MW Media Days

[ragtimejoe1]

I'll add 1 more, the "royalty" money could be used anywhere in education. It doesn't cover education or higher ed 100% thus taxpayers make up the rest. If not used on athletics, the tax burden would be lessened for taxpayers.

You're reaching.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

LMFAO at this guy that govt money doesn't come from taxes. The govt only gives what it takes which is also fact.

You are free to adopt any set of ‘facts’ you choose to believe. But I have not met an accountant who classifies land and mineral production rentals, royalties and sale proceeds and income generated on those funds from investment as ‘taxes.’

 

[ragtimejoe1]

You are free to adopt any set of ‘facts’ you choose to believe. But I have not met an accountant who classifies land and mineral production rentals, royalties and sale proceeds and income generated on those funds from investment as ‘taxes.’

My guess is you looked up the data and realized I was right. Now you're reaching to try to save face. You're implying 100% of the state support component of the ad budget is from mineral royalties. We've already established that you have no idea EXACTLY how much of UW's budget comes from royalties much less the ad budget specifically.

Since you're trying to play budgetary shell games to save face, how about this: eliminating state and student contributions to the ad and using that money for tuition support would reduce tuition by ballpark of 40% for the current student population.

Obviously that's not 100% accurate because your student population would lose scholarship athletes and the ad allegedly makes a little money that goes back into the UW system but the point is accurate. You could use that money elsewhere in the UW system and reduce the student cost or tax burden. If you and the rest of the doom and gloom squad are correct that UW will never be able to compete with the upper end of the MWC, then the state and student contributions might be a bad investment.

Where I'm potentially wrong is the athletic impact on things like UW licensing/branding sales. If state and student support dried up, would the ad fold or be reduced? If those happened would there be a reduction in licensing revenue due to reduced clothing or other sales? If so, how big of impact?

At the end of the day, I'm not in the doom and gloom club. Sometimes there are self fulfilling prophecies which can also lead to a culture of acceptance of mediocrity because that is believed to be the maximum level of success, as CSA pointed out.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

My guess is you looked up the data and realized I was right. Now you're reaching to try to save face. You're implying 100% of the state support component of the ad budget is from mineral royalties. We've already established that you have no idea EXACTLY how much of UW's budget comes from royalties much less the ad budget specifically.

Wrong and wrong again. I already knew the student fee amount and already knew the ‘taxpayer’ burden is a fraction of the state revenue to make your claim untrue.

I am unaware of an available source that shows exactly the percentage of dollars strictly related to the Morrill Act that are distributed to the University. Disregarding these very significant dollars which skews University allocations even more heavily against ‘taxpayer’ collected funds, we know from easily accessed public information that yearly over 60% of state revenues comes from mineral extraction and investments on those extraction revenues.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Wrong and wrong again. I already knew the student fee amount and already knew the ‘taxpayer’ burden is a fraction of the state revenue to make your claim untrue.

I am unaware of an available source that shows exactly the percentage of dollars strictly related to the Morrill Act that are distributed to the University. Disregarding these very significant dollars which skews University allocations even more heavily against ‘taxpayer’ collected funds, we know from easily accessed public information that yearly over 60% of state revenues comes from mineral extraction and investments on those extraction revenues.

You conveniently ignore the undeniable fact that reallocating state and student funding away from athletics to tuition reduction would reduce the financial burden of students. Likewise, redirecting that money to reduce the 40% owed by WYO taxpayers would reduce the tax burden. You're trying to play politician slight of hand and it won't work. I know you hate being wrong again but you are. Wyo athletics on a per enrolled student basis is subsidized at a far greater rate than other mwc programs.

 

[Wyokie]

You know it's sad when an argument between OrediggerrPoke and Ragtimejoe1 is more entertaining than the first (and probably ONLY) Presidential Debate for the 2024 Election.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

Just an FYI. Of the $10 billion of revenue for FY 2023-24, only about 16% is from individual taxes (i.e. Sales tax and property tax levy). Another 19% is from federal sources which are from taxes and other sources. So, at most, 35% of the money from the state is directly from the taxpayers.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Just an FYI. Of the $10 billion of revenue for FY 2023-24, only about 16% is from individual taxes (i.e. Sales tax and property tax levy). Another 19% is from federal sources which are from taxes and other sources. So, at most, 35% of the money from the state is directly from the taxpayers.

Until the 35% is 0 it is still subsidized by taxpayer money.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

Until the 35% is 0 it is still subsidized by taxpayer money.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't subsidized by taxpayers. Every public school AD in the NCAA is subsidized with tax dollars.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't subsidized by taxpayers. Every public school AD in the NCAA is subsidized with tax dollars.

Yes and on a per enrolled student basis, WYO AD is subsidized at the highest amount in the MWC by a pretty good margin.
For some odd reason some posters take exception to that fact.

 

[TheRealUW]

There is an important piece of information missing from this discussion - all of the other schools in the MWC (outside of Air Force) have an enrollment 2-3x that of Wyoming.

We could bring our per student state funding of the athletic department down in line with the rest of the MWC, but that would mean a budget of 1/3 to 1/2 of the rest of the conference. For anyone who would like to drop to FCS or D2, that would be a good way to do it.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

There is an important piece of information missing from this discussion - all of the other schools in the MWC (outside of Air Force) have an enrollment 2-3x that of Wyoming.

We could bring our per student state funding of the athletic department down in line with the rest of the MWC, but that would mean a budget of 1/3 to 1/2 of the rest of the conference. For anyone who would like to drop to FCS or D2, that would be a good way to do it.

Edit: I stand corrected. The '23 numbers indicate we're bottom sans unm and sjsu (numbers weren't on there).

Maybe the doomsday crowd is right. Everyone in MWC seems to increase budgets at much faster rate.

Interesting exercise. We might be the first dogs out of this race. I don't advocate more taxes or student fees to keep pace and the athletic department doesn't seem to have any ideas or innovation. The future does indeed look bleak for UW athletics.

 

[307bball]

....If you and the rest of the doom and gloom squad are correct that UW will never be able to compete with the upper end of the MWC, then the state and student contributions might be a bad investment.

....At the end of the day, I'm not in the doom and gloom club. Sometimes there are self fulfilling prophecies which can also lead to a culture of acceptance of mediocrity because that is believed to be the maximum level of success, as CSA pointed out.

I definitely don't want to resurrect the financial/tax argument .... I just take issue with how you are framing the "doom and gloom" club.

For the last 30 years, the University of Wyoming has not just struggled to rise above mediocrity...the majority of the struggle has been just getting to mediocrity! The question I'm grappling with is: Why? As I understand your position, you think that a culture of mediocrity has overtaken the University from the fans to the administration. You point to a report (I assume this is the Sternberg report?) done by CSA that uses the term "acceptance of mediocrity" that you found very compelling... is that about right?

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I definitely don't want to resurrect the financial/tax argument .... I just take issue with how you are framing the "doom and gloom" club.

For the last 30 years, the University of Wyoming has not just struggled to rise above mediocrity...the majority of the struggle has been just getting to mediocrity! The question I'm grappling with is: Why? As I understand your position, you think that a culture of mediocrity has overtaken the University from the fans to the administration. You point to a report (I assume this is the Sternberg report?) done by CSA that uses the term "acceptance of mediocrity" that you found very compelling... is that about right?

For 20 of those years, the administration has been consistent. Accepting of mediocrity is seeking excuses for affirmation that UW can't compete. Accepting of mediocrity is pointing to bsu and saying we can't be that so let's be happy with what we have.

What about usu? What about sjsu (which is what 1/2 to 3/4 of our budget yet still managed a football title. What about unm? No football but lots of champions in several sports. Even csu manages championships in several sports.

Accepting mediocrity is looking at that and saying that's unattainable at WYO because we have too many limitations. Maybe just maybe those limitations are self full filled. Maybe just maybe the Sternberg report was on to something.

If we're going to get sjsu-like results, then get off the pot and quit fleeceing students and taxpayers. Cut the ad to sjsu-funding levels (about 10 million reduction)

 

[307bball]

For 20 of those years, the administration has been consistent. Accepting of mediocrity is seeking excuses for affirmation that UW can't compete. Accepting of mediocrity is pointing to bsu and saying we can't be that so let's be happy with what we have.

What about usu? What about sjsu (which is what 1/2 to 3/4 of our budget yet still managed a football title. What about unm? No football but lots of champions in several sports. Even csu manages championships in several sports.

Accepting mediocrity is looking at that and saying that's unattainable at WYO because we have too many limitations. Maybe just maybe those limitations are self full filled. Maybe just maybe the Sternberg report was on to something.

If we're going to get sjsu-like results, then get off the pot and quit fleeceing students and taxpayers. Cut the ad to sjsu-funding levels (about 10 million reduction)

Thanks for the explanation. I don't have intimate knowledge of the report...If it just says that success will come after UW stops "accepting mediocrity", then I think it's far too simplistic and probably not accurate. I'm sure that there is more to the report though. There is a utility to "demanding excellence" that we all agree exists....but that will have a ceiling. You can insult the people describing that ceiling all you want (indicating them as members of the doom and gloom club) but it won't remove it.

The idea that UW athletic's problems are primarily bounded and within the control of the leadership is just far too simplistic....It's so obvious that the landscape of college athletics have tilted extremely away from UW and UW-like institutions. I do not discount Utah State's success since they have joined the MWC...They are barely ahead of us in terms of conference wins per year sin 2016 and they squeaked out a title...It would literally have taken a win over SDSU in the title game in 2016 and one more conference win during Bohl's last 8 years to have had the exact same conference football success in that span. I do not say the same about SJSU. I would not trade the conference wins for the Covid title that they won...but reasonable people could disagree I suppose. In any case, rearrange the deck chairs in the non-revenue sports and give us a title here and there but have the same results in football and MBB....is that making anybody happy?....that is just a slightly better version of being mediocre.

Your statement that we could get these results by not, as you put it, "fleecing students and taxpayers" makes a claim that the goal of the AD is to win conference titles...I believe that to be a goal, but as others have pointed out, it has other goals regarding image/visibility/donations/attendance that it has been very successful with.....calling the entire enterprise a failure simple because of a lack of championships is a gross oversimplification.

Ultimately, I see the claim of rampant "accepting of mediocrity" as just being unfalsifiable. It's a cop-out. For as long as results go poorly, you can always point to it. It's as big of an excuse as any other. When it comes to the excuse machine you describe, I hope you step up and provide this one. You are right to challenge me (and others) to define the ceiling that I described in my first paragraph. I'm not going to do any novel, in depth analysis. I'm only describing what I see as I attend college athletic events (not just football) at all levels. There is a vitality and scale happening at places like BSU and SDSU that is not happening in Laramie. That is having the effect of depressing UW's attractiveness to potential coaches, athletes and upcoming administrators. At this point it seems plausible that the pool of people that would "reject mediocrity" to your standards would not even consider a job/scholarship from UW.

It's interesting that the line used to be "Nobody is thinking UW will be like Nebraska...", now, as you pointed out earlier in this thread, it is "Nobody is thinking wyo will be a bsu...". How long until we put (god forbid) CSU into that statement?

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Thanks for the explanation. I don't have intimate knowledge of the report...If it just says that success will come after UW stops "accepting mediocrity", then I think it's far too simplistic and probably not accurate. I'm sure that there is more to the report though. There is a utility to "demanding excellence" that we all agree exists....but that will have a ceiling. You can insult the people describing that ceiling all you want (indicating them as members of the doom and gloom club) but it won't remove it.

The idea that UW athletic's problems are primarily bounded and within the control of the leadership is just far too simplistic....It's so obvious that the landscape of college athletics have tilted extremely away from UW and UW-like institutions. I do not discount Utah State's success since they have joined the MWC...They are barely ahead of us in terms of conference wins per year sin 2016 and they squeaked out a title...It would literally have taken a win over SDSU in the title game in 2016 and one more conference win during Bohl's last 8 years to have had the exact same conference football success in that span. I do not say the same about SJSU. I would not trade the conference wins for the Covid title that they won...but reasonable people could disagree I suppose. In any case, rearrange the deck chairs in the non-revenue sports and give us a title here and there but have the same results in football and MBB....is that making anybody happy?....that is just a slightly better version of being mediocre.

Your statement that we could get these results by not, as you put it, "fleecing students and taxpayers" makes a claim that the goal of the AD is to win conference titles...I believe that to be a goal, but as others have pointed out, it has other goals regarding image/visibility/donations/attendance that it has been very successful with.....calling the entire enterprise a failure simple because of a lack of championships is a gross oversimplification.

Ultimately, I see the claim of rampant "accepting of mediocrity" as just being unfalsifiable. It's a cop-out. For as long as results go poorly, you can always point to it. It's as big of an excuse as any other. When it comes to the excuse machine you describe, I hope you step up and provide this one. You are right to challenge me (and others) to define the ceiling that I described in my first paragraph. I'm not going to do any novel, in depth analysis. I'm only describing what I see as I attend college athletic events (not just football) at all levels. There is a vitality and scale happening at places like BSU and SDSU that is not happening in Laramie. That is having the effect of depressing UW's attractiveness to potential coaches, athletes and upcoming administrators. At this point it seems plausible that the pool of people that would "reject mediocrity" to your standards would not even consider a job/scholarship from UW.

It's interesting that the line used to be "Nobody is thinking UW will be like Nebraska...", now, as you pointed out earlier in this thread, it is "Nobody is thinking wyo will be a bsu...". How long until we put (god forbid) CSU into that statement?

To avoid a bunch of really long posts let's just say agree to disagree. IMO, WYO is plagued by complacency. Simply stating problems are too complex for real success is a cop out. There is no accountability at WYO other than marginally at the hc positions or lower.

 

[307bball]

To avoid a bunch of really long posts let's just say agree to disagree. IMO, WYO is plagued by complacency. Simply stating problems are too complex for real success is a cop out. There is no accountability at WYO other than marginally at the hc positions or lower.

I think the average forum dweller can read around 600 words in three minutes...perfect bathroom break duration. I'm fine with limiting the length but I felt like it was appropriate to address the report, the success you cite USU and SJSU having, as well as try to pry apart the complexity you accuse me of hiding behind.

When it comes to being "plagued by complacency"...I think there is a fair amount of that. It's not that I'm disagreeing with you that the plague exists. It's frustrating because you put forth a compelling, nuanced and complex argument about the university squandering student fees and taxpayer resources and then retreat behind the monolithic "accepting mediocrity" argument. I grant that to be a problem...I'll even stipulate that it is possible that "accepting mediocrity" is the salient variable holding Wyoming back. I'm not saying that I can prove you wrong. I'm saying that it seems as likely as not that the changes that have happened outside of the UW athletic department in college athletics as well as economic/demographic changes that have not been kind to Wyoming in general, are actually a huge deal. There has to be a distinction made between pointing those factors out as an explanatory variable and pointing them out to shield UW admin from blame. I can observe the administrations failings while at the same time considering the depressing realities that seem impervious to local excellence inhabiting the halls of power at UW. Not that local excellence won't help...I just see it hitting that ceiling.

I am not in favor of cutting programs at UW...athletic or otherwise. The university is a great asset of the state. It has to be about more than just "did we win a conference championship?". If that is all there is, then there truly is no place anymore for amateur athletics in college sports. If the concept of amateurism completely dies (and it appears to be on life support), UW athletics dies with it.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I think there is some confusion about what is meant by being disappointed. If the metric is just as simple as "am I happy or unhappy with the program"...then I think a lot of people's answer during Bohl's tenure would be yes...if you just have to choose between those two options. That is different than being satisfied though. "Happy with the program" seems to mean winning home games, no scandals, and beating CSU a lot. Most fans seem "happy" with those outcomes while at the same time being disappointed that the top of the conference is always out of reach.

In general, I think it's really hard to do what Bohl did ... meaning that to only barely be .500 in conference for the last 8 years while still being successful at those metrics that keep fans happy is no small feat. IMO, if coach Turkey Club's program can't at least maintain the level of success that Bohl's program had, it only makes my argument stronger that winning (at something near the level of BSU) at the University of Wyoming is constrained by factors outside of the control of the man running the football program. the only way to disprove this is if coach BLT or some future coach actually pulls off a run of successful years vying for and winning conference titles. The pace at which Wyoming goes through coaches means that by 2050 we might have 4 to 6 more coaches that we have gone through.....I wish they would give guys two years (maybe 3) to win or appear in a title game. With that sort of policy, we at least get the most bites at the apple. You could make some version of that for the Athletic Director as well....

Acceptance of mediocrity extends far beyond the football program. Both csu and unm have found success in other sports. WYO on the other hand has not (1 year in mens bball during Burman's tenure and the women's team had a decent run). The collective lack of success across the board is a symptom. Not of some unidentified force so complex that it can't be explained but of complacency and self fulfilling prophesies.

Like I said. Agree to disagree.
Edit: this part cut off. If sjsu can offer 17 sports on their budget, we can offer 17 sports on their budget as well. The scam is selling taxpayers and students on the myth of being competitive in the face of complacency. Sjsu-level funding would not significantly reduce our competitiveness.

 

[307bball]

Acceptance of mediocrity extends far beyond the football program. Both csu and unm have found success in other sports. WYO on the other hand has not (1 year in mens bball during Burman's tenure and the women's team had a decent run). The collective lack of success across the board is a symptom. Not of some unidentified force so complex that it can't be explained but of complacency and self fulfilling prophesies.

Like I said. Agree to disagree.
Edit: this part cut off. If sjsu can offer 17 sports on their budget, we can offer 17 sports on their budget as well. The scam is selling taxpayers and students on the myth of being competitive in the face of complacency. Sjsu-level funding would not significantly reduce our competitiveness.

Ironic that I'm the one being accused of being vague. What's the problem Wyoming athletics? Ragtime's Response: "Oh...didn't you know?...they accept mediocrity." *walks away*

You continue to refuse to engage the full point I'm trying to make with you...very frustrating when I spend some time to flesh something out and then it gets completely cherry-picked. Do you want a discussion with some complexity in it or not? You keep saying agree to disagree...but what do we disagree on?...it seems to be that I'm unable to see complacency as the single explanatory variable in UW's athletic failings and you are unwilling to see anything else. You keep making the point that we could do better with our resources ... this is something I agree with you on.

I'll attempt one more time to frame this....you have said that "Nobody is thinking wyo will be a bsu..." have you not? This statement alone belies a belief that no matter who we get in to Laramie, the success enjoyed by certain echelon's of college athletics is beyond our reach. Why is that?...certainly this conflicts with your single variable explanation of the mediocrity (or worse) in UW athletics..right? After all...if we fixed that, nothing would stop us from being as good or better than BSU. Or, perhaps, you actually do believe that we are limited in other ways beyond complacency....which is it?

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I'll attempt one more time to frame this....you have said that "Nobody is thinking wyo will be a bsu..." have you not? This statement alone belies a belief that no matter who we get in to Laramie, the success enjoyed by certain echelon's of college athletics is beyond our reach. Why is that?...certainly this conflicts with your single variable explanation of the mediocrity (or worse) in UW athletics..right? After all...if we fixed that, nothing would stop us from being as good or better than BSU. Or, perhaps, you actually do believe that we are limited in other ways beyond complacency....which is it?

bsu is a unicorn among all G5. They grew out of the fcs in the WAC with success in that era which set them up for this era. They had a bulldog administration that helped facilitate that. I'm not sure bsu could replicate bsu if they were starting in this era. In other words, they are an outlier which is foolish to draw any real comparison to. The remainder of the mwc programs, however, are not. You could argue the cali schools are in a recruiting hotbed for football, and I suppose that is another variable. usu challenging in football demonstrates that hurdle is not insurmountable. You are the one that is one-tracked mind. You sound like the people screaming about an air-raid offense when most people were just hoping for a functional passing game.

For any given year, there will be several challenges. Over nearly a quarter of a century, however, those challenges can be overcome and should be overcome more consistently than WYO has done. Holding those challenges as the sole reasons for lack of success while holding nothing/nobody else accountable is accepting of mediocrity.

Have you read the ad strategic plan? What, pages of bs? Unless there is a more detailed document, there were no key performance indicators, no measurables, nothing that someone could be held accountable for. Just a bunch of "goals". Has the media or anyone asked how the ad has addressed the deficiencies identified by the Sternberg Report? Nope, nada. Why? Because we accept mediocrity. Has anyone asked why the department isn't as successful as somewhere like unm--very much an attainable goal? Nope.

Now your turn, if our performance matches sjsu and sjsu can field 17 teams, what would it hurt to give the students and taxpayers a break?