Glenn vs DC vs Bohl by Sagarin

[307bball]

For the life of me I can't figure out this competitive thing. This year, stars aligned to have one of our weakest schedules ever with bsu and Mizzou being down.
Look at last year, a 3 point W over freaking Woofford, a curb stomping by WSU, Mizzou, BSU, and a sizable beatdown by FSU. Hell, Glenn had at minimum 3 in conference teams better than the teams Bohl got stomped by. Then Glenn had OOC with BSU (btw was competitive in a few of those) and various P5 programs. Like I said, Bohl isn't moving mountains yet and is very similar to Glenn.

Burman's quote (paraphrased) was how a power offense will never work at WYO and that we need creativity.

Not saying I agree with that; just an interesting refresher of Burman's excuse, at least 1 of them, for firing Glenn.

Look...is it at least safe to say that neither Glenn's tenure or Bohl's tenure is setting the world on fire? Bohl is doing better against his conference than Glenn did against his...it's really that simple. The fact that Glenn's conference was stronger didn't save him. If Glenn had gone 8-8 his final two seasons there is no way he gets fired. Go 3-13 with getting crushed a lot while losing to CSU....that gets you fired. I'll take the last two years of Bohl over the last two years of Glenn every day of the week. Just my opinion. (obviously I want better than either).

 

[307bball]

The point is that we are investing much higher football now than during the Glenn years. Bohl and his staff are among the highest paid coaching staffs in the conference. Bohl with his retention bonus this year is actually the highest paid coach kn the league. We have a brand new 50 million dollar training facility that is one of the tops in the conference. Our recruiting budget has been significantly increased. We are providing the staff with every resource they need. There literally isn’t anything Craig Bohl could say he is lacking. We are paying top dollar for football now, we are paying for championships.

Yes other schools have also built facilities in the meantime and paid their coaches more, but Joe Glenn was never amongst the highest paid in the conference, he never had arguably the nicest or second nicest facilities in the conference. He never had the kind of recruiting budget. So sure we fired him for failing to contend for championships but he also could legitimately say the program infrastructure was not at a level to contend ever. We weren’t funding football at a level then to honestly expect championships. Our AD recognized this and has since made an enormous investment in football. We fund football now at a championship level relative to our conference peers. We finished 4th in the division this year. Hence the frustration.

Two things.
1. Glenn did not get fired for not competing for championships. He got fired because this teams were not even close to competitive in conference.

2. Nobody "pays" for championships....you pay for a seat at the table. Programs that under-invest will never be able to compete with the higher investing teams, but the inverse is not true. Past a certain point of investment, the diminishing returns kick in pretty hard. Once you ante up in college football...then you have a chance to prove yourself. If our investment in the program is now commensurate with the top quarter of the conference than our expectation should be, over time, that is where we end up. Glenn could definitely use the excuse of lack of investment whenever he faced Utah, BYU, or TCU.....what was his excuse against CSU, UNM, or every other crappy team that curb-stomped us during his last two years?

 

[calpoke25]

The point is that we are investing much higher football now than during the Glenn years. Bohl and his staff are among the highest paid coaching staffs in the conference. Bohl with his retention bonus this year is actually the highest paid coach kn the league. We have a brand new 50 million dollar training facility that is one of the tops in the conference. Our recruiting budget has been significantly increased. We are providing the staff with every resource they need. There literally isn’t anything Craig Bohl could say he is lacking. We are paying top dollar for football now, we are paying for championships.

Yes other schools have also built facilities in the meantime and paid their coaches more, but Joe Glenn was never amongst the highest paid in the conference, he never had arguably the nicest or second nicest facilities in the conference. He never had the kind of recruiting budget. So sure we fired him for failing to contend for championships but he also could legitimately say the program infrastructure was not at a level to contend ever. We weren’t funding football at a level then to honestly expect championships. Our AD recognized this and has since made an enormous investment in football. We fund football now at a championship level relative to our conference peers. We finished 4th in the division this year. Hence the frustration.

Two things.
1. Glenn did not get fired for not competing for championships. He got fired because this teams were not even close to competitive in conference.

2. Nobody "pays" for championships....you pay for a seat at the table. Programs that under-invest will never be able to compete with the higher investing teams, but the inverse is not true. Past a certain point of investment, the diminishing returns kick in pretty hard. Once you ante up in college football...then you have a chance to prove yourself. If our investment in the program is now commensurate with the top quarter of the conference than our expectation should be, over time, that is where we end up. Glenn could definitely use the excuse of lack of investment whenever he faced Utah, BYU, or TCU.....what was his excuse against CSU, UNM, or every other crappy team that curb-stomped us during his last two years?

The words from Burman mouth was fired for not competing for championships. Read the release. But I understand your point.

And if you go back and look his last two teams were not curb stomped as much as you seem to imply. In 07 he lost by 10 to BSU on the blue (year after their Fiesta Bowl), lost by 17 to a 9 win UNM team, and lost close one score games to CSU, SDSU and Air Force. Curb stomping from Utah and BYU. He himself also curb stomped a 9 win, good UVA team in Laramie, and he beat also TCU in 2007.

The 08 team wasn’t good, there’s no way around that one.

 

[LanderPoke]

How many ranked teams did Glenn beat?

 

[aranderson]

This argument has me pretty irritated. Could we be doing better absolutely, could we be doing worse obviously. But we have had four non losing seasons in a row and I sure as hell wouldn't trade anything for that. Now I agree with the concept of needing a different offensive coordinator, however I am not an advocate for the hatred Bohl is receiving. Now if you all want one 10 win season with a title, but then follow it with more mediocre teams and losing records fine, but if you haven't noticed we are so close it's ridiculous. We're right there. We have depth and playmakers. If we haven't reached the top in 2-3 more years then yes I would be gunning for Bohls head too, but we're so close it's stupid to think anyone could have done what he has. A change at O-coordinator is needed then see what happens

 

[calpoke25]

This argument has me pretty irritated. Could we be doing better absolutely, could we be doing worse obviously. But we have had four non losing seasons in a row and I sure as hell wouldn't trade anything for that. Now I agree with the concept of needing a different offensive coordinator, however I am not an advocate for the hatred Bohl is receiving. Now if you all want one 10 win season with a title, but then follow it with more mediocre teams and losing records fine, but if you haven't noticed we are so close it's ridiculous. We're right there. We have depth and playmakers. If we haven't reached the top in 2-3 more years then yes I would be gunning for Bohls head too, but we're so close it's stupid to think anyone could have done what he has. A change at O-coordinator is needed then see what happens

You think this discussion is hatred? Yikes that’s soft.

 

[calpoke25]

How many ranked teams did Glenn beat?

I personally only care about final rankings. Who cares if you beat a team currently ranked and that team then ends up actually being crappy? In that sense Glenn’s best win is against a UVA team that finished just outside the top 25. Bohl beat a 25th ranked SDSU team. Not much difference there. Yes Bohl beat BSU when they were ranked but that ended up being a non ranked team.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Not hating on Bohl and of course he's done better with a weaker schedule.
Here's the state of the program:
1) versus good teams. Get curb stomped and an occasional competitive loss.
2) versus marginal teams. Generally toss-up type games.
3) versus poor teams. Generally wins with some competitive and some blow out wins.

Very similar to previous coaches. It just depends on how many teams from each category are on the schedule.

 

[307bball]

The words from Burman mouth was fired for not competing for championships. Read the release. But I understand your point.

I remember what he said...the fact remains...he goes 8-8 those two years and he doesn't get fired (IMO).

And if you go back and look his last two teams were not curb stomped as much as you seem to imply. In 07 he lost by 10 to BSU on the blue (year after their Fiesta Bowl), lost by 17 to a 9 win UNM team, and lost close one score games to CSU, SDSU and Air Force. Curb stomping from Utah and BYU. He himself also curb stomped a 9 win, good UVA team in Laramie, and he beat also TCU in 2007.

The 08 team wasn’t good, there’s no way around that one.

That was two years of being firmly in the basement of the conference. No two ways about it. Tied for second to last in '07 and then tied for last in '08.

 

[LanderPoke]

Glen never had a season anywhere close to as awesome as 2016. That gives Bohl the edge in my eyes. It was so fun to actually think we were going to win the championship clear up until the final drive of the season.

 

[307bball]

Not hating on Bohl and of course he's done better with a weaker schedule.
Here's the state of the program:
1) versus good teams. Get curb stomped and an occasional competitive loss.

This became untrue last year. That team got outclassed early in the season and did not seem ready for a front-loaded schedule. Since then no team has been able to run away from us.

2) versus marginal teams. Generally toss-up type games.
3) versus poor teams. Generally wins with some competitive and some blow out wins.

Very similar to previous coaches. It just depends on how many teams from each category are on the schedule.

This seems about right. although in the last two years I don't think we have lost at all to a "poor team"...guess it depends on where you draw the line.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Not hating on Bohl and of course he's done better with a weaker schedule.
Here's the state of the program:
1) versus good teams. Get curb stomped and an occasional competitive loss.

This became untrue last year. That team got outclassed early in the season and did not seem ready for a front-loaded schedule. Since then no team has been able to run away from us.

2) versus marginal teams. Generally toss-up type games.
3) versus poor teams. Generally wins with some competitive and some blow out wins.

Very similar to previous coaches. It just depends on how many teams from each category are on the schedule.

This seems about right. although in the last two years I don't think we have lost at all to a "poor team"...guess it depends on where you draw the line.

We haven't played a good team since the front part of last years schedule outside of bsu (the flyboys are decent, I suppose) and Glenn was equally competitive against bsu. Mizzou isn't that great and certainly in line with Tenn or VA.

They are really similar; just fluctuations in the quality of opponents. We might have to agree to disagree, lol.

 

[307bball]

Not hating on Bohl and of course he's done better with a weaker schedule.
Here's the state of the program:
1) versus good teams. Get curb stomped and an occasional competitive loss.

This became untrue last year. That team got outclassed early in the season and did not seem ready for a front-loaded schedule. Since then no team has been able to run away from us.

2) versus marginal teams. Generally toss-up type games.
3) versus poor teams. Generally wins with some competitive and some blow out wins.

Very similar to previous coaches. It just depends on how many teams from each category are on the schedule.

This seems about right. although in the last two years I don't think we have lost at all to a "poor team"...guess it depends on where you draw the line.

We haven't played a good team since the front part of last years schedule outside of bsu (the flyboys are decent, I suppose) and Glenn was equally competitive against bsu. Mizzou isn't that great and certainly in line with Tenn or VA.

They are really similar; just fluctuations in the quality of opponents. We might have to agree to disagree, lol.

In a weird way they kind of mirror each-other....Glenn had the early success and then bottomed out....Bohl struggled early and has trended upwards. We have not competed for the title like we did a few years ago but I don't see the pokes regressing...and even progressing in terms of competitiveness in every game.

 

[307bball]

Ok...I got motivated to actually put together a visual chart. I compiled the conference records of MWC teams since 2012 and charted the backward looking rolling three year average win%. I like a three year rolling average because it smooths out spikes or dips in performance and gives a better idea of the trajectory of a program over time. Here are some takeaways:

1. two teams have been consistently ahead of Wyoming in this metric..SDSU and BSU.

2. One team has never surpassed us in this time frame: Hawaii

3. Wyoming peaked in 2018, at which point only BSU and SDSU were ahead of us.

4. The downturn in 2019 coincided with upticks from Air Force, Utah State, and Fresno State allowing all three to pass us up.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dDO4GBL4uzVJvK9aebRg2ZnXuhKeQa2O

 

[307bball]

The point is that we are investing much higher football now than during the Glenn years. Bohl and his staff are among the highest paid coaching staffs in the conference. Bohl with his retention bonus this year is actually the highest paid coach kn the league. We have a brand new 50 million dollar training facility that is one of the tops in the conference. Our recruiting budget has been significantly increased. We are providing the staff with every resource they need. There literally isn’t anything Craig Bohl could say he is lacking. We are paying top dollar for football now, we are paying for championships.

Yes other schools have also built facilities in the meantime and paid their coaches more, but Joe Glenn was never amongst the highest paid in the conference, he never had arguably the nicest or second nicest facilities in the conference. He never had the kind of recruiting budget. So sure we fired him for failing to contend for championships but he also could legitimately say the program infrastructure was not at a level to contend ever. We weren’t funding football at a level then to honestly expect championships. Our AD recognized this and has since made an enormous investment in football. We fund football now at a championship level relative to our conference peers. We finished 4th in the division this year. Hence the frustration.

Two things.
1. Glenn did not get fired for not competing for championships. He got fired because this teams were not even close to competitive in conference.

2. Nobody "pays" for championships....you pay for a seat at the table. Programs that under-invest will never be able to compete with the higher investing teams, but the inverse is not true. Past a certain point of investment, the diminishing returns kick in pretty hard. Once you ante up in college football...then you have a chance to prove yourself. If our investment in the program is now commensurate with the top quarter of the conference than our expectation should be, over time, that is where we end up. Glenn could definitely use the excuse of lack of investment whenever he faced Utah, BYU, or TCU.....what was his excuse against CSU, UNM, or every other crappy team that curb-stomped us during his last two years?

The words from Burman mouth was fired for not competing for championships. Read the release. But I understand your point.

And if you go back and look his last two teams were not curb stomped as much as you seem to imply. In 07 he lost by 10 to BSU on the blue (year after their Fiesta Bowl), lost by 17 to a 9 win UNM team, and lost close one score games to CSU, SDSU and Air Force. Curb stomping from Utah and BYU. He himself also curb stomped a 9 win, good UVA team in Laramie, and he beat also TCU in 2007.

The 08 team wasn’t good, there’s no way around that one.

http://nevadasportsnet.com/news/rep...ootball-head-coaching-jobs-from-best-to-worst

Interesting article rating MWC football head coaching jobs...Ranks Wyoming 9th. According to the article, Wyoming's football budget is eighth in the conference (less than half what CSU program is paying). CSU budget is over twice what Wyoming's is and their coach compensation is almost the same as Wyoming...(4.5 mill vs 4.6 mill). If there was a direct line between football budget and wins then CSU did not get the memo. This is not the only article that kind of rates program desirability along with budgets. The correlation between high success and and football budget ends up being very tenuous.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Well, I think this has been settled. DC was the worst which forever killed anyone dare mentioning innovative offenses in WYO.

The only thing that changed, imo, is that I now consider Bohl less than or equal to Glenn rather than equal to Glenn. If Bohl didn't have Josh, he'd be firmly in the less than Glenn category.

Say what you want but it does matter to look back at WYO resources relative to conference peers and conference strength. Bohl has been positioned best in terms of resources and had the weakest conference.

 

[307bball]

Well, I think this has been settled. DC was the worst which forever killed anyone dare mentioning innovative offenses in WYO.

The only thing that changed, imo, is that I now consider Bohl less than or equal to Glenn rather than equal to Glenn. If Bohl didn't have Josh, he'd be firmly in the less than Glenn category.

Say what you want but it does matter to look back at WYO resources relative to conference peers and conference strength. Bohl has been positioned best in terms of resources and had the weakest conference.

Yeah...Bohl and Glenn feel very equal to me. The differences seem very minor. With the increased investment in the program (facilities, coaching salry, etc,), came a pretty hefty expectation for success. The issue is that the things holding college football programs back may not be related to program investment.

At the end of the day...the scoreboard and record at the end of the season is mostly a reflection of how good your individual players are in relation to the everybody else's players. All of the coaches salary, stadium building, etc, is an effort to get the best high school players to commit to that school. It is exceedingly rare for teams to under/over perform the actual talent level on the field. I give a lot of love to anybody who wears the brown and gold but I can't swallow the claims that have been made about how amazingly talented we have been lately. We have not. We are a MWC middle tier team and our talent level reflects that.

Glenn had the misfortune of facing teams in the upper end of the MWC with higher talent than Bohl...but, like Bohl, he still had a hard time against the less impressive MWC teams. I see that in order to be a high end MWC team for three to six years would require a shift in our ability to land better recruits. That is not happening no matter who is at the helm.

I agree that a run like BSU has had over the last 15 or so years is just not going to happen.

 

[CowboyNV]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/sources-ohio-state-qb-quinn-ewers-to-enter-transfer-portal-235429798.html

I think this graphically illustrates the direction college athletics is headed in, and Wyoming simply cannot compete, no matter who the coach is.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/sources-ohio-state-qb-quinn-ewers-to-enter-transfer-portal-235429798.html

I think this graphically illustrates the direction college athletics is headed in, and Wyoming simply cannot compete, no matter who the coach is.

As we shouldn’t. I don’t want to see some kid get a million bucks to come play football at Wyoming.

 

[bladerunnr]

Well, I think this has been settled. DC was the worst which forever killed anyone dare mentioning innovative offenses in WYO.

The only thing that changed, imo, is that I now consider Bohl less than or equal to Glenn rather than equal to Glenn. If Bohl didn't have Josh, he'd be firmly in the less than Glenn category.

Say what you want but it does matter to look back at WYO resources relative to conference peers and conference strength. Bohl has been positioned best in terms of resources and had the weakest conference.

DC was the worst? Compared to who? He was far better than Glenn. He got us to 3d in the conference (5-2) with road wins against Air Force and San Diego st.. He got us to 2 bowl games in 5 years and he was 4-1 against csewe.

Joe Glenn is the single worst coach in the last 40, maybe even 50 years of Wyoming football with the exception of Vic ( who was here only 3 years). Glenn's only winning season (7-5) was when he was 3-5 in the conference. We were 7th or 8th in the conference in 4 of his 6 years. And please stop with this relative strength argument. He lost to the worst Sonny Lubick teams. In fact Sonny was fired and then Glenn lost to his replacement - who was an enormous dud, even by csewe standards.
Glenn got a pass for the horrible Vic years. But in some ways, we were even worse under Glenn. During Glenn's last year, we were playing a qb who must have been 25 lbs overweight. Then, just to prove it was no fluke, Joe went to South Dakota and went a stellar 12-34 in 4 years. We never had worse talent on the field than the Glenn era.