Phase 2 delayed??

[NowherePoke]

shouldn't surprise anyone, shoulda just scrapped and built a whole new one, might have went faster/better, cheaper...Tom's probably backtracking alot

Styme - can you imagine what it would cost to build a new one these days?

That is why I always bitch about half-assing anything. Because at some point, it will catch up with you, and bite you right on the ass.

Auburn built a new 9k arena about 5-6 years ago for $86 million. I would guess $100 million would be the absolute minimum to build a new 10k arena in Laramie.

I think for the most part, large basketball arenas are better suited to renovations than to tear downs. Lots of great examples (The Pit and Koch Arena in Wichita are two that I really like). I think the concept of a $30MM renovation and upgrade of the AA was fantastic and by far the best decision for UW. LIke most things related to UW athletics, it's the execution that is the problem.


In this episode of "how the other half lives", UT down here is in the process of putting together plans for a new arena to replace the Erwin Center in Austin (long overdue for a program of their stature) and they are throwing around numbers in the $200MM range.

 

[NowherePoke]

Because I'm too lazy to go looking for it, anyone know off the top of their head what the total cost was for the recent War renovations, the recent AA renovations, and the planned AA renovations?

The AA was supposed to be $30MM total. $10MM for first phase, $20MM for second phase. Wicks probably knows more, but I believe Phase 1 was over budget and Phase 2 is obviously coming in over budget.

Not sure on the War without researching it, but I was thinking about $20-$25MM.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

I can concur on the increase in construction costs. My buddy is a contractor, I helped him build a lake house in the summer of 2013. He was supposed to build in summer of 2012, but the owner couldn't get all the funding organized in time. The owner got quite the shock when a revised budget was given to them because from 2012 to 2013, the cost of building supplies went up at least 30% in one year.

 

[TSpoke]

Seems to me this is just a speed bump with the AA, this project will get done because it is a priority for the University and the State.

There is another major project in the pipeline as well with the RAC 2.0 that has been given matching funds by the state and construction could start as early as this Fall if enough money is raised in the summer. So don't take the phase II AA news as the state and university have no vision, the project was priced out in 2010 and 2011 and prices have gone up significantly since then.

The sky is not falling and UW is better off facility wise than most MW schools at this point with the investments being made.

This is what I'm thinking or at least hoping. Would rather they take the time to figure out how to get it done right then try to meet the schedule and end up with an inferior product.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Because I'm too lazy to go looking for it, anyone know off the top of their head what the total cost was for the recent War renovations, the recent AA renovations, and the planned AA renovations?

The AA was supposed to be $30MM total. $10MM for first phase, $20MM for second phase. Wicks probably knows more, but I believe Phase 1 was over budget and Phase 2 is obviously coming in over budget.

Not sure on the War without researching it, but I was thinking about $20-$25MM.

Thanks. Definitely a long ways from new. I think new bball arenas are somewhere around 100MM right now and football somewhere around 250MM.

Man, we need a Phil K or T Boone :lol:

 

[johnywyo]

We have our T Boone, Ben Blalock one of the best fundraisers this side of the Mississippi. The Golden Goose, what we don't have is an adequate AD. Until we do, the status quo is sufficient.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

We have our T Boone, Ben Blalock one of the best fundraisers this side of the Mississippi. The Golden Goose, what we don't have is an adequate AD. Until we do, the status quo is sufficient.

How is this burmans fault? The job was quoted in 2011...it's 2015 now. Pricing changes, the price of labor changes, material costs change. This is part of construction. Estimating and forecasting might as we'll be voodoo because it's impossible to accurately predict 6 months out sometimes let alone 3-5 years. This is not an AD problem. If anything I give the Athletic department credit for saying whoa, let's get this right even if it means delaying

 

[Wyolie Coyote]

We have our T Boone, Ben Blalock one of the best fundraisers this side of the Mississippi. The Golden Goose, what we don't have is an adequate AD. Until we do, the status quo is sufficient.

How is this burmans fault? The job was quoted in 2011...it's 2015 now. Pricing changes, the price of labor changes, material costs change. This is part of construction. Estimating and forecasting might as we'll be voodoo because it's impossible to accurately predict 6 months out sometimes let alone 3-5 years. This is not an AD problem. If anything I give the Athletic department credit for saying whoa, let's get this right even if it means delaying

Come on man. Anyone in business knew it would cost much more 4 years later. There should have been excess funds raised for just such circumstances. It is not like this is a rarity. Construction costs rise year after year, yet we thought a 2011 estimate would remain unchanged in 2015. That is pretty short sighted.

 

[TSpoke]

We have our T Boone, Ben Blalock one of the best fundraisers this side of the Mississippi. The Golden Goose, what we don't have is an adequate AD. Until we do, the status quo is sufficient.

How is this burmans fault? The job was quoted in 2011...it's 2015 now. Pricing changes, the price of labor changes, material costs change. This is part of construction. Estimating and forecasting might as we'll be voodoo because it's impossible to accurately predict 6 months out sometimes let alone 3-5 years. This is not an AD problem. If anything I give the Athletic department credit for saying whoa, let's get this right even if it means delaying

Thats what I'm thinking too. From what I'm hearing if anyone is at fault it is the facilities people at UW. The athletic dept. decideds what they want and has someone design it then it gets sent to the the facilities people(forget what the correct term for them is) and they price it out and give an estimated cost and then the athletic deptartment goes about finding the funding for it. So if anyone screwed up it was in estimating the cost but as was pointed out that was years ago and cost have risen faster than they could have guessed.
I'm dissapointed its not getting done this year but am glad they are taking the time to get it done right and not just half-assed it with the money we do have and end up with something that no one is happy with.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

On one hand I agree that there should have been some forecasting of the inflation of the project costs over the time from estimate to actual construction. On the other hand, I don't think anyone could have predicted the dramatic increase in costs over the last 2 years, as they were far beyond the normal level of inflation. When you are talking about a $10 million project, and in one year it turns in to a $13 million project, that is some significant change that I don't think many would see coming.

So I can see where part of this could be to blame on the AD, but on the other hand not all of it.

 

[kansasCowboy]

We have our T Boone, Ben Blalock one of the best fundraisers this side of the Mississippi. The Golden Goose, what we don't have is an adequate AD. Until we do, the status quo is sufficient.

How is this burmans fault? The job was quoted in 2011...it's 2015 now. Pricing changes, the price of labor changes, material costs change. This is part of construction. Estimating and forecasting might as we'll be voodoo because it's impossible to accurately predict 6 months out sometimes let alone 3-5 years. This is not an AD problem. If anything I give the Athletic department credit for saying whoa, let's get this right even if it means delaying

Thats what I'm thinking too. From what I'm hearing if anyone is at fault it is the facilities people at UW. The athletic dept. decideds what they want and has someone design it then it gets sent to the the facilities people(forget what the correct term for them is) and they price it out and give an estimated cost and then the athletic deptartment goes about finding the funding for it. So if anyone screwed up it was in estimating the cost but as was pointed out that was years ago and cost have risen faster than they could have guessed.
I'm dissapointed its not getting done this year but am glad they are taking the time to get it done right and not just half-assed it with the money we do have and end up with something that no one is happy with.

Completely agree. There is nothing you can do on estimates and rising costs, it is how construction companies work to profit and yes, screw people. People are impressed with the first phase, and the state and donors will do what they can to make sure it gets completed. I'm happy we have an Athletic Dept that decides to hault the brakes and make good decisions with everyone's money on this. A key to helping with the budget is filling the Stadium and Arena on gamed days. That goes a long ways in an athletic budget and revenues. We avged 6,300 this last year, that's probably enough to help us break even or gain a little in our budget. Football will be a struggle to draw good crowds this year with a pretty weak schedule coming to Laramie. If we do well this year, who knows, maybe we draw an avg of 20k for our home games, maybe a little more. Basketball will hopefully continue to succeed and will draw bigger crowds. An 8k avg would be beneficial.
And if they continue to keep an eye out on different companies to do the renovation and keep people well informed, donors will probably answer the call. We'll be okay, and even if it's a year out, we will have one damn fine arena for a solid coach and group of players...

GO POKES!!!

 

[calpoke25]

Just another example of inept leadership at the top. They really couldn't project the cost of inflation or account for that possibility? It's a freaking joke over there. Read the article and quotes in the Cheyenne paper yesterday from Burman. Basically he admitted to knowing this wasn't going to happen for a while now. It's "back to the drawing board," and "our donors feel this bla bla bla."

Seriously it's a joke to plan a project of this magnitude and go so all-in on advertising it only to then say we're 3 million short? They've still been peddling phase 2 renovations to the fans last season but according to Burman its been apparent for a while that it wasn't going to happen?

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

We have our T Boone, Ben Blalock one of the best fundraisers this side of the Mississippi. The Golden Goose, what we don't have is an adequate AD. Until we do, the status quo is sufficient.

How is this burmans fault? The job was quoted in 2011...it's 2015 now. Pricing changes, the price of labor changes, material costs change. This is part of construction. Estimating and forecasting might as we'll be voodoo because it's impossible to accurately predict 6 months out sometimes let alone 3-5 years. This is not an AD problem. If anything I give the Athletic department credit for saying whoa, let's get this right even if it means delaying

Come on man. Anyone in business knew it would cost much more 4 years later. There should have been excess funds raised for just such circumstances. It is not like this is a rarity. Construction costs rise year after year, yet we thought a 2011 estimate would remain unchanged in 2015. That is pretty short sighted.

Seriously! In 2011 when the construction firm sad 25 million he should have actually said no, 30 million? Are you serious? Tom Burman is supposed to be the expert on the University of Wyoming AND the construction industry? Negative. Thats why companies bid these projects....they're the expert. He raised what he was told he needed. Its not like he's asking for $1000. He is asking for millions. You ask and ask and ask and sometimes you ask too much. This is a situation not limited to UW and Burman. This kind of thing happens all the time in the construction industry. You're quoted one price and then it changes. There are thousands of jobs that get halted or cancelled all together due to price increases. C'mon man, sometimes things happen that are outside of the control of those involved. You want to rag on Burman for Phase 2 getting delayed, wheres the love for Burman getting Phase 1 done without a hitch?

 

[Wyolie Coyote]

We have our T Boone, Ben Blalock one of the best fundraisers this side of the Mississippi. The Golden Goose, what we don't have is an adequate AD. Until we do, the status quo is sufficient.

How is this burmans fault? The job was quoted in 2011...it's 2015 now. Pricing changes, the price of labor changes, material costs change. This is part of construction. Estimating and forecasting might as we'll be voodoo because it's impossible to accurately predict 6 months out sometimes let alone 3-5 years. This is not an AD problem. If anything I give the Athletic department credit for saying whoa, let's get this right even if it means delaying

Come on man. Anyone in business knew it would cost much more 4 years later. There should have been excess funds raised for just such circumstances. It is not like this is a rarity. Construction costs rise year after year, yet we thought a 2011 estimate would remain unchanged in 2015. That is pretty short sighted.

Seriously! In 2011 when the construction firm sad 25 million he should have actually said no, 30 million? Are you serious? Tom Burman is supposed to be the expert on the University of Wyoming AND the construction industry? Negative. Thats why companies bid these projects....they're the expert. He raised what he was told he needed. Its not like he's asking for $1000. He is asking for millions. You ask and ask and ask and sometimes you ask too much. This is a situation not limited to UW and Burman. This kind of thing happens all the time in the construction industry. You're quoted one price and then it changes. There are thousands of jobs that get halted or cancelled all together due to price increases. C'mon man, sometimes things happen that are outside of the control of those involved. You want to rag on Burman for Phase 2 getting delayed, wheres the love for Burman getting Phase 1 done without a hitch?

Like I said, you should always be prepared for inflated costs especially when the project is 4 years out. He has known for a year that they would be short funds. Where was the foresight to get the additional funding to complete? And if you think Phase I went off without a hitch, better check the numbers. That is part of the issue.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

We have our T Boone, Ben Blalock one of the best fundraisers this side of the Mississippi. The Golden Goose, what we don't have is an adequate AD. Until we do, the status quo is sufficient.

How is this burmans fault? The job was quoted in 2011...it's 2015 now. Pricing changes, the price of labor changes, material costs change. This is part of construction. Estimating and forecasting might as we'll be voodoo because it's impossible to accurately predict 6 months out sometimes let alone 3-5 years. This is not an AD problem. If anything I give the Athletic department credit for saying whoa, let's get this right even if it means delaying

Come on man. Anyone in business knew it would cost much more 4 years later. There should have been excess funds raised for just such circumstances. It is not like this is a rarity. Construction costs rise year after year, yet we thought a 2011 estimate would remain unchanged in 2015. That is pretty short sighted.

Seriously! In 2011 when the construction firm sad 25 million he should have actually said no, 30 million? Are you serious? Tom Burman is supposed to be the expert on the University of Wyoming AND the construction industry? Negative. Thats why companies bid these projects....they're the expert. He raised what he was told he needed. Its not like he's asking for $1000. He is asking for millions. You ask and ask and ask and sometimes you ask too much. This is a situation not limited to UW and Burman. This kind of thing happens all the time in the construction industry. You're quoted one price and then it changes. There are thousands of jobs that get halted or cancelled all together due to price increases. C'mon man, sometimes things happen that are outside of the control of those involved. You want to rag on Burman for Phase 2 getting delayed, wheres the love for Burman getting Phase 1 done without a hitch?

Like I said, you should always be prepared for inflated costs especially when the project is 4 years out. He has known for a year that they would be short funds. Where was the foresight to get the additional funding to complete? And if you think Phase I went off without a hitch, better check the numbers. That is part of the issue.

Correct. Because the price of building went up... I'm not sure what you're missing here.... The construction firm didn't have the foresight on this, why the hell should the Athletic Department....

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Correct. Because the price of building went up... I'm not sure what you're missing here.... The construction firm didn't have to foresight on this, why the hell should the Athletic Department....

What timeline was the construction company given? Were they asked for a projection 4 years from the estimate or were they just asked for an estimate?

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Correct. Because the price of building went up... I'm not sure what you're missing here.... The construction firm didn't have to foresight on this, why the hell should the Athletic Department....

What timeline was the construction company given? Were they asked for a projection 4 years from the estimate or were they just asked for an estimate?

The estimate was in 2011, the ground was broken in 2014. Thats the timeline as I know it. I don't know the fine print details

 

[WestWYOPoke]

This isn't rocket science people. NO ONE, not even people who are life long contractors and do this EVERY DAY could have predicted the increase in costs in 2013...it was THAT significant. This wasn't a typical 5-10%...it was closer to 30-35%. Again, NO ONE would predict that kind of anomaly when creating a project quote. As someone else said, are you going to get a quote for $25 million but say "lets raise $30 million just in case"...NO, that's ludicrous.

As long as the project gets done properly, I'm fine with this.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

So, Burman has 25 million put away and is awaiting another 5 million?

 

[WestWYOPoke]

I have no clue on the actual numbers, I'm throwing out arbitrary numbers for the sake of my point...the $25 million figure was used earlier in this thread so I piggybacked off of it.

My belief would be that the money for the original quote is in the bank, but now we need to raise money to pay for the difference in original quote and updated quote. If that is NOT the case, I retract my previous statements and may God have mercy on Burman's soul.