Thought this was interesting

[Bryoming]

Hey look, another Burman bashing thread! Must be the off-season...

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Our peers have other revenue sources. If their states gave them as much as ours gives us, they'd be even farther ahead.

Revenue sources such as?

You are Burman :rofl:

That would take a detailed analysis of each budget. If you are truly interested, you can look that up but things like fundraising campaigns, student fees, sponsorships, donations, and probably a host of things that are foreign to WYO.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Hey look, another Burman bashing thread! Must be the off-season...

Nah. The Burman fanclub took it that way. Thread was about dome and how big of deal the 2004? NCAA rules on planes is impacting recruiting.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Not to derail the thread, but I also noticed that the IPF and WAR upgrades were in place by that second article which was Burman's first year. That means all the chest thumping about those by the Burman fanboys is taking credit for something he didn't do.

This was the initial post. YOU took it towards the Burman bashing. No one else. Fanboys. I don't think this means what you think it means....They wouldnt be bashing him...

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Our peers have other revenue sources. If their states gave them as much as ours gives us, they'd be even farther ahead.

Revenue sources such as?

You are Burman :rofl:

That would take a detailed analysis of each budget. If you are truly interested, you can look that up but things like fundraising campaigns, student fees, sponsorships, donations, and probably a host of things that are foreign to WYO.

So you haven't researched any of your claims to actually back up what you're saying. You have no ideas of what he's done or not done. You ASSUME he hasn't done enough yet cannot prove or back that up.

 

[NowherePoke]

This proves my point EXACTLY.

Oh, make no mistake, and I've said numerous times, I don't think all the failed coaches are terrible coaches but they were in a spot because of Burman in which success was less likely. Since the MWC formed, WYO has done well on the facility front regardless of who was in charge. Burman has allowed us to slip in every measurable way beyond facilities.

So yeah, our coaches are winning despite him and the previous coaches lost in part because of lack of support by him.

Any AD worth their salt would be all over this plane problem. Has Burman even asked the NCAA to consider our problem?

Like MWC Tourney Championships? Like NCAA appearances for the first time in what, 15 years? Like getting 3 of our student athletes professional contracts including an NBA first rounder? Like our wrestling program continuing to build and find high level success? Like our wrestling program being asked to the join the premiere wrestling conference in the NCAA. Like our golf team building and building and becoming a force (and producing one of the up and coming young tour professionals)? You're a moron.

How do you know he's not all over the plane problem? Just because some fan on a forum thinks its a cheaper solution, in the shitty Wyoming winters, to charter a plane in so an occasional recruit doesn't have to ride from Denver, doesn't mean its true. Having spent a decent part of my military career in a flying postion, I can tell you with certainty that I want be nowhere near Laramie in January when the wind and snow are blowing. It sucks. Its dangerous. It is nothing like driving I-80. I know its hard to fathom, but there are reasons for things outside of "Burman is an incompetent dick."

Do you believe we should be competitive with CSU in intercollegiate athletics?

It's not a trick question and I think it gets to the heart of how different sides feel about Tom Burman. If you take the tact that they are a much larger University in an exponentially more populated region with local talent (and legal weed...) and that as a result we shouldn't expect to match them, than Burman's results are understandable. If you believe we should be able to match them regardless of those items, than you look at it and realize just how far behind CSU we are. Since Burman took over, they have 16 MWC titles and we have one. They have two NCAA tournament appearances and a win, we have one and zero. They have more bowl appearances (3 to 2) and their athletic budget is significantly larger than ours despite being smaller when Burman took over. The head to head in FB is 4 to 4 during that time frame so we are holding our own in that regard.

You mention that we landed our first NCAA appearance in 15 years, which is great, except the fact that Burman has been AD for almost 9 years and basically 8 seasons. His tenure and decisions are a significant part of why we had such a long drought in Men's Basketball.

The problem is trying to view things in black and white. Has Burman noted some positive accomplishments at Wyoming? I believe so. I think you have to give him credit for a number of solid coaching hires. I think his hires in Wrestling, Volleyball (Callihan), Soccer, Tennis, and Men's BB have all worked out very well and I like the hires in Track/XC (Berryhill) and FB on paper although there aren't any results year.

However, when looking at his tenure as a whole, it is clear that competitive achievements have been limited and structurally we have fallen behind (or further behind) our peers and fallen farther down the pecking order in collegiate athletics. Was that inevitable due to the continued demographic changes in the country, the impact of media revenues, and other factors? Maybe, but I think we are capable of more. JMO.


P.S. Not sure you want to call ragtime a moron one sentence after claiming our golf team is "building and building and becoming a force" while giving Burman credit for David Hearn (who was at UW when I was, and I'm old..it was well before Burman's tenure as AD). Our golf program remains near the bottom of D-1, which is understandable.

Yep thats my bad. I misread some of his person history.

That being said, who's to say us "falling" behind CSU is Burmans fault? Who's to say 9 years ago we lure away Alabamas AD or Boise States AD or Ohio States AD or any other AD that is a "good" AD. Who is to say a single thing would be different? We are up against a lot when it comes to recruiting. Your points about CSU and their advantages ring true and thats only ONE school. We have to compete with BSU, SJSU, SDSU, and Hawaii for recruits and each of them are better "destinations" than Laramie. What would anyone do differently? I am not trying to be a dick or a blowhard or a fanboy, I truly don't know what else can be done.

That's all fair and pretty much what I was referring to. How you feel about Burman largely depends upon your expectations for the program. Those with higher expectations are not happy with our structural decline relative to other programs. However, as you point out, are those higher expectations realistic? Possibly not.

I use CSU as a comparison because they are our closest peer/rival. What changed that allowed them to surpass us structurally? From my perspective:

1. Risk - They have been willing to take risks that UW has simply not been willing or able to take. On the surface, those are not decisions that are made at the AD level. However, the AD can be instrumental in pushing through these projects/decisions and creating a framework for them to be evaluated by the institution/state. CSU is taking on debt to build facilities which will allow them build a brand new stadium and they took significant risks by making the decision to pay coaches in key sports at the top of the MWC pay scale. They also gave those coaches contracts with large guarantees and associated buy-outs. It didn't stop Florida from poaching their coach and no other MWC school could stop that either, but it allowed them to reap a large buyout and put them into the mix for nearly any assistant coach in the country. They have also been able to retain what is unarguably one of the top VB coaching staffs in the country and go out and hire an excellent Women's BB coach. If any of these coaches (Eustachy, the jackass that used to coach FB, etc.) had bombed, they might be in a different spot, but because of the money spent they were able to hire highly coveted coaches.

2. Donations - While we certainly have some great individuals that have provided unbelievable amounts of support to UW athletics, on the whole their mega donor group is larger (in both number and support). We have just as many boosters and our State government has provided significant capital support, but CSU is outpacing us in terms of large donors. Could an AD with a different vision/plan/etc., develop and excite our large donor base to compete? Keep in mind that a lot of this is relatively recent for CSU. This wasn't the case 10 years ago when it was pretty much only Pat Stryker. I don't know the ins and outs to know exactly what changed for them, but it has changed.

3. Growth Mode - Students don't want to pay an increased athletic fee? Who cares, institute it anyway. Don't have enough money to build the stadium? Finance it and build it anyway. A coach is in the middle of the pack in the MWC and having no issues with their student-athletes academically or off the field? Who cares. Fire them and find someone that will win a conference title. Basically, they are committed to winning. We would have never moved on from a coach like Kristen Holt (sure, she "resigned"...). They took the risk and became arguably the top Women's BB team in the league under WIlliams (a Wyoming native, no less).


That doesn't solve all of their problems of course. They still don't have much of a fanbase (their BB support is shameful) and will always be the little brother in their own state, but they are taking steps to improve their position. It feels to me like we are trying to maintain rather than grow. JMO.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Our peers have other revenue sources. If their states gave them as much as ours gives us, they'd be even farther ahead.

Revenue sources such as?

You are Burman :rofl:

That would take a detailed analysis of each budget. If you are truly interested, you can look that up but things like fundraising campaigns, student fees, sponsorships, donations, and probably a host of things that are foreign to WYO.

So you haven't researched any of your claims to actually back up what you're saying. You have no ideas of what he's done or not done. You ASSUME he hasn't done enough yet cannot prove or back that up.

Good hell man. Pull your head out of his ass and look at the numbers. They are readily available along with percentages of state contributions/student contributions/etc. If you want finite details (i.e. budgetary dollars from donors, budgetary dollars from x campaign, budgetary dollars from box seating, etc.) then you have to do detailed search and probably some FOIA requests.

I ASSUME nothing. The numbers I'm citing are exactly correct and readily available. You asked the budgetary breakdown for each school. Here is a place you can start....http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. USA today also has good overall numbers.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Not to derail the thread, but I also noticed that the IPF and WAR upgrades were in place by that second article which was Burman's first year. That means all the chest thumping about those by the Burman fanboys is taking credit for something he didn't do.

This was the initial post. YOU took it towards the Burman bashing. No one else. Fanboys. I don't think this means what you think it means....They wouldnt be bashing him...

Nah, say anything negative about Burman and he has a Burman signal to call his cronies to action. I just added that as an observation in the article. True to form, the Burman signal lit up the sky and here we are.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

This proves my point EXACTLY.

Oh, make no mistake, and I've said numerous times, I don't think all the failed coaches are terrible coaches but they were in a spot because of Burman in which success was less likely. Since the MWC formed, WYO has done well on the facility front regardless of who was in charge. Burman has allowed us to slip in every measurable way beyond facilities.

So yeah, our coaches are winning despite him and the previous coaches lost in part because of lack of support by him.

Any AD worth their salt would be all over this plane problem. Has Burman even asked the NCAA to consider our problem?

Like MWC Tourney Championships? Like NCAA appearances for the first time in what, 15 years? Like getting 3 of our student athletes professional contracts including an NBA first rounder? Like our wrestling program continuing to build and find high level success? Like our wrestling program being asked to the join the premiere wrestling conference in the NCAA. Like our golf team building and building and becoming a force (and producing one of the up and coming young tour professionals)? You're a moron.

How do you know he's not all over the plane problem? Just because some fan on a forum thinks its a cheaper solution, in the shitty Wyoming winters, to charter a plane in so an occasional recruit doesn't have to ride from Denver, doesn't mean its true. Having spent a decent part of my military career in a flying postion, I can tell you with certainty that I want be nowhere near Laramie in January when the wind and snow are blowing. It sucks. Its dangerous. It is nothing like driving I-80. I know its hard to fathom, but there are reasons for things outside of "Burman is an incompetent dick."

Do you believe we should be competitive with CSU in intercollegiate athletics?

It's not a trick question and I think it gets to the heart of how different sides feel about Tom Burman. If you take the tact that they are a much larger University in an exponentially more populated region with local talent (and legal weed...) and that as a result we shouldn't expect to match them, than Burman's results are understandable. If you believe we should be able to match them regardless of those items, than you look at it and realize just how far behind CSU we are. Since Burman took over, they have 16 MWC titles and we have one. They have two NCAA tournament appearances and a win, we have one and zero. They have more bowl appearances (3 to 2) and their athletic budget is significantly larger than ours despite being smaller when Burman took over. The head to head in FB is 4 to 4 during that time frame so we are holding our own in that regard.

You mention that we landed our first NCAA appearance in 15 years, which is great, except the fact that Burman has been AD for almost 9 years and basically 8 seasons. His tenure and decisions are a significant part of why we had such a long drought in Men's Basketball.

The problem is trying to view things in black and white. Has Burman noted some positive accomplishments at Wyoming? I believe so. I think you have to give him credit for a number of solid coaching hires. I think his hires in Wrestling, Volleyball (Callihan), Soccer, Tennis, and Men's BB have all worked out very well and I like the hires in Track/XC (Berryhill) and FB on paper although there aren't any results year.

However, when looking at his tenure as a whole, it is clear that competitive achievements have been limited and structurally we have fallen behind (or further behind) our peers and fallen farther down the pecking order in collegiate athletics. Was that inevitable due to the continued demographic changes in the country, the impact of media revenues, and other factors? Maybe, but I think we are capable of more. JMO.


P.S. Not sure you want to call ragtime a moron one sentence after claiming our golf team is "building and building and becoming a force" while giving Burman credit for David Hearn (who was at UW when I was, and I'm old..it was well before Burman's tenure as AD). Our golf program remains near the bottom of D-1, which is understandable.

Yep thats my bad. I misread some of his person history.

That being said, who's to say us "falling" behind CSU is Burmans fault? Who's to say 9 years ago we lure away Alabamas AD or Boise States AD or Ohio States AD or any other AD that is a "good" AD. Who is to say a single thing would be different? We are up against a lot when it comes to recruiting. Your points about CSU and their advantages ring true and thats only ONE school. We have to compete with BSU, SJSU, SDSU, and Hawaii for recruits and each of them are better "destinations" than Laramie. What would anyone do differently? I am not trying to be a dick or a blowhard or a fanboy, I truly don't know what else can be done.

That's all fair and pretty much what I was referring to. How you feel about Burman largely depends upon your expectations for the program. Those with higher expectations are not happy with our structural decline relative to other programs. However, as you point out, are those higher expectations realistic? Possibly not.

I use CSU as a comparison because they are our closest peer/rival. What changed that allowed them to surpass us structurally? From my perspective:

1. Risk - They have been willing to take risks that UW has simply not been willing or able to take. On the surface, those are not decisions that are made at the AD level. However, the AD can be instrumental in pushing through these projects/decisions and creating a framework for them to be evaluated by the institution/state. CSU is taking on debt to build facilities which will allow them build a brand new stadium and they took significant risks by making the decision to pay coaches in key sports at the top of the MWC pay scale. They also gave those coaches contracts with large guarantees and associated buy-outs. It didn't stop Florida from poaching their coach and no other MWC school could stop that either, but it allowed them to reap a large buyout and put them into the mix for nearly any assistant coach in the country. They have also been able to retain what is unarguably one of the top VB coaching staffs in the country and go out and hire an excellent Women's BB coach. If any of these coaches (Eustachy, the jackass that used to coach FB, etc.) had bombed, they might be in a different spot, but because of the money spent they were able to hire highly coveted coaches.

2. Donations - While we certainly have some great individuals that have provided unbelievable amounts of support to UW athletics, on the whole their mega donor group is larger (in both number and support). We have just as many boosters and our State government has provided significant capital support, but CSU is outpacing us in terms of large donors. Could an AD with a different vision/plan/etc., develop and excite our large donor base to compete? Keep in mind that a lot of this is relatively recent for CSU. This wasn't the case 10 years ago when it was pretty much only Pat Stryker. I don't know the ins and outs to know exactly what changed for them, but it has changed.

3. Growth Mode - Students don't want to pay an increased athletic fee? Who cares, institute it anyway. Don't have enough money to build the stadium? Finance it and build it anyway. A coach is in the middle of the pack in the MWC and having no issues with their student-athletes academically or off the field? Who cares. Fire them and find someone that will win a conference title. Basically, they are committed to winning. We would have never moved on from a coach like Kristen Holt (sure, she "resigned"...). They took the risk and became arguably the top Women's BB team in the league under WIlliams (a Wyoming native, no less).


That doesn't solve all of their problems of course. They still don't have much of a fanbase (their BB support is shameful) and will always be the little brother in their own state, but they are taking steps to improve their position. It feels to me like we are trying to maintain rather than grow. JMO.

First and foremost, I am not satisfied in any capacity with the on court/field performance the last decade that couldnt be further from the truth. I am the biggest B&G Fanboy and want us to be #1 in every sport, every year. I also understand thats the goal of every University and we have to fall in line somewhere. We have a huge uphill climb to compete. I expect us to do everything in our power to accomplish that but we limitations.

1. Risk - This is a slippery slope. We have all praised, on this board, that we are a university of zero debt. If we want to build or expand, we have a state that supports that. And frankly, we have a new stadium renovation coming. We have a new basketball arena in progress. We have the HAOTC. We have the IPF. We have the RAC. We have proven we don't have to go into debt to have elite facilities. Coaching salaries? I agree completely. If we want to compete with the big dogs, we have to pay like the big dogs (the same can be said about the AD position ironically enough). I too think Bohl and Shyatt need fat buyouts to help prevent them from Stepping Stoning us. Shyatt isnt as big as concern Bohl. If he tastes even minor success I believe big time programs will come calling. If that happens, we do need to be able to defend ourselves or atleast benefit from him getting poached.

2. Donors - We don't have nearly the fan base. FoCo has almost 1/4 the population of our entire state. They have tons more donor opportunities. I think for what we have, population-wise, we have gotten phenomenal donors. We get a ton of money from and projects funded from our donors. Its hard to ask for more. I don't think this is realistic with our current population base. Hell, if I had millions, I'd donate millions. But I don't. Most people here don't as well.

3. Growth Mode - I agree to some degree. There is a fine line between building a program the right way and immediate success. I wish we were closer to the winning side but also want guys like Larry Nance who WANT to be here and build the program the right way. Shyatt is proving we can have success with guys who want to be here. AND were doing it without a ton of off-court incidents. When their are issues off the court, they're dealt with. I appreciate that. I don't know the answer here.

Your comment about maintaining rather than grow irks me. I don't know if thats case or not. I see all these things changing on campus and read all these stories of renovations and improvements and how we've had increasingly talented recruiting classes and (outside of this basketball season) we haven't seen a correlating rise in on field performance. I can attribute that to many things besides Burman. It irks me that we have hit our ceiling in terms of financial viability unless the state ponies up more or a HUGE outside donor steps forward.

:twocents:

 

[ELKMT]

Burman should have been fired for hiring and extending Schroyer. Other than that Wyo sports has been about the same for the last 15 years. He nearly killed UW basketball. 1 Conference championship in 8/9 years is pathetic. You would figure a school could win more than that by accident. Lee Moon won more conference championships, so it appears Burman is building quite the legacy.

Actually, he is similar to Moon in his hires. They both hire program killers ( Koening & Schroyer). Difference being football is more important. You mess up a football hire you get fired.

 

[JimmyDimes]

Burman should have been fired for hiring and extending Schroyer. Other than that Wyo sports has been about the same for the last 15 years. He nearly killed UW basketball. 1 Conference championship in 8/9 years is pathetic. You would figure a school could win more than that by accident. Lee Moon won more conference championships, so it appears Burman is building quite the legacy.

Actually, he is similar to Moon in his hires. They both hire program killers ( Koening & Schroyer). Difference being football is more important. You mess up a football hire you get fired.

Wyoming does compete in the fewest number of sponsored MWC sports. And I agree regarding the Schroyer extension. But, 1 conference championship isn't entirely correct. Wrestling has won a few. Last year both tennis and soccer were in title games. Every program minus the one Craig Bohl is rebuilding, finished in the top half of the conference rankings. So, while we haven't won a shit load of MWC titles, our programs are starting to compete at a higher level than say 5 years ago.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

So, while we haven't won a shit load of MWC titles, our programs are starting to compete at a higher level than say 5 years ago.

Not that I disagree with you 100%, but with what happened to the MWC, I would hope so.

 

[J-Rod]

Also, Fargoans who've been to Laramie are correct in having a superiority complex. Laramie makes Fargo look like Paris.

Hyperbole monster is a live and well.

 

[J-Rod]

Seriously though...how does UW not have a waiver for this?

"Location," Glenn said. "It's that simple. Everything goes through Denver now. When I took the job we could take a state plane to fly down to Denver, get recruits and bring them back to Laramie. It was pretty simple."

That changed in 2004 when the NCAA prohibited the use of private or chartered planes in recruiting. It was meant to keep the big-time programs from having an advantage, but Glenn said it ended up hurting schools located a couple of hours from major airports more. Laramie is about a 90-minute drive from Denver.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Seriously though...how does UW not have a waiver for this?

Thanks for getting us back on track! That is what I was wondering. Maybe I've been in the dark, but I haven't heard or thought about this. It would seem that the NCAA would be receptive to some exceptions if it is a big limiting factor for us.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Seriously though...how does UW not have a waiver for this?

Thanks for getting us back on track! That is what I was wondering. Maybe I've been in the dark, but I haven't heard or thought about this. It would seem that the NCAA would be receptive to some exceptions if it is a big limiting factor for us.

How many schools do you think this actually, negatively affects? Are we alone in this or is there a legitimate chance for this to change?

 

[J-Rod]

Most official recruiting visits occur during the winter (December-January). Could UW play up the fact that driving during those months is potentially dangerous? If the student athlete is at risk and flying is safer, maybe the NCAA offers a waiver?

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Seriously though...how does UW not have a waiver for this?

Thanks for getting us back on track! That is what I was wondering. Maybe I've been in the dark, but I haven't heard or thought about this. It would seem that the NCAA would be receptive to some exceptions if it is a big limiting factor for us.

How many schools do you think this actually, negatively affects? Are we alone in this or is there a legitimate chance for this to change?

No idea. I suppose it depends on the criteria. I haven't looked at the flight list into and out of Laramie but I imagine there would need to be a definition of some sort:

Example (example only; parameters obviously could change): If a University resides more than 125 miles from the nearest airport that has at least 4 flights per day, then that school is exempt from the rule.

I was thinking through most schools in our conference and we are definitely the most disadvantaged by this. I would be curious to hear Bohl's and Shyatt's take on it.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Most official recruiting visits occur during the winter (December-January). Could UW play up the fact that driving during those months is potentially dangerous? If the student athlete is at risk and flying is safer, maybe the NCAA offers a waiver?

While I agree that it would take something like this to warrant a change, I cannot see the NCAA agreeing that if the roads are crappy that the conditions in the air will be safer.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Most official recruiting visits occur during the winter (December-January). Could UW play up the fact that driving during those months is potentially dangerous? If the student athlete is at risk and flying is safer, maybe the NCAA offers a waiver?

While I agree that it would take something like this to warrant a change, I cannot see the NCAA agreeing that if the roads are crappy that the conditions in the air will be safer.

Roads can be hazardous long after a storm passes and can't be de-iced nearly as efficient as runways. In other words, I would expect a runway to be safer sooner after a storm than 190 miles of road between Laramie and the Denver Airport.

It sounds as if pre-2004, sending the plane was our preferred method.