Absolutely Embarrassed

[COS Cowboy]

CU lost Dinwiddie and still made it to the NCAA's and we lose Nance and go 1-6 afterwards.

Did you watch yesterday? CU never made it to the NCAA's, just their name did.

Yes, I saw the game but they lost Dinwiddie early in the season and still made it to the NCAA's, which is a hell of a lot better than we did. Trying to hang an argument on one game while ignoring the rest of the long season holds about as much water as my 94 year old dad.

Come on Harlow your better than that

CU went 1-3 after losing Dinwiddie and then recovered. It cost them their top 25 ranking.

The Pokes sure looked like they had recovered after beating CSU and going toe to toe with UNLV. Had they had more time to gell they may have done better in the MW Tourney and the CBI.

 

[stymeman]

So....when is this team going to have depth? I realize it takes a few years etc.....but :tickedoff:

recruit good players that can be an impact from us immediately, and hold the bench more accountable to come in and spell them for quality minutes....I still don't understand why Jack didn't play more in the A&M game looks like Riley was just out there running around, just to fill the uniform

 

[PotatoCreekPete]

CU lost Dinwiddie and still made it to the NCAA's and we lose Nance and go 1-6 afterwards.

Did you watch yesterday? CU never made it to the NCAA's, just their name did.

Yes, I saw the game but they lost Dinwiddie early in the season and still made it to the NCAA's, which is a hell of a lot better than we did. Trying to hang an argument on one game while ignoring the rest of the long season holds about as much water as my 94 year old dad.

Come on Harlow your better than that

CU went 1-3 after losing Dinwiddie and then recovered. It cost them their top 25 ranking.

The Pokes sure looked like they had recovered after beating CSU and going toe to toe with UNLV. Had they had more time to gell they may have done better in the MW Tourney and the CBI.

With all due respect, the word "IF" (they had more time)....is what losers use as an excuse. We still went 1-6 and they went to the NCAA's. Your floor general, Grabau, finished the season with back to back 0 point games, that doesn't appear to me to be a team that is turning it around, that is a team that is struggling. Adams stepped it up but Grabau disappeared. Our "depth" had all the time that they needed, it was at the end of the season to show what they were capable of doing and they didn't up their game and be contributors. CU's depth on the other hand picked up their game and became contributors.

 

[Bryoming]

He blew a knee early in the season.

This is the key to why they recovered. If we had lost Nance during OOC play we may have been able to recover. The team had gelled around him, and losing him late hurt more than losing him early would have. It would have been bad either way, but I believe that the staff would have been able to retool the team more easily if the injury had happened early.

It also helps to have more depth which CU has, that is the real key. I think that is wishful thinking that we would have been able to recover if Nance has been injured earlier with all due respect. What would Wyoming have done differently? When you don't have the depth, you just don't have it. The only thing that I think that Wyoming might have done different would have been to pull the RS on Herndon, but frankly he wouldn't have made any difference in the win column. My gut tells me, that if Nance had gone down earlier, this last season might have been one of the ugliest that we would have seen in a long time.

Depth is definitely important. I'm sure that the staff is doing all they can to get some players that can contribute quality minutes immediately, but it's been a rough start for sure.

As far as what they would have done, it could have been any number of things. First and foremost I'm sure they would have changed their offense to suit a small lineup. For instance, they could have widened the passing lanes and made it easier for our smaller players to create in space. They probably would have also changed up their practice habits to include more conditioning and more ball handling drills. This sort of offense would have probably focused on creating off the bounce 1-on-1 and looking to dish at the last second if you ran into trouble. In my opinion, Sobey, Adams, and Granberry could have done a lot of good things in this scenario. It also would have taken a lot of pressure off of Cooke.

 

[PotatoCreekPete]

He blew a knee early in the season.

This is the key to why they recovered. If we had lost Nance during OOC play we may have been able to recover. The team had gelled around him, and losing him late hurt more than losing him early would have. It would have been bad either way, but I believe that the staff would have been able to retool the team more easily if the injury had happened early.

It also helps to have more depth which CU has, that is the real key. I think that is wishful thinking that we would have been able to recover if Nance has been injured earlier with all due respect. What would Wyoming have done differently? When you don't have the depth, you just don't have it. The only thing that I think that Wyoming might have done different would have been to pull the RS on Herndon, but frankly he wouldn't have made any difference in the win column. My gut tells me, that if Nance had gone down earlier, this last season might have been one of the ugliest that we would have seen in a long time.

Depth is definitely important. I'm sure that the staff is doing all they can to get some players that can contribute quality minutes immediately, but it's been a rough start for sure.

As far as what they would have done, it could have been any number of things. First and foremost I'm sure they would have changed their offense to suit a small lineup. For instance, they could have widened the passing lanes and made it easier for our smaller players to create in space. They probably would have also changed up their practice habits to include more conditioning and more ball handling drills. This sort of offense would have probably focused on creating off the bounce 1-on-1 and looking to dish at the last second if you ran into trouble. In my opinion, Sobey, Adams, and Granberry could have done a lot of good things in this scenario. It also would have taken a lot of pressure off of Cooke.

Those are some very good coaching suggestions. In order to create off the bounce the player has to have a certain level of physical ability, and unfortunately Grabau just hasn't demonstrated that he can do that. The only one that I think that would have really benefited would have been Washington. Adams was already able to take his player off the dribble. These coaching decisions are harder to implement after a long season, but still good suggestions. I am hoping that Coach Shyatt and his staff can do some incredible recruiting here for the spring to address the depth issue, and hopefully that would mean two scholarships to work with instead of one. I am also hoping that Herndon will up his game and that Barnes is as special a recruit as we are all hoping that he is. I have no doubt that Larry Nance, Jr. and his dad and family will make the right decision for his future and if that helps the Pokes this coming season then fine, but if it means that he redshirts, then that is fine also. We have all seen what happens when guys try to come back too early, and I would hate to see that happen to Nance.

This will be a very important and could be a very interesting off season for both the men's and women's BB teams. A lot of work will need to be done and I think that it is clear cut what needs to be accomplished. This will be Shyatt's 4th year since coming back and while I think that the program is headed in the right direction it certainly isn't as far a long as I think we were expecting due to some issues (Nance & Martinez) and lack of production with recruiting.

 

[kansasCowboy]

Again, not an excuse, but a fact. Not three years ago this program was gutted by transfers when Schroyer and his staff left. That's suicide to a program.If I remember right we had something like five transfers and several other bench players that just up and quit. Name who we had coming back? Wadell, who was only avging about 5 ppg, Cruz and an unknown in how he'd play L. Washington. Several of our transfers were key contributors, Jackson ( even though I never liked his one on one crap style of play and lack of ft shooting), M'Baye ( whom was a legit big), and Davis (who was a hard nosed player with lack of shooting range). That's enough right there to tank a program for many, many years.
Shyatts first recruiting class had some good players who stepped up as freshman, we also had several players giving us the run around like Ajayi. We were already dead in our depth. Again, this is a fact. Shyatts coaching got us 21 wins that year. No one expected that of us. If I'm not mistaking many prognosticators had us dubbed in last place.
The next year we gain Adams and Cooke and Sobey, still key contributors, regardless. And manage to lose Martinez and Shakir Smith. Pretty much broke us even on an already lack of depth squad. And Shyatts coaching gets us 20 wins. We don't have a lot to show in terms of depth right now, but our bench has gradually gained over the three years. Yes, "if" we kept Nance through injury, we may be looking at at least NIT right now instead of our demise in the CBI. Yet this team showed way more talent than any of the past couple of years. Shyatt has this program building in the right direction. And maybe it's slower than most of you would like, but we could just as easily be an SJSU type team right now.

 

[PotatoCreekPete]

Again, not an excuse, but a fact. Not three years ago this program was gutted by transfers when Schroyer and his staff left. That's suicide to a program.If I remember right we had something like five transfers and several other bench players that just up and quit. Name who we had coming back? Wadell, who was only avging about 5 ppg, Cruz and an unknown in how he'd play L. Washington. Several of our transfers were key contributors, Jackson ( even though I never liked his one on one crap style of play and lack of ft shooting), M'Baye ( whom was a legit big), and Davis (who was a hard nosed player with lack of shooting range). That's enough right there to tank a program for many, many years.
Shyatts first recruiting class had some good players who stepped up as freshman, we also had several players giving us the run around like Ajayi. We were already dead in our depth. Again, this is a fact. Shyatts coaching got us 21 wins that year. No one expected that of us. If I'm not mistaking many prognosticators had us dubbed in last place.
The next year we gain Adams and Cooke and Sobey, still key contributors, regardless. And manage to lose Martinez and Shakir Smith. Pretty much broke us even on an already lack of depth squad. And Shyatts coaching gets us 20 wins. We don't have a lot to show in terms of depth right now, but our bench has gradually gained over the three years. Yes, "if" we kept Nance through injury, we may be looking at at least NIT right now instead of our demise in the CBI. Yet this team showed way more talent than any of the past couple of years. Shyatt has this program building in the right direction. And maybe it's slower than most of you would like, but we could just as easily be an SJSU type team right now.

Let's take a closer look at those "20 win seasons"....

2011-12: Overall record: 21-12 / Conference: 6-8 - Wyoming had 19 home games and 13 away. Some of the teams that Wyoming beat: Maryland Eastern Shore, Sioux Falls, Utah Valley (2 games).

2012-13: Overall record: 20-14 / Conference: 4-12 - Wyoming had 19 home games and 13 away. Some of the teams that Wyoming beat: North Carolina Central, Southern, CSU-Bakersfield, Oklahoma Panhandle State & Western State (2 games).

2013-14: Overall record: 18-15 / Conference: 9-9 - Wyoming had 18 home games and 14 away. Some of the teams that Wyoming beat: UT-Martin, Arkansas St., Jackson St., Black Hills St. and Northern Colorado.

I am not trying to say that Shyatt didn't have a situation that was tough when he took over and how many deflections that he suffered with. I am not saying that he has not had some success but to just throw out 20 win season numbers can be a bit misleading. When you can have an extra 5 or 6 home games against teams like Oklahoma Panhandle State and Western State it sure does making the plateau of 20 games a lot easier to reach. What is more telling to me is the conference season record, and this is where I point to most of his success, I throw out the 20 win plateau when we are talking having that many more home games against the likes of teams that Wyoming has invited in the AA, and by the way the NCAA tournament people would discount many of those wins against such lesser non-conference competition.

Shyatt's first conference season was 6-8, his second conference season was 4-12 and this past season's conference record was 9-9. Unfortunately the last two seasons with Martinez and Nance going out during the season really made the difference. I do believe that Wyoming would have had a winning conference season if Nance hadn't gone down. Coaches have to plan for injuries on teams and other issues with players, you just hope it isn't a critical player like Nance. With that said I do feel like Shyatt has put too much reliance on a key player or two. Hopefully this issue will be addressed by next season. I am seeing improvement in the conference and this is where I am most encouraged, but the 20 win season I don't give that much credence.

 

[kdwrightuwyo]

You know what, Tater, you're right. Shyatt is a shitty coach that needs fired so we can hire a bigger, splashier named coach with a better record at another school, so he can instantly rebuild our team in one year with a ton of talent that he'll convince to transfer Wyoming from whatever school he came from, while also kicking 3/4 of our current guys off the team. That'll fix Wyoming's basketball woes!

 

[PotatoCreekPete]

You know what, Tater, you're right. Shyatt is a shitty coach that needs fired so we can hire a bigger, splashier named coach with a better record at another school, so he can instantly rebuild our team in one year with a ton of talent that he'll convince to transfer Wyoming from whatever school he came from, while also kicking 3/4 of our current guys off the team. That'll fix Wyoming's basketball woes!

kd, I am still waiting for you to back up what you accused me of saying about challenging people's manhood, etc., and I am sure you expected everyone to forget that you made that stupid charge. So instead of backing up what you say, you come on with another brainstem statement which you have no way of backing up. If there is anyone on this board that can be counted on to make inane charges about other people and twisting what they say and lying about what they say....that is you kd.

I have never stated that Shyatt should be fired, on the contrary I have stated that he is brilliant at X's and O's, or did you forget to read that statement? I am saying (what others have said as well) and that there have been some mistakes on the recruiting side and that there are areas that need to be addressed before next season.

By the way, brainstem, this post wasn't personal until you made it that way with your lying accusation.

 

[kansasCowboy]

I believe NC central is in the NCAA this year. And name any other program that doesn't play smaller schools? Shoot SDSU played San Diego Christian! All teams schedule nobodies. Arkansas st? They were 19-13 this year. Remember we still put bigger schools on the schedule, and Shyatt has won some of those as well.

 

[NowherePoke]

Again, not an excuse, but a fact. Not three years ago this program was gutted by transfers when Schroyer and his staff left. That's suicide to a program.If I remember right we had something like five transfers and several other bench players that just up and quit. Name who we had coming back? Wadell, who was only avging about 5 ppg, Cruz and an unknown in how he'd play L. Washington. Several of our transfers were key contributors, Jackson ( even though I never liked his one on one crap style of play and lack of ft shooting), M'Baye ( whom was a legit big), and Davis (who was a hard nosed player with lack of shooting range). That's enough right there to tank a program for many, many years.
Shyatts first recruiting class had some good players who stepped up as freshman, we also had several players giving us the run around like Ajayi. We were already dead in our depth. Again, this is a fact. Shyatts coaching got us 21 wins that year. No one expected that of us. If I'm not mistaking many prognosticators had us dubbed in last place.
The next year we gain Adams and Cooke and Sobey, still key contributors, regardless. And manage to lose Martinez and Shakir Smith. Pretty much broke us even on an already lack of depth squad. And Shyatts coaching gets us 20 wins. We don't have a lot to show in terms of depth right now, but our bench has gradually gained over the three years. Yes, "if" we kept Nance through injury, we may be looking at at least NIT right now instead of our demise in the CBI. Yet this team showed way more talent than any of the past couple of years. Shyatt has this program building in the right direction. And maybe it's slower than most of you would like, but we could just as easily be an SJSU type team right now.

Let's take a closer look at those "20 win seasons"....

2011-12: Overall record: 21-12 / Conference: 6-8 - Wyoming had 19 home games and 13 away. Some of the teams that Wyoming beat: Maryland Eastern Shore, Sioux Falls, Utah Valley (2 games).

2012-13: Overall record: 20-14 / Conference: 4-12 - Wyoming had 19 home games and 13 away. Some of the teams that Wyoming beat: North Carolina Central, Southern, CSU-Bakersfield, Oklahoma Panhandle State & Western State (2 games).

2013-14: Overall record: 18-15 / Conference: 9-9 - Wyoming had 18 home games and 14 away. Some of the teams that Wyoming beat: UT-Martin, Arkansas St., Jackson St., Black Hills St. and Northern Colorado.

Not sure what the home and away are supposed to tell us. Only low major programs play more away than home and name any program you would like to see Wyoming be comparable to and I am guessing they actually play even more home games than Wyoming.

Nearly every program plays a number of weak games. I doubt SDSU is losing sleep over the fact that their wins this year include 2 non-D1 teams (including a woefully unprepared new NAIA team) along with SUU (arguably the worst team in D-1), UC Riverside, and McNeese State.

A better analysis would look at how the Pokes overall RPI performed (see below). There are a lot of legitimate critiques about how robust the RPI is in evaluating a team, but what matters is that the RPI clearly matters to the NCAA/NIT selection committees, so it is the most important metric.

2011-12: RPI = 91
2012-13: RPI = 78
2013-14: RPI = 134

Schroyer Average RPI = 208 (never in the Top 100)
McClain's Last 4 years Avg. RPI = 145 (none in the Top 100).

Shyatt's teams have generally been better overall than any of Heath's teams or any of McClain's after Uche/Bailey/etc.

That's clear progress. It isn't enough of course. We don't play in the Big Sky. If we want to consistently finish in the Top half of the MWC we need to be a Top 75 RPI team year in and year out and Top 50 if we want to go to the dance.

 

[PotatoCreekPete]

I believe NC central is in the NCAA this year. And name any other program that doesn't play smaller schools? Shoot SDSU played San Diego Christian! All teams schedule nobodies. Arkansas st? They were 19-13 this year. Remember we still put bigger schools on the schedule, and Shyatt has won some of those as well.

Did I ever say that other programs don't load up with non-conference 'softies'? No. You missed the point. The point is, the difference between the upper tier teams that go the Big Dance and the ones that don't, is NOT their non-conference record, but their conference record. Another point is that it is not such an accomplishment of reaching 20 wins as it once was with 5 or 6 more home games against inferior competition. The real difference is in the conference season. Many schools come out of their non-conference portion of the season with really nice records, especially teams that are in the top 6 or 7 conferences, but then they start beating up on each other, and these sterling non-conference records fade in importance. If Wyoming wants get to the Big Dance they are not going to do it by loading up on 'softies' in their non-conference season (even though yes other teams do it), but by winning in the conference portion of their seasons. You know and I know that the NCAA selection committee discounts the wins against such lesser teams earlier in the season. They look for the tough games and the conference record to see how they have done. I am seeing improvement (as I said earlier in the conference portion) but the Pokes aren't there and won't really be until they improve their depth, that is why I pointed out the similarities between CU and Wyoming (despite what they did in the NCAA's this year, they still made it and we didn't because they did well in their conference season). If the object is for Wyoming to get back to the NCAA's (I hope that is our objective) we have to have more depth and less emphasis on one or two stellar players. If you remember Brandenburg's teams, he had an Eric Leckner and a Fennis Dembo and then a great cast of supporting players, that is what I am saying that we need to be competitive in the conference, what is wrong with that? Some people almost sound like, 'gee this is Wyoming, we can't hope to have that type of team anymore', it is almost like they think that if we have one stellar player and he stays healthy and possibly gets us to back to the NCAA's that is all we can hope for. When you have that type of team is when you have seasons like the last two, because things will happen over a long season to players.

 

[kansasCowboy]

If it wasn't your point, why did you list off the non conf "softies" that we've played these last three years? I just commented on your previous post. If it's not your point then don't write it, otherwise you just look like you contradict yourself.
Also. I would love to have a "Dembo and Leckner w/ a supporting cast", but we're not there yet. I explained this with my post on the transfers and players that quit. We are building up to that, and it shows. You act like it's something that can happen in a year or two. But the vast majority of of schools that don't carry names or history of Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, UNC, tend to take a little longer when building their programs back up after it's been gutted. You could bring Bill Self to Wyoming and I doubt he would immediately be bringing in Blue Chip recruits. Shoot, it took Fisher about 6 years to completely change SDSU. I got to be honest, we saw what happened in Fishera first two years at SDSU, I think he had Single digit wins for the season. Tim Miles turned the Rams around. His first two years he only had single digit wins each season. And both those programs were even playing "softies" in their non conf schedule. It took Miles, what? Five years before they made the tourney. I think Fisher was right at six years. And both had losing records five seasons in to their career at those schools. Shyatt took a program that was in worse shape than CSU and SDSU in those coaches first years and you got a team that gave you a 21-12 record, then 20-14, then 18-15. And by year four your beginning to see better recruiting and more depth. Complain all you want, I just know this could easily be far worse than you think it is now.
Don't misconstrue what I'm saying either. I'm not saying that I'm content with where we're at. But I'm excited to see progress year after year, building up, for once, to a NCAA tourney spot.

 

[PotatoCreekPete]

If it wasn't your point, why did you list off the non conf "softies" that we've played these last three years? I just commented on your previous post. If it's not your point then don't write it, otherwise you just look like you contradict yourself.
Also. I would love to have a "Dembo and Leckner w/ a supporting cast", but we're not there yet. I explained this with my post on the transfers and players that quit. We are building up to that, and it shows. You act like it's something that can happen in a year or two. But the vast majority of of schools that don't carry names or history of Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, UNC, tend to take a little longer when building their programs back up after it's been gutted. You could bring Bill Self to Wyoming and I doubt he would immediately be bringing in Blue Chip recruits. Shoot, it took Fisher about 6 years to completely change SDSU. I got to be honest, we saw what happened in Fishera first two years at SDSU, I think he had Single digit wins for the season. Tim Miles turned the Rams around. His first two years he only had single digit wins each season. And both those programs were even playing "softies" in their non conf schedule. It took Miles, what? Five years before they made the tourney. I think Fisher was right at six years. And both had losing records five seasons in to their career at those schools. Shyatt took a program that was in worse shape than CSU and SDSU in those coaches first years and you got a team that gave you a 21-12 record, then 20-14, then 18-15. And by year four your beginning to see better recruiting and more depth. Complain all you want, I just know this could easily be far worse than you think it is now.
Don't misconstrue what I'm saying either. I'm not saying that I'm content with where we're at. But I'm excited to see progress year after year, building up, for once, to a NCAA tourney spot.

I have been VERY consistent and there were no contradictions or ambiguities whatsoever in my post, I think your problem is that you try to read things into the posts, like there is some hidden agenda, etc.. Just read the post, don't try to read something INTO the post. I pointed out how the "20 wins" that you are touting isn't nearly as important as they used to be and I gave evidence of why it isn't so important anymore. Then you tried to say..."gee other schools do it argument", when that wasn't in my original post or had anything to do with it. Yes 20 wins is a threshold, but not as important as it used to be. Strength of schedule is so more critical now than the number of wins, you know that and I know that. That is why you see so many teams from the bigger conferences with 18 or 19 wins get into the big dance, and that is because of the strength of their schedule from their own conferences. I just judge success much more on the conference record than the overall record because the overall record can be padded with 'softies'. The NCAA committee talks about this exact same thing year after year and I agree with them with how we should judge our success or failure. Not all of my comments are critical I will give credit where credit is due, remember the comments that I made about Nance and Adams? IMO the overall record will take care of itself if we take care of the conference season, but the reverse is not true.

I have never thought for a moment that you are satisfied with where we are, but we do differ on how far each of us think that the program is and maybe even how to get to the Holy Grail of basketball and that is to the Big Dance. I don't think that you are ignorant or unknowledgable, good people can and do disagree and that is truly where I think that we are at. I also acknowledged (several times) that Shyatt had a huge hurdle to overcome and that was because of so many defections after he took over, and some seem to want to hang on this as an excuse for a long time, I am not one of them. I also am not saying that things are going to be done overnight. But anyway that you look at it, Wyoming went into this season with a total lack of depth down low. Guys that they had recruited within the last two+ years were sitting on the bench and not able to contribute. That is a coaching mistake in my book. Does this mean that I dislike or want Coach Shyatt fired, absolutely not and far from it. I want and hope that Coach Shyatt is our coach for a very long time (this statement I have also made several times but people seem to want to ignore it). I would hope that we would have at least have some young big to be back-up after 2 1/2 years on the bench, but we didn't have that. That is why you saw Jeron Granberry a 6-4 wing have to go in for a 6-9 forward.... I am surprised as I said earlier, due to the high powered nature of the coaching staff that they didn't have a young big ready to step in this season when needed. For next year we will have a young big that redshirted and a young big that will be a freshmen and those are both big steps in the right direction. But in the short run until these young guys are really ready to take over certain important spots on the team, IMO we need a JC big.

 

[BackHarlowRoad]

Anyone else want Potato and Kansas to meet in person?

 

[BeaverPoke]

Anyone else want Potato and Kansas to meet in person?

I want everyone on this board to meet.
I bet almost everyone would end up getting along in person.

 

[PotatoCreekPete]

Anyone else want Potato and Kansas to meet in person?

I want everyone on this board to meet.
I bet almost everyone would end up getting along in person.

I am fine with it. I will be at the Spring Game with my grandson and of course I will be at the games in the fall.

 

[kansasCowboy]

My opportunities are limited to go to Laramie. Between coaching football, basketball next year, I also work as a CO in a prison and work my remaining time on my wife's family's farm. But if I ever get a free weekend I'm all for meeting anyone on here in Laramie.

 

[fromolwyoming]

Well, I think some of us are meeting up for the Montana game, I pretty sure Mr. T will be here for it. And a couple of us are usually there (I stop by every so often). Just look for a certain someone's sheep colored RV and you'll find it! lol (yes I'm still giving you shit about it!)

 

[Bryoming]

Well, I think some of us are meeting up for the Montana game, I pretty sure Mr. T will be here for it. And a couple of us are usually there (I stop by every so often). Just look for a certain someone's sheep colored RV and you'll find it! lol (yes I'm still giving you shit about it!)

Don't look for the sheep colored RV. That sucker's getting painted this summer! :thumb: