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bullbugle307 said:
you still didn't answer the simple yes or no question. Is it that hard?

Now, you wanna see some intellectual honesty. I don't know the answer to your question. You may have a point. It doesn't hurt that bad to admit it. You should try it sometime.

Do you know the answer? Or was that just a deflection?
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BTW, I'm not pro-trump either. Feds have been screwing people in this land from day 1 of their self proclaimed governance.
 
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Thank you. Seriously. While we're at it, I'm not pro Biden, or Kamala. I hate politicians for the most part. On either side. Bunch of fucking liars that take advantage of people's ignorance for their personal gain, and the gain of the billionaires mostly.

I'm gonna ignore the fact that this source is from industry and take everything as fact. It appears Biden did permit a lot more than Trump. But he was reluctant to say the least for new lease sales. I knew about that second part. And we can agree that production was higher in his presidency than any other, so it's disingenuous to say that he killed the industry during his presidency, or that we didn't collect more in oil royalties than we ever had during his presidency, since we produced more than we ever have.

Back to a question I asked ore, or meant to ask ore at least. How much land was already leased in the land covered by RSRMP vs how much land was part of a canceled lease sale. I was under the impression that the canceled lease sales in RSRMP area were a tiny fraction compared to what was already leased. Is that not true? If it is, it seems like he couldn't have possibly had the devastating impact people are claiming he had.

Also, if that's true, doesn't it seem like concentrating on the permits that actually allow production to happen, and not just be speculative leasing would sorta make sense? Can't stress enough that production was higher in his presidency than any other.

You keep saying it doesn't matter cause the feds won't give up land. By that logic, does canceled lease sales matter at all since production is at record highs and you know Trump is now gonna lease everything he can and produce everything he can? Every president, whether they want to admit it or not, wants to keep prices low. Seems like the best way to do that is to keep production high.

I think a lot of the messaging coming from industry here is because they want to be able to drill wherever they want, whenever they want, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a dirty CA hippy thay hates Wyoming and wants to take your livelihoods. People will suck that shit up because they can't or won't try to understand how this highly complicated system works. Or they have a financial interest in that argument and are willing to lie out their ass to make more money. Most people don't even understand that surface ownership does not equal mineral ownership, and that federal lands belong to ALL Americans, not just those who live near them. They're ripe for manipulation, and I see it every day. It makes me crazy.

The point you were arguing about how we should have the final in how the federal lands within our states borders even though we're a tiny ass fraction of the public land trustees is akin to me telling my out of state neighbors whose land is in a trust that I should have the ultimate say in how their land is managed, cause I actually live closer. It's just not right unless you think we should throw away every concept of property rights we claim to hold dear.

I kinda think the lease sale thing was also a way for Biden to make his idiot followers who think we can have a world without OG right now happy, while at the same time he knew that he could actually have record high domestic production through permitting, which would keep prices lower and give him a better chance at getting reelected.

Also, the article attributes a lot of
delays in the overall process to the legal system. Seems like that's much more of a hang up. Many of the groups mentioned are no friends of mine as hunter. Seems like a problem that only the legislative branch can fix. Republicans have a majority in both the house and senate, shouldn't be that hard to fix. Not sure how many problems they actually want to fix. Seems like a lot of breaking things and retribution politics, which is apparently great when your winning and evil when your losing. Instead of just being wrong on principle. Really, if not for the border, Trans people, and they took our jobs, what would they run on every election.

Yeah, uh, Elon and the billionaires need another tax break even though we're going broke? And we want to take the public lands, if you'll let us. That'll play well. People are stupid but they're not that stupid.
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
BTW, I'm not pro-trump either. Feds have been screwing people in this land from day 1 of their self proclaimed governance.
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Sometimes yes. Nothing is perfect. But I tell you what man, several of my ancestors fought and died for this county. For the federal government that your shitting on constantly because your so filled with hate. I bet you call yourself a Patriot too.

One on D Day. Airborne. 506th parachute infantry regiment. Ever seen band of brothers? He wasn't in Easy Company, he was in Charlie. But your shitting on what he died for. Can you imagine jumping out a airplane into enemy fire, scattered and seperated from your men your supposed to lead. Don't know if you're going to even land on land or drown in a swamp. Or, in Sgt. Deans case, get cut down by a machine gun LEADING your men into the bocage. A 24 year old leading a bunch of 18 to 20 somethings. Bad dudes that none of you will ever compare to. You don't do that shit for something you don't believe in and are willing to die young for. These guys volunteered to be paratroopers when the concept of their application was very much doubtful. A lot of the planners thought they were sending them off to slaughter. A lot of them died. How would that war have been won without the federal government? Tell me. How would we have defeated the Nazis and the Japanese without the federal government.

Same as my great great great grandfather in the Civil War. Went to war at 42, older than I am now, left a wife and several kids behind when he got bushwhacked by confederate sympathizers in Missouri. Took him months to die. November to March IIRC. Cowards. Fucking cowards killed him. Wouldn't even put on a goddamn uniform and fight like a man. No, hide out like your a civilian and then murder a father. Seems like most of you would have been confederates. God damn evil federal government and all. Wonder how you'd have looked in grey.

Going back further, my family swore their allegiance to this country before it was even a country. I have all the genealogy and land grants to prove this. Took some real guts to pledge your allegiance to this idea of a country when it's very existence was an idea and the British were still on American soil. But yeah, fuck all that I guess.
 
bullbugle307 said:
Also, how much of that state and private land "can't be developed" because the state and private landowners don't own the mineral rights and don't have the right to force their will on lands that are owned by ALL Americans, not just the tiny tiny fraction of Americans who live in this state.

Kinda seems like your trying to take advantage of the fact that most people aren't landowners and therefor don't understand that surface ownership doesn't equal owning mineral rights and being able to do whatever you want with what's under the ground you own the surface of.
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An extremely small (almost negligible) amount of the private lands in the RMP does the federal government own the mineral rights on private surface lands. We call these split estates. This is because the private lands in the area were conveyed out in a checkerboard long before the federal government began reserving the minerals under the stock raising homestead act. The state lands were conveyed to the state at statehood. In fact, the minority of lands which were conveyed out in the area under any homestead acts were largely under the desert lands act (where the federal government didn’t and still doesn’t reserved the minerals). Once again - you are dead wrong and are just being an asshole.

Long story short - the RMP is absolutely federal overreach onto private and state lands to prevent energy development in the area. Had the federal government been any other type of owner, private landowners could use eminent domain ‘ways of necessity’ (which are granted by Wyoming’s Constitution)to construct pipelines and roads to develop their minerals.

So keep spewing your made up bullshit and don’t pay any attention when someone who actually knows this stuff calls you out.
 
OrediggerPoke said:
An extremely small (almost negligible) amount of the private lands in the RMP does the federal government own the mineral rights on private surface lands. We call these split estates. This is because the private lands in the area were conveyed out in a checkerboard long before the federal government began reserving the minerals under the stock raising homestead act. The state lands were conveyed to the state at statehood. In fact, the minority of lands which were conveyed out in the area under any homestead acts were largely under the desert lands act (where the federal government didn’t and still doesn’t reserved the minerals). Once again - you are dead wrong and are just being an asshole.

Long story short - the RMP is absolutely federal overreach onto private and state lands to prevent energy development in the area. Had the federal government been any other type of owner, private landowners could use eminent domain ‘ways of necessity’ (which are granted by Wyoming’s Constitution)to construct pipelines and roads to develop their minerals.

So keep spewing your made up bullshit and don’t pay any attention when someone who actually knows this stuff calls you out.
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sounds like your right about the mineral rights. I can admit when I'm wrong about something.

So what about the pipelines on the federal lands? Is it those private holders right to force the federal government to build a pipeline so they can develop their minerals if that's not what the majority of the trustees that own that land want to do?
 
bullbugle307 said:
Sometimes yes. Nothing is perfect. But I tell you what man, several of my ancestors fought and died for this county. For the federal government that your shitting on constantly because your so filled with hate. I bet you call yourself a Patriot too.

One on D Day. Airborne. 506th parachute infantry regiment. Ever seen band of brothers? He wasn't in Easy Company, he was in Charlie. But your shitting on what he died for. Can you imagine jumping out a airplane into enemy fire, scattered and seperated from your men your supposed to lead. Don't know if you're going to even land on land or drown in a swamp. Or, in Sgt. Deans case, get cut down by a machine gun LEADING your men into the bocage. A 24 year old leading a bunch of 18 to 20 somethings. Bad dudes that none of you will ever compare to. You don't do that shit for something you don't believe in and are willing to die young for. These guys volunteered to be paratroopers when the concept of their application was very much doubtful. A lot of the planners thought they were sending them off to slaughter. A lot of them died. How would that war have been won without the federal government? Tell me. How would we have defeated the Nazis and the Japanese without the federal government.

Same as my great great great grandfather in the Civil War. Went to war at 42, older than I am now, left a wife and several kids behind when he got bushwhacked by confederate sympathizers in Missouri. Took him months to die. November to March IIRC. Cowards. Fucking cowards killed him. Wouldn't even put on a goddamn uniform and fight like a man. No, hide out like your a civilian and then murder a father. Seems like most of you would have been confederates. God damn evil federal government and all. Wonder how you'd have looked in grey.

Going back further, my family swore their allegiance to this country before it was even a country. I have all the genealogy and land grants to prove this. Took some real guts to pledge your allegiance to this idea of a country when it's very existence was an idea and the British were still on American soil. But yeah, fuck all that I guess.
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The west won or lost is a matter of perspective. The fed is corrupt to no end. A giant money laundering business. The fed has never cared about anyone except their laundry. When left with no other option, they sometimes do the right thing.
 
Also...still doesn't negate the fact that I didn't say shit about the Rock Springs RMP, or where we should build a pipeline.

Federal government probably made some mistakes. I'll give you that too.

In the interest of objectivity, which company do you work for. I'll bet it'll be real fucking easy to find some super appalling shit that they've done too.
 
bullbugle307 said:
Also...still doesn't negate the fact that I didn't say shit about the Rock Springs RMP, or where we should build a pipeline.
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It's a perfect example of how the fed overreaches and there is merit to more power to the states. All states. WYO voters shouldn't have input on urban issues in CA either.
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
It's a perfect example of how the fed overreaches and there is merit to more power to the states. All states. WYO voters shouldn't have input on urban issues in CA either.
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False equivalency. Urban issues in CA don't take place on federally owned land that we are trustees of. We absolutely should have the same say on federally owned lands in CA as the CAs.

And you know damn well Rock Springs BLM already very much does take local and industry input into account more than non residents. You've got RACs. You've got the County Commissioners giving their input. They're they're to represent industry. I've seen the log book of visitors at the Rock Spring BLM when I've been there. The whole damn page was full of nothing but industry folks there plying their trade.

You guys will have to excuse me for being a tad distrustful of large energy companies. They don't exactly have an excellent track record either.
 
bullbugle307 said:
sounds like your right about the mineral rights. I can admit when I'm wrong about something.

So what about the pipelines on the federal lands? Is it those private holders right to force the federal government to build a pipeline so they can develop their minerals if that's not what the majority of the trustees that own that land want to do?
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Article 1 Section 32 of the Wyoming Constitution guarantees anyone with a landlocked parcel the right to develop it through ‘ways of necessity.’ There is absolutely no requirement of majority. The federal government just ignores the founding principles of this state.

And the federal government isn’t the ‘majority’ in the checkerboard as you state. The federal government owns typically 16 out of every 36 square miles in each township. Private owners own every odd section and the state typically owns every section 16 and 36. But the checkerboard setup absolutely requires one to traverse federal land for development despite the federal government’s minority interest.
 
bullbugle307 said:
False equivalency. Urban issues in CA don't take place on federally owned land that we are trustees of. We absolutely should have the same say on federally owned lands in CA as the CAs.

And you know damn well Rock Springs BLM already very much does take local and industry input into account more than non residents. You've got RACs. You've got the County Commissioners giving their input. They're they're to represent industry. I've seen the log book of visitors at the Rock Spring BLM when I've been there. The whole damn page was full of nothing but industry folks there plying their trade.

You guys will have to excuse me for being a tad distrustful of large energy companies. They don't exactly have an excellent track record either.
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Not really. Feds take marching orders from DC. Abuse of national monument designations throughout the west are examples of federal overreach. BTW, federal dollars are used for CA urban issues making it the same as federal lands.

Either way. They aren't giving up power. It's not in their dna.
 
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OrediggerPoke said:
Article 1 Section 32 of the Wyoming Constitution guarantees anyone with a landlocked parcel the right to develop it through ‘ways of necessity.’ There is absolutely no requirement of majority. The federal government just ignores the founding principles of this state.

And the federal government isn’t the ‘majority’ in the checkerboard as you state. The federal government owns typically 16 out of every 36 square miles in each township. Private owners own every odd section and the state typically owns every section 16 and 36. But the checkerboard setup absolutely requires one to traverse federal land for development despite the federal government’s minority interest.
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No ones saying they can't develop it. You know this. Go ahead a build a well. Drill it. No one's telling you you can't. Whether or the feds want to build a pipeline on lands that they own surface and mineral rights to is a separate matter. You know this.
 
OrediggerPoke said:
Article 1 Section 32 of the Wyoming Constitution guarantees anyone with a landlocked parcel the right to develop it through ‘ways of necessity.’ There is absolutely no requirement of majority. The federal government just ignores the founding principles of this state.

And the federal government isn’t the ‘majority’ in the checkerboard as you state. The federal government owns typically 16 out of every 36 square miles in each township. Private owners own every odd section and the state typically owns every section 16 and 36. But the checkerboard setup absolutely requires one to traverse federal land for development despite the federal government’s minority interest.
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The checkerboard pattern was largely the result of land grants to the builders of the transcontinental railroad. Frequently the railroads retained the mineral rights if they sold the surface which was why Anadarko bought the UP before it was in turn bought by Occidental.
The whole argument about mineral leasing on federal lands is a questionable when you consider the amount of land which is leased but never developed
 
Baby's coming, so I'm out. Good luck making the BLM back into the corrupt Bureau of Livestock and Mining. I'm sure you'll succeed for the next 4 years at least.
 
doreno5 said:
The checkerboard pattern was largely the result of land grants to the builders of the transcontinental railroad. Frequently the railroads retained the mineral rights if they sold the surface which was why Anadarko bought the UP before it was in turn bought by Occidental.
The whole argument about mineral leasing on federal lands is a questionable when you consider the amount of land which is leased but never developed
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Anadarko sold the vast majority of the checkerboard before the Oxy merger. It is no longer owned by Oxy. But what does that matter?

And the issue with the RMP is not just oil and gas, it’s lithium, trona, critical minerals and any other type of energy development you can imagine. That is all revenue to the state which funds our schools.

The idea that just because there is some land somewhere in the big state of Wyoming leased for mineral development is a complete misnomer. It takes a ton of exploration to prove the resource and many of those existing leases are in areas that are completely unproven and marginal at best. The leases were simply acquired because it was a cheap $1 per acre to speculate and hope to hit the lottery. We already know that the area covered by the RMP is one of the richest (and proven) areas in the state for mineral and other energy development. By shutting that off, we are shutting off billions in revenues to fund our schools. That revenue is in the form of lease bonuses (in that area up to $1000 an acre), 50% of the royalties or roughly 9.375% on federal lands and 16.6667% on state lands, and large severance taxes.
 
bullbugle307 said:
No ones saying they can't develop it. You know this. Go ahead a build a well. Drill it. No one's telling you you can't. Whether or the feds want to build a pipeline on lands that they own surface and mineral rights to is a separate matter. You know this.
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Out of all your ill informed (and just factuslly wrong) arguments that you’ve been spouting on here, this one might take the cake. No one is drilling a well that they can’t produce. People and companies don’t say, why don’t I sink $8 million into an effort where I’ve guaranteed myself zero revenue because I’m blocked from actual production. If you don’t understand this very simple rule of economics then I don’t know what to tell you.
 
OrediggerPoke said:
Anadarko sold the vast majority of the checkerboard before the Oxy merger. It is no longer owned by Oxy. But what does that matter?

And the issue with the RMP is not just oil and gas, it’s lithium, trona, critical minerals and any other type of energy development you can imagine. That is all revenue to the state which funds our schools.

The idea that just because there is some land somewhere in the big state of Wyoming leased for mineral development is a complete misnomer. It takes a ton of exploration to prove the resource and many of those existing leases are in areas that are completely unproven and marginal at best. The leases were simply acquired because it was a cheap $1 per acre to speculate and hope to hit the lottery. We already know that the area covered by the RMP is one of the richest (and proven) areas in the state for mineral and other energy development. By shutting that off, we are shutting off billions in revenues to fund our schools. That revenue is in the form of lease bonuses (in that area up to $1000 an acre), 50% of the royalties or roughly 9.375% on federal lands and 16.6667% on state lands, and large severance taxes.
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If the leases were acquired for speculation then they should be voided after a reasonable period of time in which to conduct the needed work and exploration to determine if developing the resources is viable. I also am interested in the disparity in the royalty rates between federal and state lands. I am curious to know why such a large difference?
 
doreno5 said:
If the leases were acquired for speculation then they should be voided after a reasonable period of time in which to conduct the needed work and exploration to determine if developing the resources is viable. I also am interested in the disparity in the royalty rates between federal and state lands. I am curious to know why such a large difference?
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Federal royalties are 18.75%. State royalties are 16.666667%. Not a big difference. Wyoming receives 1/2 the federal royalty directly for all oil and gas produced on federal minerals (9.375%).

Personally - I don’t believe it makes sense to have a once size fits all royalty. Some great areas of the Powder River Basin should be 20% and much of Wyoming should be closer to 12.5% where the economics aren’t as good.

The vast majority of all mineral leases are acquired for some type of ‘speculation .’ That’s the nature of subsurface resources; you don’t really know what you got until there has been significant development. But some areas become much less speculative when the resource has been proven (ie large swaths of the area covered by the Rock Springs RMP).
 
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