.00%​

Probability of winning with an immediate successful field goal

3.​

There are three ways to win:

OutcomeCalculationWin probability
Rushing TD50%50.00%
Unsuccessful run, then FG44% × 98%43.12%
Penalty/loss, then FG5% × 90%4.50%
Total97.62%
\[P(\text{Win})=0.50+(0.44\times0.98)+(0.05\times0.90)\]
\[=\boxed{97.62\%}\]

4.​

Now we introduce a second rushing attempt, but only if the first run fails without an adverse outcome.

Decision​

Run on second down

50% TD

Win
44% Stop

Run again
6% Adverse

Turnover or FG

If stopped: Run on third down

50% TD

Win
44% Stop

Kick FG
6% Adverse

Turnover or FG
First, calculate the chance of winning if we reach third down and run again:

\[0.50+(0.44\times0.98)+(0.05\times0.90)=0.9762\]
Now calculate the entire strategy:

\[P(\text{Win})=0.50+(0.44\times0.9762)+(0.05\times0.90)\]
\[=0.974528\]

97.45%​

Probability of winning by running twice if necessary, then kicking

5.​

Kick on second down

98.00%

Run once, then kick

97.62%

Run twice, then kick

97.45%

Under this model, kicking immediately wins approximately 5.5 more times per 1,000 possessions than running twice.

6.​

The surprising finding is that an additional rushing attempt isn't automatically beneficial. When the field goal is already 98% likely to succeed, a rushing touchdown only avoids the remaining 2% chance of a missed kick. That benefit can be outweighed by turnovers and penalties.

There is also a limitation to this model: a missed field goal or turnover does not necessarily mean the game is lost immediately. A full win-probability model would need to account for the opponent's chances in subsequent overtime possessions, the probability of a botched snap on the kick, and the possibility of recovering and retrying on an earlier down.

My conclusion: With an above-average college kicker, the ball centered on the 2-yard line, and the opponent already stopped, I would kick on second down. Under our stated assumptions, it produces the highest probability of scoring the winning points on that possession.
 
Kicking the field goal (twice if necessary in case of a botched snap) gave us better odds to win than trying to jam the ball in from the 1, especially after getting stuffed earlier in the game.

Whereas Hawaii tried to get cute (throwing on 4th and 1 in overtime, rather than running or kicking the field goal), Wyoming took the surest thing possible, and Wyoming won the game.
 
I should caveat...AI math models actually believe Sawvel made the WRONG choice for rushing the ball on first down. According to the math model, he should have kicked immediately!

AI Analysis:
At first-and-goal from the 2-yard line in college overtime, with the opponent already stopped and an above-average kicker, the math slightly favors kicking immediately under the assumptions we've been using.

Assumptions​

  • 98% chance of making a 19-yard field goal.
  • 50% chance of scoring a rushing touchdown from the 2.
  • 1% chance of a turnover per rushing attempt.
  • 5% chance of a penalty or significant loss.
  • 90% chance of making the field goal after an adverse outcome.
  • 44% chance of an unsuccessful run without an adverse outcome.

Mathematical​

For an immediate field goal:

\[P(\text{Score})=0.98\]
For one run followed by a field goal if necessary:

\[P_1=0.50+(0.44\times0.98)+(0.05\times0.90)\]
\[P_1=97.62\%\]
For two runs:

\[P_2=0.50+(0.44\times0.9762)+(0.05\times0.90)\]
\[P_2=97.4528\%\]
For three runs:

\[P_3=0.50+(0.44\times0.974528)+(0.05\times0.90)\]
\[P_3=97.3792\%\]

Results​

StrategyProbability of scoring
Kick on first down98.000%
Run once, then kick97.620%
Run twice, then kick97.453%
Run three times, then kick97.379%
Probability of scoring the winning points on this possession

Kick immediately

98.00%

Run once

97.62%

Run twice

97.45%

Run three times

97.38%

Why​

The 50% touchdown probability sounds attractive, but a touchdown provides no additional value over a field goal in this particular overtime situation.

The rushing play only eliminates the 2% risk of missing the field goal when it succeeds. Meanwhile, it introduces the risk of a turnover, penalty, or loss of yardage.

Under these assumptions, the break-even turnover probability is approximately 0.61% per rushing attempt. Above that, kicking is preferable.

Bottom line: I would kick on first-and goal from the 2 with a reliable kicker. The modeled advantage is about 0.62 percentage points compared with running three times, or roughly six additional successful possessions per 1,000 opportunities.
 
I just googled it and the probability of a fg from 10 yards out vs 1 yard out is slightly higher . So if you don’t get the TD on 3rd down and somehow lose yards or get a penalty it actually HELPS you on 4th down convert the fg. So the risk of a TO is really the only factor in possibly kicking it on 3rd. Getting a penalty or losing yards is a non factor in the decision
 
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LOL, you are using a false statement to justify your opinion

Your analysis is flawed. We had two downs to try and score from the 1 yard line. We spent 2nd down centering the ball. The decision did not start with the 3rd down, it was after 1st down.
What are you using to determine the truthness of my claim? Your own opinion?

As Oredigger has pointed out, mathematical models based on previous data indicate that kicking the ball in that scenario is actually the better option to win the game. In fact, the models recommend kicking the ball even sooner (1st down).

The chances of winning the game is high in both scenarios, but the edge based on pure probability is in the favor of kicking the ball. Unless you want to argue that the mathematical model is incorrect, I'm not sure how you come to any other conclusion. What are you forming your opinion on? What feels right? Gut feeling? What most coaches would do? I just don't understand why you are so sure kicking the ball was the wrong decision despite mathematical models saying otherwise.
 
I just googled it and the probability of a fg from 10 yards out vs 1 yard out is slightly higher . So if you don’t get the TD and somehow lose yards or get a penalty it actually HELPS you on 4th down convert the fg. So the risk of a TO is really the only factor in possible kicking it on 3rd. Getting a penalty is a non factor in the decision
This is probably true the further away from the center of the field you get. Away from center, the angle for a kick gets smaller and smaller as you approach the goal line.

If you look at center of the field only, then my guess is that make percentages are pretty close but with a slight edge to the closer kick.
 
Kicking the field goal (twice if necessary in case of a botched snap) gave us better odds to win than trying to jam the ball in from the 1, especially after getting stuffed earlier in the game.

Whereas Hawaii tried to get cute (throwing on 4th and 1 in overtime, rather than running or kicking the field goal), Wyoming took the surest thing possible, and Wyoming won the game.
Bolded text for emphasis. Some of the posters here have so much hate for Sawvel that they're nitpicking calls that WON THE GAME. Again, WE WON THE GAME. I swear we could win the conference championship and people here are so blinded by their hate of Sawvel that they would demand he be fired for not calling enough running plays during the win.

To be clear: I don't think Sawvel is going to be our coach next year. I think he's in over his head. I'm rooting for the guy, but I don't think he's the answer.
 
Bolded text for emphasis. Some of the posters here have so much hate for Sawvel that they're nitpicking calls that WON THE GAME. Again, WE WON THE GAME. I swear we could win the conference championship and people here are so blinded by their hate of Sawvel that they would demand he be fired for not calling enough running plays during the win.

To be clear: I don't think Sawvel is going to be our coach next year. I think he's in over his head. I'm rooting for the guy, but I don't think he's the answer.
well you're wrong about the kicking aspect AND sawvel being our head coach next year.
 

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