THIS SUCKS!

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Here is the question: Is there any way the haters on this board give Burman the props he deserved for landing Bohl and bringing Shyatt back? (I am in no way claiming support or opposition of Burman, i'm just curious....)

If Burman somehow became visionary then my opinion would change. If our coaches are successful, it will be despite Burman, IMO.

For my opinion of Burman to change, I would need to see the following:
1) Our athletic budget in upper third of MWC
2) Re-branding and increased marketing of UW Athletics
3) Full COA in the upper third of MWC
4) Overhaul of game day experience--including encouraging a LOUD AA
5) Strong leadership and commitment to MWC-related issues
6) Upper third for academic benchmarks of our student athletes
7) Upper third of MWC for coach and assistant coach salaries
etc. etc.

The biggest programs left the MWC and our position within the conference declined. Our peers are outpacing relative to budget. If Burman can fix that, then my opinion will change. Until then, I think he is a handicap.

Fair enough...

 

[Wyolie Coyote]

I would absolutely give Burman props in that scenario.

My problem with Burman is that he has been on the job for almost 9 years with almost no competitive success to speak of. That is almost unheard of on the highly competitive world of D-1 athletics. What other school in the MWC would consider a nearly decade long tenure without a MWC title in any sport to be acceptable, much less a success.

My assertion is that Burman has been unable to articulate and deliver a vision for success at UW. Contrast that with Jack Graham at CSU. He may have been an asshole, but he had a vision for what CSU could become and he pushed for a new stadium and for paying his coaches at the top of the MWC scale. They had a vision for growth that involved risks and tough sales. They ask their students to pay higher athletic fees and are willing to take on debt to finance infrastructure growth.

We take very few risks and are visibly content with the status quo to the extent that we consider it a positive when the programs that are really trying (BYU, Utah, CSU) leave the league so that we can compete (although we still don't).

On top of that, there have a large number of embarrassing incidents. I can put up with some of that crap if we are winning, but to have negative headlines on top of losing? Unacceptable.

This

I smell what you're cooking, my rebuttal, i guess, would be why does Shyatt get 5 seasons of pass and support for ONE team but Burman gets hate and malcontent after 9 years for ALL TEAMS? Again, not pro or against Burman just have never understood the hate to the level its reached.

Well, Shyatt has only had 4 seasons this time and while I am very frustrated right now there is zero doubt that Shyatt has delivered more success than his predecessor. Shyatt has been unable to deliver a title in 4 chances, while Burman has been unable to in over 120 chances spread across 14 sports. 0/4 is understandable particularly considering what he took over. 0/120 (approx) is a lot worse IMO.

5 Including his first run here. Thats where I got that number. So every season of no championships is Burman's fault? Do the coaches, assistants, and players not factor into that at all? We all were praising the CDC hire because of the press and buzz he was receiving. How can a lowly UW attract someone like him?!?!!? Then 5 years later Burman is a worthless ass because of his choices. I know thats just one decision and is viewed out of context to a degree, but even the best hires fail sometimes...If Burman lured Coach K away and he struggled, would that still be Burman's fault?

Just like any business, the buck stops at the top. The boss is in control to make fixes through personnel and money. He is accountable for the bottom line which at this point is in the red. Burman's company is not paying any dividends out to stockholders, that is failure in the real world.

 

[NowherePoke]

I would absolutely give Burman props in that scenario.

My problem with Burman is that he has been on the job for almost 9 years with almost no competitive success to speak of. That is almost unheard of on the highly competitive world of D-1 athletics. What other school in the MWC would consider a nearly decade long tenure without a MWC title in any sport to be acceptable, much less a success.

My assertion is that Burman has been unable to articulate and deliver a vision for success at UW. Contrast that with Jack Graham at CSU. He may have been an asshole, but he had a vision for what CSU could become and he pushed for a new stadium and for paying his coaches at the top of the MWC scale. They had a vision for growth that involved risks and tough sales. They ask their students to pay higher athletic fees and are willing to take on debt to finance infrastructure growth.

We take very few risks and are visibly content with the status quo to the extent that we consider it a positive when the programs that are really trying (BYU, Utah, CSU) leave the league so that we can compete (although we still don't).

On top of that, there have a large number of embarrassing incidents. I can put up with some of that crap if we are winning, but to have negative headlines on top of losing? Unacceptable.

This

I smell what you're cooking, my rebuttal, i guess, would be why does Shyatt get 5 seasons of pass and support for ONE team but Burman gets hate and malcontent after 9 years for ALL TEAMS? Again, not pro or against Burman just have never understood the hate to the level its reached.

Well, Shyatt has only had 4 seasons this time and while I am very frustrated right now there is zero doubt that Shyatt has delivered more success than his predecessor. Shyatt has been unable to deliver a title in 4 chances, while Burman has been unable to in over 120 chances spread across 14 sports. 0/4 is understandable particularly considering what he took over. 0/120 (approx) is a lot worse IMO.

5 Including his first run here. Thats where I got that number. So every season of no championships is Burman's fault? Do the coaches, assistants, and players not factor into that at all? We all were praising the CDC hire because of the press and buzz he was receiving. How can a lowly UW attract someone like him?!?!!? Then 5 years later Burman is a worthless ass because of his choices. I know thats just one decision and is viewed out of context to a degree, but even the best hires fail sometimes...If Burman lured Coach K away and he struggled, would that still be Burman's fault?

He hires the coaches. Their success, or lack thereof, is his responsibility.

I don't think all of Burman's hires (or retained coaches in some cases) are poor by any means, and it is difficult to really sort out the causes of each failure, but with such a long tenure it can't be chalked up to just bad luck.

I have more detailed thoughts, but just on my phone standing in line at the airport so I apologize for the brief comment. I don't mean for it to sound this simple.

 

[jessejames02]

Oh get real.

Credit for Bohl and Shyatt?

Throw a few mill against the wall and something is going to stick. By the by, neither has proven themselves yet. Not saying I'm not a Bohliever and I do think Shyatt can get us into the tourney a couple times in a 10 year stretch, but let's not count our chickens before they hatch.

 

[Wyo2dal]

Fairly sure the hiring was more consultant based and not just Burnman based so until I hear different 100% from a reputable source he gets no credit.

 

[SnowyRange]

Fairly sure the hiring was more consultant based and not just Burnman based so until I hear different 100% from a reputable source he gets no credit.

Of course Burman gets credit if they pan out. Consultants know the market, make some contacts, and then ADs have to decide on targets, make the sale, close the deal.

But, of course, Burman gets the blame if they don't pan out.

It's the life of every AD.

 

[joshvanklomp]

How we can possibly have people defend our AD but criticize the likes of Shy is beyond me :?

Since this is clearly directed at me, where have I criticized Shyatt? I'm not the one questioning the direction of the basketball program. I haven't even posted in that thread.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

How we can possibly have people defend our AD but criticize the likes of Shy is beyond me :?

Since this is clearly directed at me, where have I criticized Shyatt? I'm not the one questioning the direction of the basketball program. I haven't even posted in that thread.

My question was based out that thought. Why does this board implode if someone has the nerve to question Shyatt but its like a shared bonding experience to bash Burman. I just didn't quite understand the difference. Some of the responses have helped. I will never understand though why its fine to attack one public figure on an internet forum but not the other but thats just me it seems.

 

[Wyo2dal]

How we can possibly have people defend our AD but criticize the likes of Shy is beyond me :?

Since this is clearly directed at me, where have I criticized Shyatt? I'm not the one questioning the direction of the basketball program. I haven't even posted in that thread.

My question was based out that thought. Why does this board implode if someone has the nerve to question Shyatt but its like a shared bonding experience to bash Burman. I just didn't quite understand the difference. Some of the responses have helped. I will never understand though why its fine to attach one public figure on an internet forum but not the other but thats just me it seems.

I think there are multiple reasons for that, The Coach is always in the media we hear the comments or the excuses. The Coach defending the team or blaming someone else. The AD on the other hand we only hear him when a new hire is made or on special occasions so it's easier to have sympathy for the coach you listen to all year and that much easier to bad mouth the AD who is just a figurehead you never really understand.

That said Burnman hasn't done anything good to correct all the shitty choices he has made. In my eyes he can't do anything to correct his mistakes it's entirely too late for that.

 

[McPeachy]

My question was based out that thought. Why does this board implode if someone has the nerve to question Shyatt but its like a shared bonding experience to bash Burman. I just didn't quite understand the difference. Some of the responses have helped. I will never understand though why its fine to attach one public figure on an internet forum but not the other but thats just me it seems.

I have probably written this so many times, that people here are sick of reading it...but here it is again:

Of course, this is just my opinion...some agree, some don't - and I am good with that. Further, it is also how I would work the job, and how I would hold myself accountable as a UW employee named AD.

And as a fan / booster / donor / whatever, and a believer that athletics IS the front porch to not only the University - academically and likewise, but also is the front porch to our great state......

The AD should be the hardest working individual at the University. He / she should have the hardest working staff as well. I am talking about putting in the hours, shaking hands, kissing ass, in the "paper" every day type of hard work. One step further, he / she should also be the smartest working individuals (within their job objectives and goals) as well...they should have the highest productivity of anyone that is employed by University. And on top of all that, they need to be pioneers and visionaries, not excuse makers and status quo good-enough is good-enough folks.

Oh my. :evil:

 

[WilyWapiti]

My question was based out that thought. Why does this board implode if someone has the nerve to question Shyatt but its like a shared bonding experience to bash Burman. I just didn't quite understand the difference. Some of the responses have helped. I will never understand though why its fine to attach one public figure on an internet forum but not the other but thats just me it seems.

I have probably written this so many times, that people here are sick of reading it...but here it is again:

Of course, this is just my opinion...some agree, some don't - and I am good with that. Further, it is also how I would work the job, and how I would hold myself accountable as a UW employee named AD.

And as a fan / booster / donor / whatever, and a believer that athletics IS the front porch to not only the University - academically and likewise, but also is the front porch to our great state......

The AD should be the hardest working individual at the University. He / she should have the hardest working staff as well. I am talking about putting in the hours, shaking hands, kissing ass, in the "paper" every day type of hard work. One step further, he / she should also be the smartest working individuals (within their job objectives and goals) as well...they should have the highest productivity of anyone that is employed by University. And on top of all that, they need to be pioneers and visionaries, not excuse makers and status quo good-enough is good-enough folks.

Oh my. :evil:

+1
I've never really thought of it that way, but you hit the nail on the head.

WW

 

[WestWYOPoke]

How we can possibly have people defend our AD but criticize the likes of Shy is beyond me :?

Since this is clearly directed at me, where have I criticized Shyatt? I'm not the one questioning the direction of the basketball program. I haven't even posted in that thread.

My question was based out that thought. Why does this board implode if someone has the nerve to question Shyatt but its like a shared bonding experience to bash Burman. I just didn't quite understand the difference. Some of the responses have helped. I will never understand though why its fine to attack one public figure on an internet forum but not the other but thats just me it seems.

I think it's more about the perception of justification to be "bashing" these individuals, not the difference in their roles. There are quite a few people on here that are of the opinion that Burman is long past his expiration date, so there is little to no push back when someone bashes on him. On the flip side, there are very few that think Shyatt is doing a terrible job and/or should be fired. As a result, there is much more "implosion", as you put it, when Shyatt is bashed becasue most of us think these claims are unfounded.

Simply put:

The majority think Burman should be gone, so negative Burman comments are accepted.
Conversely,
The majority think Shyatt is doing a good job, so negative Shyatt comments are criticized.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

How we can possibly have people defend our AD but criticize the likes of Shy is beyond me :?

Since this is clearly directed at me, where have I criticized Shyatt? I'm not the one questioning the direction of the basketball program. I haven't even posted in that thread.

My question was based out that thought. Why does this board implode if someone has the nerve to question Shyatt but its like a shared bonding experience to bash Burman. I just didn't quite understand the difference. Some of the responses have helped. I will never understand though why its fine to attack one public figure on an internet forum but not the other but thats just me it seems.

I think it's more about the perception of justification to be "bashing" these individuals, not the difference in their roles. There are quite a few people on here that are of the opinion that Burman is long past his expiration date, so there is little to no push back when someone bashes on him. On the flip side, there are very few that think Shyatt is doing a terrible job and/or should be fired. As a result, there is much more "implosion", as you put it, when Shyatt is bashed becasue most of us think these claims are unfounded.

Simply put:

The majority think Burman should be gone, so negative Burman comments are accepted.
Conversely,
The majority think Shyatt is doing a good job, so negative Shyatt comments are criticized.

So the morality of the attack matters little compared to general consensus... Good to know. You can be a dick if everyone agrees

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Burman unilaterally hired Schroyer who nearly killed our bball program.
Burman's budgets have not kept pace with inflation.
Our position competitively and financially within the MWC has declined under Burman, overall, despite losing the three best teams.
We were ahead of our rivals from a budget perspective prior to Burman. Now we are not.
Etc. Etc.

There is that.

 

[bladerunnr]

Burman unilaterally hired Schroyer who nearly killed our bball program.
Burman's budgets have not kept pace with inflation.
Our position competitively and financially within the MWC has declined under Burman, overall, despite losing the three best teams.
We were ahead of our rivals from a budget perspective prior to Burman. Now we are not.
Etc. Etc.

There is that.

Hiring Schroyer was 1 thing, but giving him a contract extension after a 7-9 conference record was perhaps the single dumbest thing an AD has ever done at UW.

 

[WyoBrandX]

Just a question relating to Burman....and his haters:

Lets say this season Bohl and the Pokes having a winning season and make a bowl game. Then next year increase the win total by atleast one and another bowl. Then a decade from now we look back and Bohl has put us on the map and is winning at high level.

At the same time, Shyatts upcoming recruiting class is the spark that we need and we make a run at the conference championship and share some portion of one of the two, then make a run at the Tourney. Then the year after were outright champs and win a game in the tourney. A decade from now we look back and haven't had a year lower than 3rd in conference and 5 - 7 tourney appearances and wonder why we were so sad in 14-15.

Here is the question: Is there any way the haters on this board give Burman the props he deserved for landing Bohl and bringing Shyatt back? (I am in no way claiming support or opposition of Burman, i'm just curious....)

I understand my points are all hypothetical but are exactly where we all WANT the programs to go.

If ifs and buts were candy and ... whatever - do you even read the stuff your spewing out?

 

[NowherePoke]

Fairly sure the hiring was more consultant based and not just Burnman based so until I hear different 100% from a reputable source he gets no credit.

It doesn't really work that way though. Snowy Range alluded to it, but for the most part the consultants are handling the tactical aspects of the search (making contact as a third party so both sides have deniability, running background checks, handling documentation, etc.) rather than deciding who should be a candidate and who should be hired.

 

[NowherePoke]

My question was based out that thought. Why does this board implode if someone has the nerve to question Shyatt but its like a shared bonding experience to bash Burman. I just didn't quite understand the difference. Some of the responses have helped. I will never understand though why its fine to attach one public figure on an internet forum but not the other but thats just me it seems.

I have probably written this so many times, that people here are sick of reading it...but here it is again:

Of course, this is just my opinion...some agree, some don't - and I am good with that. Further, it is also how I would work the job, and how I would hold myself accountable as a UW employee named AD.

And as a fan / booster / donor / whatever, and a believer that athletics IS the front porch to not only the University - academically and likewise, but also is the front porch to our great state......

The AD should be the hardest working individual at the University. He / she should have the hardest working staff as well. I am talking about putting in the hours, shaking hands, kissing ass, in the "paper" every day type of hard work. One step further, he / she should also be the smartest working individuals (within their job objectives and goals) as well...they should have the highest productivity of anyone that is employed by University. And on top of all that, they need to be pioneers and visionaries, not excuse makers and status quo good-enough is good-enough folks.

Oh my. :evil:

McPeachy for AD. That is all.

 

[WyoBrandX]

My question was based out that thought. Why does this board implode if someone has the nerve to question Shyatt but its like a shared bonding experience to bash Burman. I just didn't quite understand the difference. Some of the responses have helped. I will never understand though why its fine to attach one public figure on an internet forum but not the other but thats just me it seems.

I have probably written this so many times, that people here are sick of reading it...but here it is again:

Of course, this is just my opinion...some agree, some don't - and I am good with that. Further, it is also how I would work the job, and how I would hold myself accountable as a UW employee named AD.

And as a fan / booster / donor / whatever, and a believer that athletics IS the front porch to not only the University - academically and likewise, but also is the front porch to our great state......

The AD should be the hardest working individual at the University. He / she should have the hardest working staff as well. I am talking about putting in the hours, shaking hands, kissing ass, in the "paper" every day type of hard work. One step further, he / she should also be the smartest working individuals (within their job objectives and goals) as well...they should have the highest productivity of anyone that is employed by University. And on top of all that, they need to be pioneers and visionaries, not excuse makers and status quo good-enough is good-enough folks.

Oh my. :evil:

McPeachy for AD. That is all.

Agreed - he would do well at AD!

 

[NowherePoke]

Burman unilaterally hired Schroyer who nearly killed our bball program.
Burman's budgets have not kept pace with inflation.
Our position competitively and financially within the MWC has declined under Burman, overall, despite losing the three best teams.
We were ahead of our rivals from a budget perspective prior to Burman. Now we are not.
Etc. Etc.

There is that.

Very succinct and accurate.

By any reasonable measure (competitive success, budget level, infrastructure), UW athletics had seen a dramatic decline or at most maintained status quo (and that was not good) during Burman's tenure.

In terms of the question regarding why it is ok to criticize Burman on here and not Shyatt, this is the fundamental reason. There is almost zero evidence that Tom Burman has been successful as the Athletic Director at the University of Wyoming. Shyatt on the other hand, you can quantitatively demonstrate that the program has improved (W-L, APR, Attendance) during his tenure. I am not necessarily satisfied with the state of Men's BB and I am hardly one to jump down anyone's throat for criticizing Shyatt (I am the one that compared him to Joe Glenn and almost launched WW3 on this board), but if you want to argue that Larry Shyatt has done a good job at UW there is plenty of evidence to support your point. Burman? Not so much.