Why are public schools scared of vouchers?

[WestWYOPoke]

Ok, explain how a Swyer patient had elevated testosterone. Why no testo measurement at the Olympics?

She didn't have elevated testosterone:

The IBA did not say what test the pair had been subjected to. “The athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential,” it said.

Even if she did, some women have higher testosterone than others. That doesn't make one a male.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

She didn't have elevated testosterone:



Even if she did, some women have higher testosterone than others. That doesn't make one a male.

The other association tested and determined elevated testo levels. Crickets from the Olympics.

I didn't say women. The claim is this is a Swyer patient. How can a Swyer patient have elevated testo?

 

[WestWYOPoke]

I can't find anything that confirms she had a testosterone test anywhere. As far I can tell this is a rumor. The quote I mentioned earlier is from the IBA (the group that banned her from the 23 world championships), stating they didn't check testosterone.

If she did in fact have elevated testosterone, it could be for any number of reasons. It could be natural production or an exogenous source. It is still possible for someone with Swyer to produce testosterone, just like a normal woman.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I can't find anything that confirms she had a testosterone test anywhere. As far I can tell this is a rumor. The quote I mentioned earlier is from the IBA (the group that banned her from the 23 world championships), stating they didn't check testosterone.

If she did in fact have elevated testosterone, it could be for any number of reasons. It could be natural production or an exogenous source. It is still possible for someone with Swyer to produce testosterone, just like a normal woman.

IBA is quoted several times of citing high levels of testosterone which triggered the chromosome test for both. Both of them are Swyer?
Olympics allegedly went by passport only and didn't test testosterone.

No, a Swyer patient cannot produce testosterone like a normal woman. A normal woman has thecal cells in the ovarian structure which produces testosterone. The testosterone is further converted to estrogen after it diffuses to the granulosa cells. Overproduction or lack of conversion is a common source of excess testosterone. Swyer patients lack any ovarian structure and contain gonadal streaks.

The body is "default female" during development but the testes produce amh which is a major hormone that inhibits formation of female parts and to help development of the male parts. In Swyer this is one of the systems that has an error. Only gonadal streaks form; not testes or ovaries thus they are hallmarked by low androgen (and estrogen) levels.

You'll read that the adrenals can produce androgens (testo precursors) which is true, but not to the level of ovaries which is why ovariectomized animals (including humans) are low in estrogen (obviously) and testosterone.

If the testosterone were exogenous, it would be cheating.

Now your turn. How biologically could a Swyer patient have high testosterone--higher than normal women? Also are both boxers Swyer?

 

[WestWYOPoke]

The quote I supplied previously was from the IBA, they did not test testosterone.

Boxing controversy

From the above link:

Both she and Lin failed gender eligibility testing under the International Boxing Association (IBA) in March 2023. Many have speculated this was due to high testosterone levels, even though the testing did not include testosterone.

(The IBA said Khelif was "proven" to have XY chromosomes, which typically indicates an individual is male. However, certain conditions can allow a woman to present XY chromosomes.)

Regarding testosterone levels, the question is does this boxer have Swyer specifically or another form of XY such as Leydig cell agenesis or Complete Androgen Insensitivity. With insensitivity it is normal to have normal or high testosterone levels. However, i also encourage you to look at this study below. A 50- year old woman diagnosed with Swyer and has normal testosterone levels despite not being on exogenous hormones. Perhaps a misdiagnosis or evidence that it is not just black and white.

Swyer patient

 

[ragtimejoe1]

The quote I supplied previously was from the IBA, they did not test testosterone.

Boxing controversy

From the above link:


Regarding testosterone levels, the question is does this boxer have Swyer specifically or another form of XY such as Leydig cell agenesis or Complete Androgen Insensitivity. With insensitivity it is normal to have normal or high testosterone levels. However, i also encourage you to look at this study below. A 50- year old woman diagnosed with Swyer and has normal testosterone levels despite not being on exogenous hormones. Perhaps a misdiagnosis or evidence that it is not just black and white.

Swyer patient

Google the boxer name and testosterone levels. You'll find numerous statements directly from the IBC. Unless they are lying, then the boxer exceeded normal testosterone levels.

The paper you cited says 41 ng/mL which is in the normal range for women. The IBC said above normal.

1 very rare case of 1 very rare condition with normal not elevated testosterone. Still doent answer how Swyre patient, which wyo1016 said it was (obviously he could be wrong with very limited biological knowledge), could have above normal testo levels?

The genotype is xy not xxy. Are both xy boxers Swyre genotypes?

 

[WestWYOPoke]

I did Google the name and testosterone and there are numerous articles, including the one I linked, which state that the assertion of elevated testosterone levels is false... it didn't happen.

Not sure what xxy has to do with this.

This whole issue is assumed up quite simply:

A female (that has always been a female) punched another female who quit (as she has done before). The loser got upset, inferred something false and internet transphobes (not accusing anyone here) ran wild with it.

For those that want to debate on transgenders in female sports, that's fine, but that is not what is happening here.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I did Google the name and testosterone and there are numerous articles, including the one I linked, which state that the assertion of elevated testosterone levels is false... it didn't happen.

Not sure what xxy has to do with this.

This whole issue is assumed up quite simply:

A female (that has always been a female) punched another female who quit (as she has done before). The loser got upset, inferred something false and internet transphobes (not accusing anyone here) ran wild with it.

For those that want to debate on transgenders in female sports, that's fine, but that is not what is happening here.

So you contend iba is lying and never tested testo?

Fact Check: Olympics boxing gender testing controversy explained

Political outrage surrounding two women competing in boxing at the Paris Olympics stems from “a lot of misinformation,” an International Olympics Committee spokesperson said Friday. It all began when the IOC said Algerian boxer Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting of Taiwan were allowed to compete at...

www.nbcnewyork.com

If the xy boxers have elevated testosterone well above normal females, would your opinion be different?

 

[Itsux2beaewe]

Wyo1016 explained it well. She was born with female genitalia, raised as a female, AND competed in the 2020 Olympics as a female where she lost in the quarterfinals. No one complained about it then.

The problem is looking at this in black and white. For the vast majority of people sex is one or the other, but it is not universally binary, there are exceptions.

Actually everything IS black and white. It’s when liberals want things to be gray, pink, blue, green, yellow, fuscia, that things go off the rails.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

Actually everything IS black and white. It’s when liberals want things to be gray, pink, blue, green, yellow, fuscia, that things go off the rails.

This is a perfect example of something that is not black and white. If it were binary, the only question would be: vagina or penis? Answer: vagina. Ok, she's female, nothing else to discuss.

But clearly it's not that simple, is it?

In today's world, nothing is black and white.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

So you contend iba is lying and never tested testo?

Fact Check: Olympics boxing gender testing controversy explained

Political outrage surrounding two women competing in boxing at the Paris Olympics stems from “a lot of misinformation,” an International Olympics Committee spokesperson said Friday. It all began when the IOC said Algerian boxer Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting of Taiwan were allowed to compete at...

www.nbcnewyork.com

If the xy boxers have elevated testosterone well above normal females, would your opinion be different?

For the 3rd time, per my quote, the IBA didn't test testosterone. I've seen the article you quoted, it's ambiguous, if you look at others, including the one I linked, testosterone wasn't tested.

She has competed at multiple international events, including Olympics, and only been DQ'd from 1. If it was proven she took exogenous testosterone/steroids, then she should be disqualified, but there is zero proof that happened prior to Olympics.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

For the 3rd time, per my quote, the IBA didn't test testosterone. I've seen the article you quoted, it's ambiguous, if you look at others, including the one I linked, testosterone wasn't tested.

She has competed at multiple international events, including Olympics, and only been DQ'd from 1. If it was proven she took exogenous testosterone/steroids, then she should be disqualified, but there is zero proof that happened prior to Olympics.

The IBA also cited high levels of testosterone in Khelif's system.

is ambiguous?

There are numerous others that state the same thing. This statement from the IBA says they did not test...https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

In this case, why not test? It would be simple to do so and would help quell a lot of outrage. Test all medalists for hormone levels. If they are high, I think it is most likely that it came from an exogenous source. It very well could have been without the patient's knowledge.

Here's a couple very clear questions:
1) Do you think a person should be able to compete in women's sports with an xy genotype completely unrestricted? No buts or ifs. Nothing. That person should be able to tell the government they are now considered a women; please change all passports and other qualifying documents. From this day forward, this person is a women and should be considered as such in every regard without any exceptions.

2) Do you agree that it is extremely unlikely that a Swyer patient would have elevated testosterone unless it is exogenous? I completely understand you don't believe testosterone was tested in this case.

3) Do you oppose hormone profile testing for olympic athletes?

4) Do you think women's ranges of testosterone should be the same as men since allegedly some women can have the same testosterone levels as men?

 

[WestWYOPoke]

is ambiguous?

There are numerous others that state the same thing. This statement from the IBA says they did not test...https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

In this case, why not test? It would be simple to do so and would help quell a lot of outrage. Test all medalists for hormone levels. If they are high, I think it is most likely that it came from an exogenous source. It very well could have been without the patient's knowledge.

Here's a couple very clear questions:
1) Do you think a person should be able to compete in women's sports with an xy genotype completely unrestricted? No buts or ifs. Nothing. That person should be able to tell the government they are now considered a women; please change all passports and other qualifying documents. From this day forward, this person is a women and should be considered as such in every regard without any exceptions.

I don't have a problem with people with XY genotype competing in women's sports under certain situations, but not a broad unrestricted allowance. I'm not the person to decide who or what situations, but I wouldn't say outright yes or outright no to this.

2) Do you agree that it is extremely unlikely that a Swyer patient would have elevated testosterone unless it is exogenous? I completely understand you don't believe testosterone was tested in this case.

Yes, I agree that it would be very unlikely for a true Swyer patient to have elevated natural testosterone levels.

3) Do you oppose hormone profile testing for olympic athletes?

No, but it needs to be done by medical professionals and kept confidential. Governing bodies need to set realistic restrictions using medical guidance.

4) Do you think women's ranges of testosterone should be the same as men since allegedly some women can have the same testosterone levels as men?

No, male testosterone is typically significantly higher than women on average. There may be some exceptions however. I definitely believe that there are women in sports that are XX and have naturally higher levels of testosterone (not to the level of males). For example, I would be interested to see a longitudinal study of the hormonal levels of athletes like Brittney Griner and Katie Ledecky. I suspect (just a hypothesis), that some of these high-level athletes have higher than normal levels of certain hormones.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

It appears that you acknowledge there must be some limitations on xy genotypes participating in women's sports but you don't want to say what those are. Thus, you only have a opinion on what they shouldn't be. The debate then is more about reasonable limitations.

You also acknowledge hormone profiles have some medically defined ranges (obviously can be debated).

So here's my take on the current situation on why some could consider an xy cutoff appropriate without being bigoted or discriminatory. If the patient is a Swyer patient (or several other medically defined conditions), they likely recieve hormone therapy. Does the Dr in charge consider athletic performance when devising treatment protocol? A Dr, in any country, could be "corrupted" enough to bump levels to maximum ever seen in women. The person without any hormone therapy would be very unlikely to compete due to a variety of factors; thus, the treatment protocol in many cases can determine the ability to compete or not. Can it determine the level of competitiveness? I honestly don't know but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. If a patient can be healthy but noncompetative with low levels of hormone therapy, would it be fair to provide hormone levels in the 99.99 percentile so the patient can be both healthy and competitive? I'm not at all saying that is the case here; we'll never know. However, those advocating an xy cutoff without any further consideration could be looking at it from angles other than discrimination.

At very minimum the Olympics should confirm that all boxers were tested and all were within normal ranges for all hormones/chemicals tested. They can also post the mean, median, and range for things tested. That is not violating anyone's privacy and would add clarity to the situation.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

I agree with everything you say here. In your particular scenario, I acknowledge that that is certainly possible (i.e. doping by way of prescribing exogenous hormones). In this particular case however, given the athlete in question is from Algeria, I think it is highly unlikely. But I would never say impossible.

 

[laxwyo]

Ok, explain how a Swyer patient had elevated testosterone. Why no testo measurement at the Olympics?

I believe they were also disqualified from other events due to being a dude. Saying he was born with female genitalia instead of "without a penis" might be disingenuous. Either way, conservatives have never argued that genitalia made someone a man or woman and that's why we don't believe cutting off genitalia or reforming them makes you the opposite sex.

 

[Itsux2beaewe]

I believe they were also disqualified from other events due to being a dude. Saying he was born with female genitalia instead of "without a penis" might be disingenuous. Either way, conservatives have never argued that genitalia made someone a man or woman and that's why we don't believe cutting off genitalia or reforming them makes you the opposite sex.

 

[Itsux2beaewe]

I believe they were also disqualified from other events due to being a dude. Saying he was born with female genitalia instead of "without a penis" might be disingenuous. Either way, conservatives have never argued that genitalia made someone a man or woman and that's why we don't believe cutting off genitalia or reforming them makes you the opposite sex.

Indeed they were. But remember……..it’s not black and white. It’s pink, yellow, purple blue, green, and and and…..and you can be whatever you want. A pedophile who wants to be with a 12 year old girl isn’t a pedo - they can be a husband. We have a whole political party who can’t explain what a woman is.

But hey, we now have a VP candidate that put tampons in boys bathrooms as Governor of Minnesota so it’s all open to interpretation……… Not sure how that even works. Is a boy suppose to use them for hemorrhoids?

 

[WYO1016]

But hey, we now have a VP candidate that put tampons in boys bathrooms as Governor of Minnesota so it’s all open to interpretation……… Not sure how that even works. Is a boy suppose to use them for hemorrhoids?

Please tell us how having tampons in the boys restroom has any effect on anyone that doesn't need/want them. There are cologne/condom dispensers in every shitty bar men's restroom in the country. It's the same damn thing. Most people don't give it a second look.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

Please tell us how having tampons in the boys restroom has any effect on anyone that doesn't need/want them. There are cologne/condom dispensers in every shitty bar men's restroom in the country. It's the same damn thing. Most people don't give it a second look.

If you think he's mad now, wait until he finds out there are already condom dispensers in some women's restrooms.