The reason we lost.

[okcwyocowboy]

Penalties. False starts from the very first drive on 3rd and 1 to azizi hearn jumping offsides on 4th and 2. It's that simple. How do u fix it? Discipline. You simply don't put up with stupid penalties. Bench the bastards who commit them. If that doesn't work, run them into the ground til they quit the team. If you can't correct it, find a different career. 10th game of the season and we are losing games from false starts? Unacceptable. Football games are not won, they are lost. Boise did not win the game, they just let us lose it.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

 

[okcwyocowboy]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Of ballpark 7 punts, I only remember 2 or maybe 3 of those where a penalty directly "led" to a punt. Other drives had penalties to be sure but POKES were able to get first downs which somewhat negates the impact of the penalty, imo. Even the 2 or 3 that "led" to a punt, I think at least 1 had a very manageable 3rd down.

It's the same song. Can't convert 3rd down, under 300 yards of total offense, having spread offense like time of posession even though trying to run stall ball, etc. etc. Penalties are part of the problem but not the only or main problem.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

Yea I’m going to disagree that talent is irrelevant at both the college and pro levels and especially so at the college level. There is often a massive gap at Wyoming (and most other G5s) on the depth chart when it comes to talent. ‘Good coaches’ are largely a reflection of the talent they’ve been able to attract and develop.

 

[307bball]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

Yea I’m going to disagree that talent is irrelevant at both the college and pro levels and especially so at the college level. There is often a massive gap at Wyoming (and most other G5s) on the depth chart when it comes to talent. ‘Good coaches’ are largely a reflection of the talent they’ve been able to attract and develop.

Going to have to go w/Oredigger here...talent is huuuuuge.

 

[bladerunnr]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

I'm trying to remember how many superbowls Belicheck won without Brady. Yeah, it's zero. Parcells didn't win crap without Lawrence Taylor and Phil Simms. If anything, talent is underrated and coaching is overrated. Those penalities don't happen at home. Dealing with crowd noise is always going to make it harder on the road team. Boise state has a better qb and better players overall. That's why we lost.

 

[okcwyocowboy]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

I'm trying to remember how many superbowls Belicheck won without Brady. Yeah, it's zero. Parcells didn't win crap without Lawrence Taylor and Phil Simms. If anything, talent is underrated and coaching is overrated. Those penalities don't happen at home. Dealing with crowd noise is always going to make it harder on the road team. Boise state has a better qb and better players overall. That's why we lost.

I was waiting for the Brady comment. Ummm, if Drew bledsoe doesn't get hurt Tom Brady wins zero Superbowls and he's just another backup player in the NFL that you have never heard of.

 

[okcwyocowboy]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

Yea I’m going to disagree that talent is irrelevant at both the college and pro levels and especially so at the college level. There is often a massive gap at Wyoming (and most other G5s) on the depth chart when it comes to talent. ‘Good coaches’ are largely a reflection of the talent they’ve been able to attract and develop.

I didn't say irrelevant I said overrated. I didn't see any players on Boise state that I would rather have on our team. Talent and depth at Wyoming this year is NOT the issue. Remember this is bohls deepest team. The problem, as always in football, is penalties and turnovers. It is now and will be until the end of the world. We are not producing turnovers and we are committing boneheaded penalties and throwing picks.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

Yea I’m going to disagree that talent is irrelevant at both the college and pro levels and especially so at the college level. There is often a massive gap at Wyoming (and most other G5s) on the depth chart when it comes to talent. ‘Good coaches’ are largely a reflection of the talent they’ve been able to attract and develop.

I didn't say irrelevant I said overrated. I didn't see any players on Boise state that I would rather have on our team. Talent and depth at Wyoming this year is NOT the issue. Remember this is bohls deepest team. The problem, as always in football, is penalties and turnovers. It is now and will be until the end of the world. We are not producing turnovers and we are committing boneheaded penalties and throwing picks.

Huh??? You don’t want Shakir? You don’t want Holani? You don’t want Bachmeier?
You don’t want Kaniho? All those guys other than Bachmeier will probably be playing on sundays. If Wyoming had Shakir on the other side of Neyor, we would be a much different team.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

I'm trying to remember how many superbowls Belicheck won without Brady. Yeah, it's zero. Parcells didn't win crap without Lawrence Taylor and Phil Simms. If anything, talent is underrated and coaching is overrated. Those penalities don't happen at home. Dealing with crowd noise is always going to make it harder on the road team. Boise state has a better qb and better players overall. That's why we lost.

I was waiting for the Brady comment. Ummm, if Drew bledsoe doesn't get hurt Tom Brady wins zero Superbowls and he's just another backup player in the NFL that you have never heard of.

WTF. Brady is the best player to ever play the game. If Bledsoe doesn’t get hurt, he either overtakes him or goes and wins Super Bowls with other teams.

 

[307bball]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

I'm trying to remember how many superbowls Belicheck won without Brady. Yeah, it's zero. Parcells didn't win crap without Lawrence Taylor and Phil Simms. If anything, talent is underrated and coaching is overrated. Those penalities don't happen at home. Dealing with crowd noise is always going to make it harder on the road team. Boise state has a better qb and better players overall. That's why we lost.

I was waiting for the Brady comment. Ummm, if Drew bledsoe doesn't get hurt Tom Brady wins zero Superbowls and he's just another backup player in the NFL that you have never heard of.

WTF. Brady is the best player to ever play the game. If Bledsoe doesn’t get hurt, he either overtakes him or goes and wins Super Bowls with other teams.

There are two arguments here...the general one and the specific one. Also the NFL is a terrible analogy to the NCAA because the talent level is far more evenly distrubuted.

In the general case...I think coaching is maybe under-rated and talent is maybe properly rated. This is because...as mentioned early, everyone is talented...in the general case. This means that over the course of say, a decade, a good NFL coach is soooo valuable. The good NFL coach can create the mismatches, on a per game basis, and culture of winning that a guy like Belicheck has obviously done. Maybe the better example here would be Tomlin at Pittsburg.

In the specific case...It is always better to have the GOAT. Elway, Montana, Brady, LT...In any specific game I would bet on talent every time. And the longer that the talent can stick around...the better. That is why the Belechick/Brady thing is so remarkable. You have two of the greatest aligning in time and place.

This breaks down a bit at the college level. Ask yourself this question...would you rather have Saban or Saban's players? A bit ridiculous isn't it. Alabama has an embarassment of talent that any FBS coach would get to multiple SEC title games. Now it is probable that Saban is directly involved in creating that advantage ... so it's hard to tease the two apart. I assume, when we are arguing coaching vs talent, we are assigning to coaching things like x's and o's, in-game strategy, team culture and so on. Talent simply means, how good are the guys on my team compared to the guys across the field. The NFL has done a good job of making the coaching competition about how good of a coach you are...in the NCAA you can mask any coaching deficiencies by just getting better guys on your team.

Maybe, If you are Alabama right now, talent is the most important thing...I mean it's hard to argue that is not the case...Is Saban that much better of a coach than everybody else? I don't think so.

 

[Cornpoke]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

I'm trying to remember how many superbowls Belicheck won without Brady. Yeah, it's zero. Parcells didn't win crap without Lawrence Taylor and Phil Simms. If anything, talent is underrated and coaching is overrated. Those penalities don't happen at home. Dealing with crowd noise is always going to make it harder on the road team. Boise state has a better qb and better players overall. That's why we lost.

I was waiting for the Brady comment. Ummm, if Drew bledsoe doesn't get hurt Tom Brady wins zero Superbowls and he's just another backup player in the NFL that you have never heard of.

WTF. Brady is the best player to ever play the game. If Bledsoe doesn’t get hurt, he either overtakes him or goes and wins Super Bowls with other teams.

There are two arguments here...the general one and the specific one. Also the NFL is a terrible analogy to the NCAA because the talent level is far more evenly distrubuted.

In the general case...I think coaching is maybe under-rated and talent is maybe properly rated. This is because...as mentioned early, everyone is talented...in the general case. This means that over the course of say, a decade, a good NFL coach is soooo valuable. The good NFL coach can create the mismatches, on a per game basis, and culture of winning that a guy like Belicheck has obviously done. Maybe the better example here would be Tomlin at Pittsburg.

In the specific case...It is always better to have the GOAT. Elway, Montana, Brady, LT...In any specific game I would bet on talent every time. And the longer that the talent can stick around...the better. That is why the Belechick/Brady thing is so remarkable. You have two of the greatest aligning in time and place.

This breaks down a bit at the college level. Ask yourself this question...would you rather have Saban or Saban's players? A bit ridiculous isn't it. Alabama has an embarassment of talent that any FBS coach would get to multiple SEC title games. Now it is probable that Saban is directly involved in creating that advantage ... so it's hard to tease the two apart. I assume, when we are arguing coaching vs talent, we are assigning to coaching things like x's and o's, in-game strategy, team culture and so on. Talent simply means, how good are the guys on my team compared to the guys across the field. The NFL has done a good job of making the coaching competition about how good of a coach you are...in the NCAA you can mask any coaching deficiencies by just getting better guys on your team.

Maybe, If you are Alabama right now, talent is the most important thing...I mean it's hard to argue that is not the case...Is Saban that much better of a coach than everybody else? I don't think so.

Yes, Yes he is. Alabama was quite mediocre before he arrived and they had churned through multiple coaches. Look at FSU, Nebraska, Tennessee, Washington, USC, Texas etc. All have had poor coaching hires that set back their respective programs.

 

[flyfishwyo]

Of ballpark 7 punts, I only remember 2 or maybe 3 of those where a penalty directly "led" to a punt. Other drives had penalties to be sure but POKES were able to get first downs which somewhat negates the impact of the penalty, imo. Even the 2 or 3 that "led" to a punt, I think at least 1 had a very manageable 3rd down.

It's the same song. Can't convert 3rd down, under 300 yards of total offense, having spread offense like time of posession even though trying to run stall ball, etc. etc. Penalties are part of the problem but not the only or main problem.

We had 10 possessions, 7 ended in punts. Of those 7, 4 had a penalty that set us back on the last set of downs (we overcame a 1st and 15 on another drive). It's fair to say that penalties ended 40% of our drives. Neither touchdown drive had any penalties.

Also, I don't think lack of talent is what causes penalties.

 

[307bball]

Yes penalties cost us big. But this is a ridiculous take to bench our better players or make them quit the team because they happen to make a penalty at an inopportune time. Mental mistakes will happen. You work on reducing them but you’re never going to be penalty free.

You ever wonder why Bill belichik, bill parcells...win? It's because of what I said. Football games come down to penalties and turnovers. Talent at the college and pro levels is highly overrated. They are all talented.

I'm trying to remember how many superbowls Belicheck won without Brady. Yeah, it's zero. Parcells didn't win crap without Lawrence Taylor and Phil Simms. If anything, talent is underrated and coaching is overrated. Those penalities don't happen at home. Dealing with crowd noise is always going to make it harder on the road team. Boise state has a better qb and better players overall. That's why we lost.

I was waiting for the Brady comment. Ummm, if Drew bledsoe doesn't get hurt Tom Brady wins zero Superbowls and he's just another backup player in the NFL that you have never heard of.

WTF. Brady is the best player to ever play the game. If Bledsoe doesn’t get hurt, he either overtakes him or goes and wins Super Bowls with other teams.

There are two arguments here...the general one and the specific one. Also the NFL is a terrible analogy to the NCAA because the talent level is far more evenly distrubuted.

In the general case...I think coaching is maybe under-rated and talent is maybe properly rated. This is because...as mentioned early, everyone is talented...in the general case. This means that over the course of say, a decade, a good NFL coach is soooo valuable. The good NFL coach can create the mismatches, on a per game basis, and culture of winning that a guy like Belicheck has obviously done. Maybe the better example here would be Tomlin at Pittsburg.

In the specific case...It is always better to have the GOAT. Elway, Montana, Brady, LT...In any specific game I would bet on talent every time. And the longer that the talent can stick around...the better. That is why the Belechick/Brady thing is so remarkable. You have two of the greatest aligning in time and place.

This breaks down a bit at the college level. Ask yourself this question...would you rather have Saban or Saban's players? A bit ridiculous isn't it. Alabama has an embarassment of talent that any FBS coach would get to multiple SEC title games. Now it is probable that Saban is directly involved in creating that advantage ... so it's hard to tease the two apart. I assume, when we are arguing coaching vs talent, we are assigning to coaching things like x's and o's, in-game strategy, team culture and so on. Talent simply means, how good are the guys on my team compared to the guys across the field. The NFL has done a good job of making the coaching competition about how good of a coach you are...in the NCAA you can mask any coaching deficiencies by just getting better guys on your team.

Maybe, If you are Alabama right now, talent is the most important thing...I mean it's hard to argue that is not the case...Is Saban that much better of a coach than everybody else? I don't think so.

Yes, Yes he is. Alabama was quite mediocre before he arrived and they had churned through multiple coaches. Look at FSU, Nebraska, Tennessee, Washington, USC, Texas etc. All have had poor coaching hires that set back their respective programs.

I think this conversation is starting to go past people and we need to make a few things clear.

Are we including the ability to recruit talent when we rate a coach? If we are then all bets are off. The coach that wears the symbol of the big schools will always have an advantage. What is Nick Saban doing that blows the SEC out of the water over the last 10 years??? Do you really think it is x's and o's? I'll grant that he may be a slightly better strategic coach than the averge SEC coach but that does not explain the dominance. The only single variable that does explain it is the talent differential which is enormous.

Now, in fairness, I don't think you can neatly separate the strategic ability of a coach to scheme up a game plan from his recruiting acumen but this debate kind of hinges on it.

I'm trying to ask the question....if you could choose between Nick Saban with average SEC talent over the last ten years...OR the players that have gone through Alabama for the last 10 years with an average SEC coach...what do you choose?

I choose the players...slam dunk. I'm not saying Saban is a bad coach...but if we are choosing single variables to manipulate...I'll take talent over coaching anytime.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Just look in house. Craig Bohl with talent and without talent. His best year was by far his most talented, imo and he ranks similarly across years for penalties. The top 25 least penalized teams this year are among the worst football teams.

 

[307bball]

Just look in house. Craig Bohl with talent and without talent. His best year was by far his most talented, imo and he ranks similarly across years for penalties. The top 25 least penalized teams this year are among the worst football teams.

Yeah....coaches without any talent around don't last very long. Every coach that talks about this acknowledges the same thing...they all want talent.

I think there was a time when there was some legitimate innovation going on in college football. But, anymore, anybody that comes up with something new gets copied so fast that it's hard to get anything out of the advantage.