The Front Porch?

[Brew_Poke]

Seems like if Wyoming's population is aging it might be high time to ramp up that nursing program to take care of them.

Those graduates will just leave, same as from every program.

 

[UWYOmillionaire]

This is an incredibly weak analysis. I appreciate the effort but this was just poorly done and low IQ.

The positive impact of athletics on university enrollment is REAL, but it only works for schools with sustained success and national clout. I'm sorry but a couple 8-win football seasons in a G5 conference with minimal national relevance / media coverage absolutely is not going to make any tangible impact. Look at Alabama over the past two decades to see this effect in action.

The university is weak academically. Period. That's the main driver of enrollment and the value proposition just isn't there to get students from outside the state to attend. This really shouldn't be the case given it's the only real 4-year university in the state, but that's a different conversation.

Amongst other things, Wyoming as a state is not attractive to young people. The climate is not great, it's sparsely populated, there aren't any meaningful jobs, there aren't attractions outside of outdoor oriented activities, and unfortunately it has become a place where Boomers come to retire.

These trends are only going to worsen as (1) demographic trends continue to go in the wrong direction and (2) university degrees are increasingly viewed as a poor investment, especially in a world with AI.

Regardless, the focus on athletics to drive enrollment is not the right strategy for Wyoming, and it's going to take some really competent university administrators / leadership to turn things around.

 

[Hotkarl]

Hard to gauge positive athletic effects when we havent won anything in 20 yrs in basketball and pushing 40 in football

 

[TheRealUW]

LawPoke and others with high schoolers. What is standing out about the other institutions besides rankings in a magazine? Quality of campus faculty? Housing? Offering of programs?

My daughter was a senior last year, so I can speak to this a bit.

One of the big things for her was just the reputation/prestige of the university. She worked extremely hard in high school - was top 10 in a class of about 650, SAT score was in the top 3% nationally, had extensive volunteer work, etc. For her, she felt these accomplishments would be devalued some by going to UW because the acceptance rate is so high. She was concerned about the level of student she was going to be surrounded by. She felt the connections she made in college, with other students and faculty, would likely play a big role in her future career endeavors.

Along the same lines, the alumni network of other universities she visited was way more varied and vast than what UW had. Other universities have alumni in high places in many different career fields. She felt that would be important in opening up internship and job prospects for her. Outside of the energy sector, UW’s alumni network was pretty weak.

Lastly, she did not like the weather. For kids not born and raised in that climate, it can be intimidating. She wanted no part of the winters in Laramie.

 

[UWYOmillionaire]

My daughter was a senior last year, so I can speak to this a bit.

One of the big things for her was just the reputation/prestige of the university. She worked extremely hard in high school - was top 10 in a class of about 650, SAT score was in the top 3% nationally, had extensive volunteer work, etc. For her, she felt these accomplishments would be devalued some by going to UW because the acceptance rate is so high. She was concerned about the level of student she was going to be surrounded by. She felt the connections she made in college, with other students and faculty, would likely play a big role in her future career endeavors.

Along the same lines, the alumni network of other universities she visited was way more varied and vast than what UW had. Other universities have alumni in high places in many different career fields. She felt that would be important in opening up internship and job prospects for her. Outside of the energy sector, UW’s alumni network was pretty weak.

Lastly, she did not like the weather. For kids not born and raised in that climate, it can be intimidating. She wanted no part of the winters in Laramie.

Bingo. For a high-achieving student with options, UW is absolutely not where you want to be.

Weak job prospects and academic departments with subpar faculty / research just isn't conducive to a successful career.

This creates a vicious circle of weak student body -> uncompetitive graduates with bad career prospects -> university lacks prestige and a successful alumni base that can potentially break this downward spiral.

External factors (climate, lack of industries in Wyoming, over-concentration of Boomers living in the state / lack of dynamism) certainly don't help. But over-directing resources and burning money in athletics to try to elevate the profile of the university is just a total harebrained idea that will never work.

 

[rocket city poke]

This is an incredibly weak analysis. I appreciate the effort but this was just poorly done and low IQ.

The positive impact of athletics on university enrollment is REAL, but it only works for schools with sustained success and national clout. I'm sorry but a couple 8-win football seasons in a G5 conference with minimal national relevance / media coverage absolutely is not going to make any tangible impact. Look at Alabama over the past two decades to see this effect in action.

The university is weak academically. Period. That's the main driver of enrollment and the value proposition just isn't there to get students from outside the state to attend. This really shouldn't be the case given it's the only real 4-year university in the state, but that's a different conversation.

Amongst other things, Wyoming as a state is not attractive to young people. The climate is not great, it's sparsely populated, there aren't any meaningful jobs, there aren't attractions outside of outdoor oriented activities, and unfortunately it has become a place where Boomers come to retire.

These trends are only going to worsen as (1) demographic trends continue to go in the wrong direction and (2) university degrees are increasingly viewed as a poor investment, especially in a world with AI.

Regardless, the focus on athletics to drive enrollment is not the right strategy for Wyoming, and it's going to take some really competent university administrators / leadership to turn things around.

THe outdoor recreation opportunities in Wyoming are better than just about anywhere because we don't have as many people.

I agree with you...

While people want to argue about political factions, the data suggests the problem is coming from inside the house, specifically the Boardroom.

Since 2013, executive leadership at UW has been in a state of Institutional Whiplash.

Look at the record:

• Sternberg (2013): Resigned after 4 months. Likely the shortest presidential tenure in modern higher ed history.
• McGinity (2013–16): 2.5 years, largely as an interim stabilizer.
• Nichols (2016–19): 3 years. Her non-renewal was a national headline and a case study in board-presidential friction.
• Theobald (2019–20): 1 year as "Acting" bridge leadership.
• Seidel (2020–26): Currently in year 4, but leaving (June 30th, 2026) after a formal vote of "no confidence" from the faculty in April 2025.

If you read the 2019 HLC Peer Reviewers' Final Report, the accreditors didn't just notice the turnover; they opined on the root cause. This is something we should continue to be concerned about.

The report explicitly calls out "over-reach by the board into the day-to-day management of the university". They found that because the Board directly appoints VPs and Deans (bypassing the President/Provost), the University's leadership structure is fundamentally undermined.

The HLC concluded this has led to a "weakening of shared governance at UW".

The national average for a university president is roughly 6 years. At Wyoming, we are averaging 2.4 years.

When you have SIX leaders in 13 years, you don't have a strategy; you have a collection of short-term "priorities" that never take root. It's no wonder Burman has had so much leeway, I doubt many presidents have had enough time to focus on Athletics.... No Idea what the BOT is doing about him. At this point, it's probably a feature, not a bug.

We can spend millions on "Marketing and Visibility" (the Front Porch) to hide the instability, but you can't fix the "House" (Enrollment and Retention) without a foundation.

Fixing a 20% enrollment drop requires a 10-year plan. Right now, we can't even get a President to last three without major controversy or drama. We are putting a stick in our own spokes and blaming the pavement when we fall off our bike.

Fortunately, we have solid long term leadership in the athletic department.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Fortunately, we have solid long term leadership in the atheletic department.

wait, you're joking, right? A few of those words don't go together.

 

[BigO4WYO]

Interesting. Thanks for the insight. Our beloved university is certainly trending in the wrong direction. I can’t say the prestige or alumni network of UW has ever been a hindrance, but I can’t say it’s ever given a leg up either. Honestly though most people think outdoor activities, now they think Josh Allen. I do think sports has merit. We had some good faculty while I was there and they were well paid for the market and UW had a good reputation for compensation. I’m guessing that’s changed. You can’t underestimate the aspect that there is little to no job market in the state. That hurts. Most people I graduated with wanted to stay in the state but many left begrudgingly.

 

[PAPoke]

This is an incredibly weak analysis. I appreciate the effort but this was just poorly done and low IQ.

The positive impact of athletics on university enrollment is REAL, but it only works for schools with sustained success and national clout. I'm sorry but a couple 8-win football seasons in a G5 conference with minimal national relevance / media coverage absolutely is not going to make any tangible impact. Look at Alabama over the past two decades to see this effect in action.

The university is weak academically. Period. That's the main driver of enrollment and the value proposition just isn't there to get students from outside the state to attend. This really shouldn't be the case given it's the only real 4-year university in the state, but that's a different conversation.

Amongst other things, Wyoming as a state is not attractive to young people. The climate is not great, it's sparsely populated, there aren't any meaningful jobs, there aren't attractions outside of outdoor oriented activities, and unfortunately it has become a place where Boomers come to retire.

These trends are only going to worsen as (1) demographic trends continue to go in the wrong direction and (2) university degrees are increasingly viewed as a poor investment, especially in a world with AI.

Regardless, the focus on athletics to drive enrollment is not the right strategy for Wyoming, and it's going to take some really competent university administrators / leadership to turn things around.

I appreciate how you called me and my post low IQ, but are actually agreeing with my point that Athletics at Wyoming is not a strategy.

 

[UWYOmillionaire]

I appreciate how you called me and my post low IQ, but are actually agreeing with my point that Athletics at Wyoming is not a strategy.

Your conclusion is 100% correct but the analysis you used to support it overly simplistic and doesn't make a lot of sense from my perspective. I am definitely coming off as an a-hole which I apologize for, but the analytical approach you are using is bad.

There are a myriad of factors that drive enrollment. You isolated a single factor (athletic success in football -- which doesn't even make sense in this case, as a couple 8 win seasons is not going to be a driver of enrollment; look at Alabama in the Saban era to see what I am talking about). While ignoring the impact of demographic trends, population growth, academic rankings, etc.. etc... which need to be accounted for to actually understand what is impacting enrollment.

For what it's worth a lot of universities in this region (South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana) have all faced similar declines in enrollment, though not as bad as UW. It all comes down to lack of jobs/opportunities, weak academics caused by a lack of funding, and an aging population.

 

[PAPoke]

Your conclusion is 100% correct but the analysis you used to support it overly simplistic and doesn't make a lot of sense from my perspective. I am definitely coming off as an a-hole which I apologize for, but the analytical approach you are using is bad.

There are a myriad of factors that drive enrollment. You isolated a single factor (athletic success in football -- which doesn't even make sense in this case, as a couple 8 win seasons is not going to be a driver of enrollment; look at Alabama in the Saban era to see what I am talking about). While ignoring the impact of demographic trends, population growth, academic rankings, etc.. etc... which need to be accounted for to actually understand what is impacting enrollment.

For what it's worth a lot of universities in this region (South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana) have all faced similar declines in enrollment, though not as bad as UW. It all comes down to lack of jobs/opportunities, weak academics caused by a lack of funding, and an aging population.

I don’t think you understood why I made this post, candidly. It was supposed to be simplistic and single issue — this is a Wyoming athletics forum. I didn’t think it prudent to bring in all the failings of our University, of which there are many!

You are right, enrollment is a multifaceted issue. We agree there. I could point to dozens of reasons why it’s struggling, many of them well documented in this thread.

The purpose of my post was to challenge many people on this boards perspective that winning games puts butts in seats, and to shed light on the reality that athletic success, even relative to Wyoming, has not positively contributed to enrollment.

If we’re considering how the state should invest in the University, going back to Ragtimes idea of a state funded endowment, or the $3M Bruman is requesting — you have to ask if this spend is a good use of funds, and I think the data, for Wyoming, shows that it’s not.

 

[UWYOmillionaire]

I don’t think you understood why I made this post, candidly. It was supposed to be simplistic and single issue — this is a Wyoming athletics forum. I didn’t think it prudent to bring in all the failings of our University, of which there are many!

You are right, enrollment is a multifaceted issue. We agree there. I could point to dozens of reasons why it’s struggling, many of them well documented in this thread.

The purpose of my post was to challenge many people on this boards perspective that winning games puts butts in seats, and to shed light on the reality that athletic success, even relative to Wyoming, has not positively contributed to enrollment.

If we’re considering how the state should invest in the University, going back to Ragtimes idea of a state funded endowment, or the $3M Bruman is requesting — you have to ask if this spend is a good use of funds, and I think the data, for Wyoming, shows that it’s not.

Okay agreed. The athletic halo effect does not work for G5 conference schools with limited national coverage / visibility.

Even if UW can somehow become dominant year in and year out in football and wins 10+ games a season, I can guarantee there will be virtually zero impact on enrollment.

And for those who say "but look at Boise State?" (which has been consistently dominant in football and made the playoffs last year):

Well yeah, that proves my point. Their enrollment growth (which has been largely in line with other Idaho universities, even those weak in athletics) has been driven by the influx of people in the state over the past decade + a significant presence of Mormons who have a lot of kids.

"To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail". I am entirely unsurprised that the AD is making the case for athletics to elevate the profile of the university, even if the argument is flawed. All of the AD's do this, and he's just talking his book.

I can think of a lot of ways that the university can drive enrollment growth but you need talented, motivated people in the administration ranks to make it happen. UW has a lot of negative external attributes that are out of its control, but there are also a lot of positives that can be used as selling points. A gifted, driven person leading the ship can make this happen today. There is no reason the university needs to fade into increasing irrelevance.

 

[LawPoke]

My daughter was a senior last year, so I can speak to this a bit.

One of the big things for her was just the reputation/prestige of the university. She worked extremely hard in high school - was top 10 in a class of about 650, SAT score was in the top 3% nationally, had extensive volunteer work, etc. For her, she felt these accomplishments would be devalued some by going to UW because the acceptance rate is so high. She was concerned about the level of student she was going to be surrounded by. She felt the connections she made in college, with other students and faculty, would likely play a big role in her future career endeavors.

Along the same lines, the alumni network of other universities she visited was way more varied and vast than what UW had. Other universities have alumni in high places in many different career fields. She felt that would be important in opening up internship and job prospects for her. Outside of the energy sector, UW’s alumni network was pretty weak.

Lastly, she did not like the weather. For kids not born and raised in that climate, it can be intimidating. She wanted no part of the winters in Laramie.

This was exactly my son’s experience. Not to sound elitist but he didn’t even apply to UW. He was born and raised a cowboy, with his first game coming at Ohio when he was two months old. The first word he could spell was Cowboys, because he knew it from the fight song. His lullaby at night was ragtime cowboy Joe. He just doesn’t see a future in Wyoming and didn’t see any real value in a UW degree if he was planning on living elsewhere. Candidly, his decision is more a reflection of the lack of opportunity in WY than anything. Even so, the vibe and accomplishments of other students and faculty at the schools he visited made Wyoming seem like a huge step back.

 

[LanderPoke]

My daughter was a senior last year, so I can speak to this a bit.

One of the big things for her was just the reputation/prestige of the university. She worked extremely hard in high school - was top 10 in a class of about 650, SAT score was in the top 3% nationally, had extensive volunteer work, etc. For her, she felt these accomplishments would be devalued some by going to UW because the acceptance rate is so high. She was concerned about the level of student she was going to be surrounded by. She felt the connections she made in college, with other students and faculty, would likely play a big role in her future career endeavors.

Along the same lines, the alumni network of other universities she visited was way more varied and vast than what UW had. Other universities have alumni in high places in many different career fields. She felt that would be important in opening up internship and job prospects for her. Outside of the energy sector, UW’s alumni network was pretty weak.

Lastly, she did not like the weather. For kids not born and raised in that climate, it can be intimidating. She wanted no part of the winters in Laramie.

Meh. That’s what grad school is for-making connections. Accounting majors still end up as CPAs, biology majors nurses, doctors, PAs, ed majors teaches, engineering majors still become PEs , etc. I will admit that you won’t get into the private equity or high major finance jobs like you might back east or in the west coast

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Land grant mission. UW within the region does pretty well at what it is intended to do. Serve the land grant mission in the state and proximal region. Maybe the top school in SD, ND, MT, WY, and ID?

Second, it isn't hard. You can always marginalize athletics relative academics. Always. It's an argument since universities started with athletics.

You either want athletics or not. If you want them, you gotta spend. If you want to win, you gotta spend more.

 

[ZapPoke]

US News Ranking:
89 Wyoming
93 Colorado
122 CSU
123 Denver
174 North Dakota State
230 North Dakota
232 Montana
238 South Dakota State
257 South Dakota

But Wyoming sucks so why would anyone want to come here? I’m one of those damned boomers you shits complain about. I too had to leave the state due to my career trajectory. Exiled to Texas for ten years. But when I decided to retire (early thanks to covid) I came back so I guess I am part of the problem of retirees moving to Wyoming. My daughter and son-in-law both have education degrees from UW. Neither is still in education but they are still here in Wyoming with successful careers they enjoy.

 

[UWYOmillionaire]

US News Ranking:
89 Wyoming
93 Colorado
122 CSU
123 Denver
174 North Dakota State
230 North Dakota
232 Montana
238 South Dakota State
257 South Dakota

But Wyoming sucks so why would anyone want to come here? I’m one of those damned boomers you shits complain about. I too had to leave the state due to my career trajectory. Exiled to Texas for ten years. But when I decided to retire (early thanks to covid) I came back so I guess I am part of the problem of retirees moving to Wyoming. My daughter and son-in-law both have education degrees from UW. Neither is still in education but they are still here in Wyoming with successful careers they enjoy.

I don't put too much stock in these rankings but UW is #222: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-wyoming-3932

UW doesn't have a great reputation, let's just be honest here. That doesn't mean a motivated student can't get a decent education and put themselves on a track to have a successful career, but it's going to be an uphill battle versus going to a more reputable / higher profile university.

The general hatred of the Boomer generation from younger people comes from the fact that they grew up during the most prosperous time in this country's history, and essentially screwed everything up and left the future generations holding the bag. Some of the contempt is overblown, but there is no doubt that Boomers are the most selfish generation in American history, and their decisions have led to a significant degradation in quality of life of younger people. Our federal government is effectively insolvent due to Boomer mismanagement and excessive entitlement spending from Medicare and Social Security.

Whether it's unaffordable housing, inability for young people to build real careers because their Boomer counterparts refuse to retire and hand over the reigns, entangling America in "forever wars", or loss of purchasing power due to inflation from Boomer mismanagement, the Boomers have really led this country down a dark path.

 

[TheRealUW]

US News Ranking:
89 Wyoming
93 Colorado
122 CSU
123 Denver
174 North Dakota State
230 North Dakota
232 Montana
238 South Dakota State
257 South Dakota

But Wyoming sucks so why would anyone want to come here? I’m one of those damned boomers you shits complain about. I too had to leave the state due to my career trajectory. Exiled to Texas for ten years. But when I decided to retire (early thanks to covid) I came back so I guess I am part of the problem of retirees moving to Wyoming. My daughter and son-in-law both have education degrees from UW. Neither is still in education but they are still here in Wyoming with successful careers they enjoy.

Those are not the rankings I see when I look at the US News website. Are the rankings you listed for a specific program?

 

[ZapPoke]

I don't put too much stock in these rankings but UW is #222: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-wyoming-3932

UW doesn't have a great reputation, let's just be honest here. That doesn't mean a motivated student can't get a decent education and put themselves on a track to have a successful career, but it's going to be an uphill battle versus going to a more reputable / higher profile university.

The general hatred of the Boomer generation from younger people comes from the fact that they grew up during the most prosperous time in this country's history, and essentially screwed everything up and left the future generations holding the bag. Some of the contempt is overblown, but there is no doubt that Boomers are the most selfish generation in American history, and their decisions have led to a significant degradation in quality of life of younger people. Our federal government is effectively insolvent due to Boomer mismanagement and excessive entitlement spending from Medicare and Social Security.

Whether it's unaffordable housing, inability for young people to build real careers because their Boomer counterparts refuse to retire and hand over the reigns, entangling America in "forever wars", or loss of purchasing power due to inflation from Boomer mismanagement, the Boomers have really led this country down a dark path.

You have a very distorted understanding of history. Nearly every problem you mention was actually created before my time. Social Security? Way before my time. If I could have invested the money paid into social security I would have a much more comfortable retirement. Medicare? Again, created by the previous generation. Most prosperous time? When I graduated in 1981 the unemployment rate was 7.8%. By the end of 1981 it was 8.5%. When I bought my first house in 1989 the mortgage interest rate was 10.5%. But, yeah we had it so easy. I worked 60 hour weeks as a construction laborer over summers so I could minimize student loans. I lived in a basement apartment that never got above 60 degrees and ate macaroni and cheese and tomato soup. No cushy dorm with a wide selection of food in a cafeteria. But I guess that’s because I am selfish and had it so easy. Every generation has had their share of challenges. It’s just that they weren’t all a bunch of whiny babies.