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My hope and the most likely case is that the coaching staff sees something in Dalton that none of us can see by just looking at the stats on paper. So hopefully he ends up being as good as the staff thinks he can be.

I'm sure based on stats and watching video's we all would like to get certain guys but for whatever reason the staff either wasn't able to get them for some reason or decided Dalton was a better fit than some of the others.

I can get frustrated with recruiting as much as any of you can but I just have to realize the staff knows a lot of things we don't and hopefully they keep the program going on an upward trajectory.
 
joshvanklomp said:
NowherePoke said:
One of the primary aspects that sunk the Heath Schroyer regime, besides him being an a-hole, was roster composition (too many players with the same skill set in the same class, while other needs were completely ignored). Shyatt is a million times better at that, but the team is really in a hole in the front court for next year and I would have liked to see him do something about that this spring.
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Who in this class has Dalton's skillset as a stretch-4?

We added a frontcourt player. The problem isn't that we ignored the need, the problem is that we added a guy at the position that you don't like.
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Obviously not in this class, but Herndon is a nice fit as a stretch-4 in the MWC. He hasn't quite showed off the stroke in game action, but he has a nice perimeter stroke while still being able to get to the rim off the bounce. Defensively he can protect the rim from the weakside. He lacks bulk/strength, but nobody's perfect.

It's not necessarily what we added in Dalton that bothers me, but what we didn't add in this class. I am concerned that we didn't address our interior defensive/rebounding needs. Just looking at the roster, I think Herndon fits the stretch 4 profile but we don't have anyone beside him to handle opposing frontcourts with more bulk and post presence. A couple of years from now I think Barnes and/or Naughton could fill that role but they don't appear to be ready yet. I was hoping we would fill that role for the following year with a 5th year senior, which I think Shyatt wanted to as well. It's just difficult to land 5th year transfer big men. In the absence of filling an immediate need I thought the staff might look at just bringing in the best talent possible either via a traditional transfer (someone like Dustin Thomas, that we were looking at) or via saving the scholarship for the 2016 class in which we are involved in a number of high level prospects.

I was surprised that we decided to bring in a JC big, because we never seemed to get involved or offer any other JC bigs in this class with the exception of Boucher (who has been chronicled on here before).

Obviously Dalton is a little unique as a JC big because he has 4 to play 3, so he can take a redshirt to develop and then have three years to play. It's almost like signing a raw HS prospect (and he isn't much older than you average HS senior either).
 
WYCowboy said:
Because those you listed don't have the style, attitude, or team chemistry that our coaching staff are looking for? Only the coaching staff can answer that question.
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Yeah, I'll stick with the decisions of this staff, also. They just won an MWC tourney championship with players who were not highly recruited. Coach Shy is looking for fits within his system. He has shown in both of his stints in Laramie that he can put together (highly) competitive teams with players who buy into his system and know their roles. This staff obviously values (highly) the opinions/feedback from the squad when evaluating targets who visit campus. Is that point being missed? If a couple of these kids on the current roster grow and turn into stars (like Nance did, and like where Adams is headed), then great. No matter the makeup of the squad, we can count on Shyatt to produce teams who play hard and smart on defense and unselfishly on the offensive end.

Looking forward to seeing where this squad is at by January/February.
 
This is how I feel about our post game this year.

There are people who may be concerned about the lack of low-post offense after Nance's graduation. However, there was also concern during the season that we didn't use Nance on the block enough. I truly believe going away from the low post offense is a schematic choice. I don't think Shyatt uses bigs in a traditional way on offense. They are there to run pick/rolls, space the floor and cut to the basket. I think Dalton should be fine in all of those areas. The one big who doesn't fit it as well is Barnes, but he should be able to carve out a defensive role like Cooke.

As for having enough "bulk" inside, we really didn't have much last year, either. Our post rotation had weights of 235, 220 and 205. The two "heavier" bigs are gone, but we can replace 235 and 220 with 240 (Barnes), 220 (Naughton) and/or a couple of 200s (Dalton, Moemeka). Strength will come as they get older. Shyatt's teams seem to be less about strength and more about quickness and IQ.
 
I think we all recognize that we take a hit with the loss of LN and Cooke - their senior leadership will be hard to replace. And when was the last time we had a player who had the same impact as Larry? Nonetheless, we have more bigs than we've had in quite awhile. We can roll one big out after another, which is something we've not been able to do in years. Granted, they lack experience and maturity. And suffice to say none of them are named Larry. Instead they have their own names, and their own games - their growth under fire remains to be seen.

My point (and I have no pretentions of knowing hoops - my high point was as the designated enforcer in a church league) is that with improved perimeter play, a lot of pressure is taken off the bigs. How can we not be better in the backcourt? We'll be bigger, stronger and faster at least 3 if not 4 of the 5 positions. And it seems as tho the newbies can shoot. These guys will take their lumps compliments of the youth movement, but LS coaches teams as well as he does individuals. My prediction is the top half of the conference, and consistently tough ball by the end of the season.
 
joshvanklomp said:
This is how I feel about our post game this year.

There are people who may be concerned about the lack of low-post offense after Nance's graduation. However, there was also concern during the season that we didn't use Nance on the block enough. I truly believe going away from the low post offense is a schematic choice. I don't think Shyatt uses bigs in a traditional way on offense. They are there to run pick/rolls, space the floor and cut to the basket. I think Dalton should be fine in all of those areas. The one big who doesn't fit it as well is Barnes, but he should be able to carve out a defensive role like Cooke.

As for having enough "bulk" inside, we really didn't have much last year, either. Our post rotation had weights of 235, 220 and 205. The two "heavier" bigs are gone, but we can replace 235 and 220 with 240 (Barnes), 220 (Naughton) and/or a couple of 200s (Dalton, Moemeka). Strength will come as they get older. Shyatt's teams seem to be less about strength and more about quickness and IQ.
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I'm not sure how much of the posts you've actually read but the biggest concern is low post DEFENSE and DEFENSIVE rebounding. I don't think anyone has mentioned post offense as their primary concern. It is a concern, but the more pressing concern is what are we going to do down low on defense and on the glass. More specifically, what's going to happen when teams like New Mexico or UNLV come down and want to pound it to their plethora of big man options and crash the boards? Barnes has the size but is very raw, I can see him getting into a lot of foul trouble. After that, then what? Herndon? A couple of raw freshman projects? It has been the big question mark about next year since the season ended and this signing doesn't really address that. If anyone watched the NBA playoffs I am having images of what Cleveland's bigs did to Atlanta in the East finals. I don't believe we should be just "sacrificing" years in the name of development, especially when you are coming off of our best season in 12 years and still have an all-time great in the program in his senior year. You have to strike while the iron is hot.

I don't think we will have a terrible year, Shyatt has proven he will field a competitive team, but we could be set up better to endure the growing pains that are coming.
 
Blame Schroyer. He's the guy that left Shy the task of replacing ten players in less than a year. Shy has tried to balance the classes but attrition and the mess Shroyer left is the reason we have ten underclassmen on this years squad.

No one is sacrificing a year for development. We've got ten players that are underclassmen and three upperclassmen. That's reality.

Recruiting a bunch of j.c.'s wouldn't help.

Trust the coaches. They know what they're doing and have proven to be the most successful at doing it in Laramie since Brandy went to SDSU.
 
I think people are selling Barnes a little short. In his very limited PT last season and from what I have heard, he plays good defense and rebounds well - he can jump, and he will not get pushed around with his size. His offense is what has been questioned - maybe all he needs is some confidence to get that going. Coach Shyatt must have felt he wasn't ready last season.
 
WYCowboy said:
I think people are selling Barnes a little short. In his very limited PT last season and from what I have heard, he plays good defense and rebounds well - he can jump, and he will not get pushed around with his size. His offense is what has been questioned - maybe all he needs is some confidence to get that going. Coach Shyatt must have felt he wasn't ready last season.
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I agree with this but he could get two fouls in two possessions pretty easy
 
joshvanklomp said:
This is how I feel about our post game this year.

There are people who may be concerned about the lack of low-post offense after Nance's graduation. However, there was also concern during the season that we didn't use Nance on the block enough. I truly believe going away from the low post offense is a schematic choice. I don't think Shyatt uses bigs in a traditional way on offense. They are there to run pick/rolls, space the floor and cut to the basket. I think Dalton should be fine in all of those areas. The one big who doesn't fit it as well is Barnes, but he should be able to carve out a defensive role like Cooke.

As for having enough "bulk" inside, we really didn't have much last year, either. Our post rotation had weights of 235, 220 and 205. The two "heavier" bigs are gone, but we can replace 235 and 220 with 240 (Barnes), 220 (Naughton) and/or a couple of 200s (Dalton, Moemeka). Strength will come as they get older. Shyatt's teams seem to be less about strength and more about quickness and IQ.
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A couple of thoughts:

1. As calpoke noted, I would say the greater concern is defensively. As others have noted, I think we will have more versatility and ways to challenge the defense from our perimeters players that we have had in a while. That will offset some of the decline in productivity from Nance to anyone else (which is to be expected). However, defensively and on the glass (which is mostly a defensive metric for us) I think we are really limited going into next year.

2. In terms of bulk, I guess it depends on who plays, but my assumption is that Barnes is not ready. If Barnes does make a huge leap in the offseason than obviously that takes away some of the concern and I think two years from now our starting frontcourt will be a 6'10" 250 lb Barnes and a 6'10" 215 Alan Herndon and they will be formidable. I just don't think Barnes is ready. You mentioned earlier in the thread that you could see Dalton starting. I don't see it that way obviously, but if he starts alongside Herndon than our bigs will be 180-190 lbs and 205-210 lbs. That's incredibly thin.

3. I always try to think about how we matchup against the MWC. There are some other very successful frontcourt players in the MWC that are built like Alan Herndon. Guys like Christian Wood (last year), James Webb III, Malik Pope/Shepherd/Polee although JJ O'Brien defended alot of opposing big men, etc. However, each of those guys have (or had in Wood's case) much larger post players accompanying them in the frontcourt. Wood had Okonoboh, Webb had Duncan (he may have hung out on the perimeter on offense, but on defense he defended the post), SDSU had Spencer/Chol, etc. That's the piece that I feel we are missing. I am not saying Herndon is exactly equivalent to the guys mentioned but I think he will grow into that type of role. I am concerned about asking him to defend bruisers in the paint like Chol, Okonoboh, Williams, Omogbo, even Collette. I would like to have a stronger post player alongside Herndon to handle those assignments.
 
WYCowboy said:
I think people are selling Barnes a little short. In his very limited PT last season and from what I have heard, he plays good defense and rebounds well - he can jump, and he will not get pushed around with his size. His offense is what has been questioned - maybe all he needs is some confidence to get that going. Coach Shyatt must have felt he wasn't ready last season.
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I think he is just raw. He was late to the game and frankly didn't play in a very good HS program. Physically he sure looks the part. I think he just needs time, which is not unusual for a big man.

For next year though, I think it is a lot to ask to expect him to step in and play a major role. I went back and tried to find big men we have had that had similar freshman seasons who grew into larger roles as sophomores. I didn't find many with as little minutes/production as Barnes had but there were some that could be semi-equivalents:


Barnes last year: 4.5 mpg/1.4ppg/1.1rpg

1. Waddell - Went from 11.7 mpg/4.0ppg/1.7rpg as a true freshman in 6 games before the injury to 19.5 mpg/5.1ppg/3.9rpg in his RS Fr. season. Adam played a lot more right from the beginning than Barnes did though so it's tough to compare.

2. Ike Okoye - Went from 7.3mpg/2.7ppg/1.6rpg as a Fr. to 14.6mpg/3.1ppg/3.8rpg as a So.

3. Travis Nelson - Went from 9.7mpg/1.7ppg/1.0rpg to 16.0mpg/7.3ppg/2.6rpg as a So.

4. Alex Dunn - Went from 3.0 mpg/0.8ppg/1.2rpg to 10.0mpg/3.7ppg/2.7rpg as a So.


Those are the closest comparisons (there are also some that didn't work out like Boswell, Marshall, etc., but trying to think more in terms of those that did develop to a point). All of those guys saw development and improvement, but the improvement was incremental and modest and that's what I expect from Barnes this year. Maybe something like 15 mpg/4ppg/4rpg in a bench rotation role depending on matchups.
 
NowherePoke said:
I think he is just raw. He was late to the game and frankly didn't play in a very good HS program. Physically he sure looks the part. I think he just needs time, which is not unusual for a big man.

For next year though, I think it is a lot to ask to expect him to step in and play a major role. I went back and tried to find big men we have had that had similar freshman seasons who grew into larger roles as sophomores. I didn't find many with as little minutes/production as Barnes had but there were some that could be semi-equivalents:


Barnes last year: 4.5 mpg/1.4ppg/1.1rpg

1. Waddell - Went from 11.7 mpg/4.0ppg/1.7rpg as a true freshman in 6 games before the injury to 19.5 mpg/5.1ppg/3.9rpg in his RS Fr. season. Adam played a lot more right from the beginning than Barnes did though so it's tough to compare.

2. Ike Okoye - Went from 7.3mpg/2.7ppg/1.6rpg as a Fr. to 14.6mpg/3.1ppg/3.8rpg as a So.

3. Travis Nelson - Went from 9.7mpg/1.7ppg/1.0rpg to 16.0mpg/7.3ppg/2.6rpg as a So.

4. Alex Dunn - Went from 3.0 mpg/0.8ppg/1.2rpg to 10.0mpg/3.7ppg/2.7rpg as a So.


Those are the closest comparisons (there are also some that didn't work out like Boswell, Marshall, etc., but trying to think more in terms of those that did develop to a point). All of those guys saw development and improvement, but the improvement was incremental and modest and that's what I expect from Barnes this year. Maybe something like 15 mpg/4ppg/4rpg in a bench rotation role depending on matchups.
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I think this is a nice post with some good analyses from our past. I agree on what your thinking about Barnes. From my eye/gut test watching many games last year he just looked like a kid that wasn't gonna really start to contribute in a bigger way until his junior year.

One thing that I will say to counter about the development of that list. Those players played under coaching staffs that didn't develop talent AT ALL! That was a BIG problem with Mcclain for me. I remember Alex Dunn and saying to my friends "Hey this kid is gonna be great next year. He just needs that time to develop more of his game." we agreed. Well unfortunately he was in Mcclain's system were our talent development was pretty much seemingly all on the players. His x's and o's in game were non existent, so there was no system in games during the season to get more out of our guys. Alex Dunn ended up regressing his senior year and he sure wasn't alone on a long list of players during that era that kind of stayed stagnant, hell I might argue that Jay Straight didn't ever really develop. Jay Straight looked like he was gonna be an all timer. Now I don't want to talk about the infinite black hole talent suck that is the Schroyer era but it pretty much went like this........ :brick: :brick: :brick: :doh: :doh: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :thefan: :thefan: :thefan:

So my point is. Maybe just maybe we can get a little more a little sooner out of players like Barnes. CAUSE WE GOT A COACH :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
 
Fair points. While there are defensive concerns, we also have a defensive guru as head coach. I'd like to think he knows what he's doing.
 
WYCowboy said:
I think people are selling Barnes a little short. In his very limited PT last season and from what I have heard, he plays good defense and rebounds well - he can jump, and he will not get pushed around with his size. His offense is what has been questioned - maybe all he needs is some confidence to get that going. Coach Shyatt must have felt he wasn't ready last season.
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That's why some of us were hoping Barnes would redshirt last season. Unfortunately, he didn't end up getting enough quality minutes to warrant burning the redshirt. There are current Cowboys and coaches who think he'll be a quality piece to this program as he matures due to his athleticism and desire to want to get better. The offense will come through hard work and a growing comfort level on the court. I've seen many Pokes fours/fives over the years who looked like they had some stage-fright offensively with the lights turned on early in their careers. Some of them ended up being stars in the WAC/MWC. A lot of mid-majors saw Jonathan's potential on the AAU circuit. That's why he received the number of offers he did.

With the inexperience in the post this year, though, I'm personally hoping (praying) that the guards and Threes can create enough through penetration to open up a lot of easy looks and buckets for the Bigs. Start building confidence for these guys through easy looks. We know Josh has the ability to do that, and I think Jeremy can become adept with the penetrate and dish, also. Lieberman has added a little muscle and has excellent ball handling skills. He'll be a heady player for the Pokes in the years to come. Most of all, I'm hoping that JJ can come in and get major minutes on the perimeter early due to his overall game. He's another kid who could take pressure off the young Bigs.
 
POKE FAN said:
Most of all, I'm hoping that JJ can come in and get major minutes on the perimeter early due to his overall game. He's another kid who could take pressure off the young Bigs.
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Seems crazy to say about a true freshman, but I think James is a lock to start. He's the most sure I feel about a starter after Adams and Herndon. The other two spots could go a number of directions.
 
The rotation is guard heavy. Its going to be a free for all at the guard spot with Conway, Washington, Liebermann, Gorski, and Marshall fighting for minutes next to Adams.

We have four guys that will fight for SF minutes with Mcmanamen, James, Marshall, and Gorski.

In the post we've got Herndon, Barnes, Naughton, Moemka, and Dalton. It looks like Dalton and Moemeka need a redshirt to put on weight.

Adams, Herndon, and Mcmanamen will start.

I'm betting Conway and James will earn their time on the court.

I'm not worried about Barnes. He will be a defensive force similar to John Sommers if he wants to be and Sommers shut down Reggie Miller.

I'm confident that Naughton is going to get an opportunity with his frame and his ability to get rebounds.

I'm positive Trey Washington is going to get time. He's been in the program for two years. He's ready and he'll be more like a veteran than most of the guys.

That leaves a battle for the last guard spot in the two deep. It leaves us a three man rotation in the post if the skinny guys can't defend.

I wouldn't be surprised if James plays stretch four this year. It lets you rotate Mcmanamen and Marshall at SF and allows another veteran to play at the other guard spot.

Here's my way to early two-deep prediction:

Point: Liebermann, Conway
2: Adams, Washington
SF: Mcmanamen, Marshall
PF: James, Naughton
C: Herndon, Barnes

I don't think we'll play a ten man rotation. I would expect an eight man rotation.

Liebermann is the wild card. Shy likes a calming influence at the point.

I think you might see Gorski, Moemeka, and Dalton redshirt.

We'll see who steps up and who can play defense. That's what determines who gets on the floor.
 
Cowboy Junky said:
The rotation is guard heavy. Its going to be a free for all at the guard spot with Conway, Washington, Liebermann, Gorski, and Marshall fighting for minutes next to Adams.

We have four guys that will fight for SF minutes with Mcmanamen, James, Marshall, and Gorski.

In the post we've got Herndon, Barnes, Naughton, Moemka, and Dalton. It looks like Dalton and Moemeka need a redshirt to put on weight.

Adams, Herndon, and Mcmanamen will start.

I'm betting Conway and James will earn their time on the court.

I'm not worried about Barnes. He will be a defensive force similar to John Sommers if he wants to be and Sommers shut down Reggie Miller.

I'm confident that Naughton is going to get an opportunity with his frame and his ability to get rebounds.

I'm positive Trey Washington is going to get time. He's been in the program for two years. He's ready and he'll be more like a veteran than most of the guys.

That leaves a battle for the last guard spot in the two deep. It leaves us a three man rotation in the post if the skinny guys can't defend.

I wouldn't be surprised if James plays stretch four this year. It lets you rotate Mcmanamen and Marshall at SF and allows another veteran to play at the other guard spot.

Here's my way to early two-deep prediction:

Point: Liebermann, Conway
2: Adams, Washington
SF: Mcmanamen, Marshall
PF: James, Naughton
C: Herndon, Barnes

I don't think we'll play a ten man rotation. I would expect an eight man rotation.

Liebermann is the wild card. Shy likes a calming influence at the point.

I think you might see Gorski, Moemeka, and Dalton redshirt.

We'll see who steps up and who can play defense. That's what determines who gets on the floor.
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Nice post CJ.

I can't get my head around James playing the 4 though. It feels like that would be tough on him as a Freshman to try to defend bigger players all the time. I am probably guilty of inflating his potential in my mind, but from the Oldsmar games I watched and from the accolades he earned while playing with/against a ton of high level prospects, I think he is the best wing prospect we have had since pre-injury Afam. I would hate to see him wear down or become frustrated because he is playing out of position. He is a pure wing. Good shooter, smooth off the dribble, etc.
 
Agreed about James being a pure wing. He started at point his junior year and lists himself as a two guard. He seems to be most effective when outside or moving towards the basket.

I know the coaches really want a stretch four. That's where I think he fits in the short term. I agree with you that he would probably wear down defensively in the post if he plays a lot of man. I just don't see us playing much man next year with our inexperience and thin physiques in the post. I'm expecting a lot of 2-3 zone next year, where he wouldn't have to bang as much.

I don't know if James at the four is the answer or if the 2-3 is the answer but I know we'll play a lot of zone. That's why I think it will work: when he pulls a big to the perimeter and can cover a wing in the 2-3. Then he'll be effective on both ends of the floor.

I know SF or 2 guard is James future. I just think he's going to get opportunities at the four THIS season due to the youth/inexperience/lack of bodies in the post. I certainly don't want or expect him to play pf permanently.

I still want/expect him to play SF. He'll get minutes there for sure. I just think our best lineup will have him AND Mcmanamen on the floor at the same time and I don't expect Jason to play much two guard. JJ might play the two, but we have an abundance of guards on the roster. If that means four out and one in, then we'll probably do that.

I'm not concerned about us defensively. Any team Shy coaches is one of the best in the country on defense. I'm worried about the offense. We lost Cookes 10 points a game in the post. We lost Nances 15 a game in the post. We don't have a proven paint offensive option. Adams will get his. McManamen is the most clutch shooter we have. Where else does the offense come from? I'm betting its going to come from the perimeter. That's the other reason I think JJ will get minutes at PF in a four out/one in offense.
 
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