Our Offense Sucks

[Cosmic Cowboy]

The actual offense doesn't bother me and the pace of play doesn't bother me at all and never has. I actually like the motion but my problem is jacking up so many 3's instead of using the multiple guys we have that can take the ball to the basket to do just that, instead of just jacking shots up from deep. When you have no low post threat but you have multiple guys capable of creating shots and getting to the basket then that is what you need to do.

I'm not bitching about Shyatt at all though. He knows more about his team than any of us. I just would like to see more dribble drive myself but that is my personal preference so it isn't like it matters :lol:

This. A 3 now and then is fine, especially when there's a hot streak going. But just lobbing them up over and over with nothing going in, it may be time to try something else.

Also lets not kid our ourselves into thinking there weren't some ill advised 3's and just a few poor throw em up there shots going down. Most of it is due to youth and not knowing the roles yet. It's gonna take time but I think our offense will be more exciting then it has been in years for probably the next 2 to 3 years at least.

 

[Cowduck]

Well, getting baskets in transition is going to depend on the defense, not the offense. It's hard to run off of opponents' made baskets. The nature of our defense is such that we're not going to create a lot of fast break opportunities regardless. We'd have to extend the defense to really do that and Shyatt is too concerned with defensive solidity to take that risk. I mean if you want this team to be Tark's UNLV you have the wrong coach. Last year when there was an opportunity for a runout we'd take it. It isn't like Josh Adams was pulling up and setting up the half court when he was one on one after a turnover or long rebound, but we'll never be a pressing/run and gun team under Shyatt. You will see shots taken earlier in the shot clock - first available good shot. And you'll see a lot of threes because those are high value shots. If you don't like it, deal with it because that's how the game has evolved over the last five years. Statistics have pretty conclusively demonstrated the value of the three point shot. Everyone laughed at Byron Scott last year when he said the Lakers were going to minimize threes. The best teams in the NBA are the ones that have gone pace and space in their offensive philosophy.

That's not to say things can't be improved. As I've been saying, if we're going to run everything through Adams then he has to get the offense initiated earlier. We should try to get him off the ball more. I'll bet dollars to donuts Shyatt was unhappy with the ball movement in the ISU game and addressed it in film and practice sessions. My point is, people are drawing an AWFUL lot of conclusions from a ridiculously small and unrepresentative sample size. Chill the fuck out and see where we are in February.

 

[LanderPoke]

Threes are great, but who on our team has proven to be an above average three point shooter?

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Threes are great, but who on our team has proven to be an above average three point shooter?

Maybe Aka Gorski? MAYBE. I think Marshall will greatly help. McManimal has been streaky. Tonight they could all come out like gang busters and shoot lights out. Its just depends. Every team has cold nights and hot nights, lets hope we see more hot nights going forward

 

[NowherePoke]

The actual offense doesn't bother me and the pace of play doesn't bother me at all and never has. I actually like the motion but my problem is jacking up so many 3's instead of using the multiple guys we have that can take the ball to the basket to do just that, instead of just jacking shots up from deep. When you have no low post threat but you have multiple guys capable of creating shots and getting to the basket then that is what you need to do.

I'm not bitching about Shyatt at all though. He knows more about his team than any of us. I just would like to see more dribble drive myself but that is my personal preference so it isn't like it matters :lol:

Well said. I don't really understand the complaints about our offense. Back when McClain was here we all complained about the lack of motion, passing, and general ball movement in his offense. Now, we complain because there is too much motion, passing, etc.

The issue is less about offensive design than about execution and personnel development. Those are all ultimately the coaches responsibility of course, but those are aspects that will improve as the team gains experience. As currently constructed our perimeter players have not been aggressive at attacking the paint and we have shot the ball poorly. Those are execution errors.

The other thing to realize is that our offensive design is hampered by our personnel limitations. There is literally nobody on the roster that can convert at an even decent efficiency level after catching the ball in the post. For the most part, we don't even try. I have seen Barnes try a couple of times that resulted in misses and that's about it. If your perimeter players shoot poorly and you have no post presence, the defense can be very aggressive at cutting off penetration and helping on defense. We don't have a lot of players that bend the defense and get them out of position.

I think a modified rotation could help, but they all need experience. Justin James has the talent to threaten the defense at 3 levels, but he is still learning when and where to pick his spots so currently his actions result in very low efficiency possessions due to poor shot selection. A year from now, he will be a major impact player (maybe a month from now, the talent is there). I believe Gorski can be a high percentage perimeter shooter and Morris Marshall can score in a variety of ways. Give these guys a little time to gel and a rotation that is heavy on Adams, Marshall, James, and Gorski can do some damage.

Having said that, it was mentioned earlier in the thread but it bears repeating: I have never seen a Shyatt team play defense like we have over the first two games and exhibition. The youth and inexperience is obvious as is our relative lack of size/athleticism (depending on the lineup). I expect that will be corrected as the season goes on.

 

[NowherePoke]

Well, getting baskets in transition is going to depend on the defense, not the offense. It's hard to run off of opponents' made baskets. The nature of our defense is such that we're not going to create a lot of fast break opportunities regardless. We'd have to extend the defense to really do that and Shyatt is too concerned with defensive solidity to take that risk. I mean if you want this team to be Tark's UNLV you have the wrong coach. Last year when there was an opportunity for a runout we'd take it. It isn't like Josh Adams was pulling up and setting up the half court when he was one on one after a turnover or long rebound, but we'll never be a pressing/run and gun team under Shyatt. You will see shots taken earlier in the shot clock - first available good shot. And you'll see a lot of threes because those are high value shots. If you don't like it, deal with it because that's how the game has evolved over the last five years. Statistics have pretty conclusively demonstrated the value of the three point shot. Everyone laughed at Byron Scott last year when he said the Lakers were going to minimize threes. The best teams in the NBA are the ones that have gone pace and space in their offensive philosophy.

That's not to say things can't be improved. As I've been saying, if we're going to run everything through Adams then he has to get the offense initiated earlier. We should try to get him off the ball more. I'll bet dollars to donuts Shyatt was unhappy with the ball movement in the ISU game and addressed it in film and practice sessions. My point is, people are drawing an AWFUL lot of conclusions from a ridiculously small and unrepresentative sample size. Chill the fuck out and see where we are in February.

Totally agree on the first paragraph. Very good description of Shyatt's defense. It is designed to prevent easy looks and transition. That's why we don't go after the offensive glass, to make sure that we get back and prevent transition.

The statistics are pretty clear on tempo, there isn't a correlation between tempo and competitive success. A large number of very good teams operate at slow tempos and a large number of bad teams operate at fast tempos. It's about the efficiency (on both offense and defense) of those possessions.

 

[LanderPoke]

Yup. In order for threes to be more beneficial than twos you need to usually be able to shoot at least 31-33%. Is Mcmann the only one that can shoot at that efficiency? Sadly this is the case so far in everyone's career. This is why I think our offense is no good for this team. Stand around until 7 seconds left on the shot clock and jack a three? This would work if we had a bunch of good shooters. Why not get to the rim and take the other high efficiency shot in basketball: a layup.

 

[WYCowboy]

It seems our shooters shoot lights out in practice, but in games they shoot a low percentage. The difference must be that they have hands in their face in games, but not in practice.
I believe our big men need to step up their game offensively, defensively, and rebounding. They need to take the shot if it is there and go up strong. If they don't have the shot, kick it out to the open shooter

 

[Cosmic Cowboy]

It seems our shooters shoot lights out in practice, but in games they shoot a low percentage. The difference must be that they have hands in their face in games, but not in practice.
I believe our big men need to step up their game offensively, defensively, and rebounding. They need to take the shot if it is there and go up strong. If they don't have the shot, kick it out to the open shooter

This +1. Our bigs might not be world beaters but we need to get them involved. Just letting them touch the ball and draw defenses in possibly???? I didn't get a feel for them offensively hardly at all and sometimes if you score a hoop it gets you fired up for D. It's all going to be about intelligent and timed movement. The bigs might know they are more 4th or 5th options on offense but we have to figure out a way to at least keep defenses honest. We might not have any answers this year but I kinda want to see more of Barnes just because he's our only real space eater. Get down there and bang man, look to set those crushing picks or at least free up some space with them. Having both Herndon and Dalton on the floor at the same time just is too much of liability against any team that actually eats steaks and burgers :rofl:

 

[johnywyo]

I disdain our defensive intensity thus far. We feed off that, and if we believe that our offensive woes are the issue then expect us to compete at a bottom of the league performer. Shyatt and his staff blew it by not signing any replacements for Nancejr, DC, and Washington. Dalton and Herndon lack the size, strength and athleticism to compete on the blocks in the MWC. Early indicators are that this team will live and die by FG %. My suspicion is that Shyatt is trying to find an identity for this club, its early and I hope we find one.

 

[stymeman]

instead of complaining about it week in and week out, what do your suggest they do better, what are the options, how would YOU fix it, instead of complaining about it, this i've always been curious about, it's always easy to be an armchair coach, everybody does it, helps on how to fix that's the true challenge and i'm sure anyone would be willing to listen!!

 

[fromolwyoming]

instead of complaining about it week in and week out, what do your suggest they do better, what are the options, how would YOU fix it, instead of complaining about it, this i've always been curious about, it's always easy to be an armchair coach, everybody does it, helps on how to fix that's the true challenge and i'm sure anyone would be willing to listen!!

I suggest cut down on the threes and do more slashing. And if the slash fails, kick out to the open shooter.

 

[LanderPoke]

instead of complaining about it week in and week out, what do your suggest they do better, what are the options, how would YOU fix it, instead of complaining about it, this i've always been curious about, it's always easy to be an armchair coach, everybody does it, helps on how to fix that's the true challenge and i'm sure anyone would be willing to listen!!

I suggest cut down on the threes and do more slashing. And if the slash fails, kick out to the open shooter.

+1

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

instead of complaining about it week in and week out, what do your suggest they do better, what are the options, how would YOU fix it, instead of complaining about it, this i've always been curious about, it's always easy to be an armchair coach, everybody does it, helps on how to fix that's the true challenge and i'm sure anyone would be willing to listen!!

I suggest cut down on the threes and do more slashing. And if the slash fails, kick out to the open shooter.

+1

Josh Adams, Justin James, and Morris Marshall all seemingly can get to the basket at will. McManimal and the Swedish Assassin both showed last night that they can pump fake a defending into the air and then drove the lane and got to the free throw line. I am ok with the 3s but would certainly like to see some driving and higher percentage shots

 

[seattlecowboy]

instead of complaining about it week in and week out, what do your suggest they do better, what are the options, how would YOU fix it, instead of complaining about it, this i've always been curious about, it's always easy to be an armchair coach, everybody does it, helps on how to fix that's the true challenge and i'm sure anyone would be willing to listen!!

I suggest cut down on the threes and do more slashing. And if the slash fails, kick out to the open shooter.

+1

Josh Adams, Justin James, and Morris Marshall all seemingly can get to the basket at will. McManimal and the Swedish Assassin both showed last night that they can pump fake a defending into the air and then drove the lane and got to the free throw line. I am ok with the 3s but would certainly like to see some driving and higher percentage shots

Yep and Trey can get to the basket as well.

Marshall must be in the doghouse or something cause I see no reason he isn't on the floor for at least 20 minutes a game and if it is because of his defense then he needs to get that figured out so he can be on the floor but honestly the way this team has played defense so far I don't see how Marshall would be any worse than anyone else.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

instead of complaining about it week in and week out, what do your suggest they do better, what are the options, how would YOU fix it, instead of complaining about it, this i've always been curious about, it's always easy to be an armchair coach, everybody does it, helps on how to fix that's the true challenge and i'm sure anyone would be willing to listen!!

I suggest cut down on the threes and do more slashing. And if the slash fails, kick out to the open shooter.

+1

Josh Adams, Justin James, and Morris Marshall all seemingly can get to the basket at will. McManimal and the Swedish Assassin both showed last night that they can pump fake a defending into the air and then drove the lane and got to the free throw line. I am ok with the 3s but would certainly like to see some driving and higher percentage shots

Yep and Trey can get to the basket as well.

Marshall must be in the doghouse or something cause I see no reason he isn't on the floor for at least 20 minutes a game and if it is because of his defense then he needs to get that figured out so he can be on the floor but honestly the way this team has played defense so far I don't see how Marshall would be any worse than anyone else.

I agree. He can't be that out of place that he is a liability defensively. He looks explosive with ball. He needs to be on the floor

 

[seattlecowboy]

instead of complaining about it week in and week out, what do your suggest they do better, what are the options, how would YOU fix it, instead of complaining about it, this i've always been curious about, it's always easy to be an armchair coach, everybody does it, helps on how to fix that's the true challenge and i'm sure anyone would be willing to listen!!

I suggest cut down on the threes and do more slashing. And if the slash fails, kick out to the open shooter.

+1

Josh Adams, Justin James, and Morris Marshall all seemingly can get to the basket at will. McManimal and the Swedish Assassin both showed last night that they can pump fake a defending into the air and then drove the lane and got to the free throw line. I am ok with the 3s but would certainly like to see some driving and higher percentage shots

Yep and Trey can get to the basket as well.

Marshall must be in the doghouse or something cause I see no reason he isn't on the floor for at least 20 minutes a game and if it is because of his defense then he needs to get that figured out so he can be on the floor but honestly the way this team has played defense so far I don't see how Marshall would be any worse than anyone else.

I agree. He can't be that out of place that he is a liability defensively. He looks explosive with ball. He needs to be on the floor

I also think Shyatt actually needs to play less guys. I feel like a few guys need to be out there a few more minutes a game and a couple of guys less but just my opinion on it. We all already agree Marshall should be out there more as far as who shouldn't as much I won't say any names but just think we actually have too many guys playing and not enough contribution from some that are getting a decent amount of minutes. Maybe others disagree with me on that and that is fine but that is my personal opinion.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

instead of complaining about it week in and week out, what do your suggest they do better, what are the options, how would YOU fix it, instead of complaining about it, this i've always been curious about, it's always easy to be an armchair coach, everybody does it, helps on how to fix that's the true challenge and i'm sure anyone would be willing to listen!!

I suggest cut down on the threes and do more slashing. And if the slash fails, kick out to the open shooter.

+1

Josh Adams, Justin James, and Morris Marshall all seemingly can get to the basket at will. McManimal and the Swedish Assassin both showed last night that they can pump fake a defending into the air and then drove the lane and got to the free throw line. I am ok with the 3s but would certainly like to see some driving and higher percentage shots

Yep and Trey can get to the basket as well.

Marshall must be in the doghouse or something cause I see no reason he isn't on the floor for at least 20 minutes a game and if it is because of his defense then he needs to get that figured out so he can be on the floor but honestly the way this team has played defense so far I don't see how Marshall would be any worse than anyone else.

I agree. He can't be that out of place that he is a liability defensively. He looks explosive with ball. He needs to be on the floor

I also think Shyatt actually needs to play less guys. I feel like a few guys need to be out there a few more minutes a game and a couple of guys less but just my opinion on it. We all already agree Marshall should be out there more as far as who shouldn't as much I won't say any names but just think we actually have too many guys playing and not enough contribution from some that are getting a decent amount of minutes. Maybe others disagree with me on that and that is fine but that is my personal opinion.

I don't disagree. I like the contribution we've gotten from most everyone but I think we'd see guys like Barnes, JJ, Marshall (if he ever gets minutes) and Aka Gorski start to develop some consistency and solidified roles if they were on the floor more.

 

[JimmyDimes]

I disdain our defensive intensity thus far. We feed off that, and if we believe that our offensive woes are the issue then expect us to compete at a bottom of the league performer. Shyatt and his staff blew it by not signing any replacements for Nancejr, DC, and Washington. Dalton and Hearns lack the size, strength and athleticism to compete on the blocks in the MWC. Early indicators are that this team will live and die by FG %. My suspicion is that Shyatt is trying to find an identity for this club, its early and I hope we find one.

How much did Cooke bring to the court when he was a sophmore? And who in the hell is Hearns?

 

[johnywyo]

I disdain our defensive intensity thus far. We feed off that, and if we believe that our offensive woes are the issue then expect us to compete at a bottom of the league performer. Shyatt and his staff blew it by not signing any replacements for Nancejr, DC, and Washington. Dalton and Herndon lack the size, strength and athleticism to compete on the blocks in the MWC. Early indicators are that this team will live and die by FG %. My suspicion is that Shyatt is trying to find an identity for this club, its early and I hope we find one.

How much did Cooke bring to the court when he was a sophmore? And who in the hell is Hearns?

Ah, a lot more than Herndon, dude.....and Dalton. take a pill.