Reality check on the administration's supposed commitment

[r12]

Well, if neither Burman, Bohl, nor the assistants know what they want and need, then...well...I guess it's just up to the fans to set the budget, do the hiring, and tell them all what to do.

You missed the part where I said that is where a seasoned AD needs to make the correct decision between saving money and investing in athletics. A 3rd party report clearly indicated we are behind in the spending it takes to be successful.

I said Bohl and his staff may not know what it takes to be successful at WYO but Burman should. Rather than trying to save the University money and pull off a bs smoke screen, he should work to invest more into athletics. Do you honestly believe that the failing of our football program is 100% the fault of VK, JG, and DC? I sure don't and neither did a 3rd party review.

Instead of addressing concerns in that review, Burman appeared to have went with the status quo while trying to make it look like he was doing drastic changes. I hope I'm wrong, but this is smelling like the same old same old that hasn't worked for over 10 years.

 

[r12]

It's pretty obvious Burman thinks he can get away with this "Cowboy Tough" PR marketing lingo bullshit. You know what? It seems to be working on the vast majority of Wyoming fans. Oh well.

I know, right? I'm pretty sure we haven't been devoid of toughness but that is the PR stunt that is selling right now. I'll give Burman one thing, he isn't dumb relative to the PR dance and the Wyoming faithful.

Speed and strength kill toughness all day, every day, and by 40+ points on Saturday.

 

[SnowyRange]

You missed the part where I said that is where a seasoned AD needs to make the correct decision between saving money and investing in athletics. A 3rd party report clearly indicated we are behind in the spending it takes to be successful.

I said Bohl and his staff may not know what it takes to be successful at WYO but Burman should. Rather than trying to save the University money and pull off a bs smoke screen, he should work to invest more into athletics. Do you honestly believe that the failing of our football program is 100% the fault of VK, JG, and DC? I sure don't and neither did a 3rd party review.

Instead of addressing concerns in that review, Burman appeared to have went with the status quo while trying to make it look like he was doing drastic changes. I hope I'm wrong, but this is smelling like the same old same old that hasn't worked for over 10 years.

Went with the status quo?

He fires a guy, pays him like $600K to get rid of him.

He hires a good coach, and gave that coach what he wanted.

Maybe they'll hire a Nike designer like the report recommended, produce a video for the bus rides, play more hip hop and less Garth Brooks...but, one thing is for sure, status quo this ain't.

 

[r12]

Went with the status quo?
He fires a guy, pays him like $600K to get rid of him.
He hires a good coach, and gave that coach what he wanted.
Maybe they'll hire a Nike designer like the report recommended, produce a video for the bus rides, play more hip hop and less Garth Brooks...but, one thing is for sure, status quo this ain't.

DD takes off for Houston after unfortunate pool table incident.
WYO's reaction, hire VK to promote Cowboy Tough. VK knows WYO and promotes tough defenses. WYO near the bottom of MWC in spending (assistant salaries, recruiting, etc.).

VK fails miserably. WYO fires him and hires a piano playing man that will promote Cowboy Tough. Will ram the ball down opposing teams and enforce our will. Cowboy Tough will return to Laramie. WYO remains near the bottom of MWC spending (assistant salaries, recruiting, etc.).

JG fails miserably. WYO fires him and hires a tough nosed, all business, offensive genius. He will instill Cowboy toughness AND return the high flying offense from year's past. WYO remains near the bottom of MWC spending (assistant salaries, recruiting, etc.).

DC fails miserably. WYO fires him and hires tough Mid-West guy that is going to instill Cowboy toughness and impose will on opposing teams. WYO acts like they spend more but remain near the bottom of MWC spending (assistant salaries, recruiting, etc.).

Seems pretty status quo to me. Other than replacing the dancing chicken, we haven't done much.

 

[SnowyRange]

DD takes off for Houston after unfortunate pool table incident.
WYO's reaction, hire VK to promote Cowboy Tough. VK knows WYO and promotes tough defenses. WYO near the bottom of MWC in spending (assistant salaries, recruiting, etc.).

VK fails miserably. WYO fires him and hires a piano playing man that will promote Cowboy Tough. Will ram the ball down opposing teams and enforce our will. Cowboy Tough will return to Laramie. WYO remains near the bottom of MWC spending (assistant salaries, recruiting, etc.).

JG fails miserably. WYO fires him and hires a tough nosed, all business, offensive genius. He will instill Cowboy toughness AND return the high flying offense from year's past. WYO remains near the bottom of MWC spending (assistant salaries, recruiting, etc.).

DC fails miserably. WYO fires him and hires tough Mid-West guy that is going to instill Cowboy toughness and impose will on opposing teams. WYO acts like they spend more but remain near the bottom of MWC spending (assistant salaries, recruiting, etc.).

Seems pretty status quo to me. Other than replacing the dancing chicken, we haven't done much.

Welcome to college football.

Every school fires unsuccessful coaches and tries to find the guy who will lead them to the promised land.

You thought it worked some other way?

 

[hithere]

Welcome to college football.

Every school fires unsuccessful coaches and tries to find the guy who will lead them to the promised land.

You thought it worked some other way?

Welcome to the internet! Where condescension, straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks about trivial matters take place on message boards for jerks. From what I remember, this thread was about UW athletics not spending any more on coaches relatively than they have in the last 20 years. And then bellowing "Cowboy Tough" over and over and over, wash, rinse, repeat.

Your position is that Burman and Company did something different?

 

[SnowyRange]

Welcome to the internet! Where condescension, straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks about trivial matters take place on message boards for jerks.

You're being a little hard on him, in all honesty.

Your position is that Burman and Company did something different?

I said what I thought, above. If Bohl's not being given what he wants, that's one thing. Otherwise, I don't quite understand the issue.

 

[hithere]

Welcome to the internet! Where condescension, straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks about trivial matters take place on message boards for jerks.

You're being a little hard on him, in all honesty.

Your position is that Burman and Company did something different?

I said what I thought, above. If Bohl's not being given what he wants, that's one thing. Otherwise, I don't quite understand the issue.

Good job, you're winning at internet.

 

[r12]

You thought it worked some other way?

Yes. If there are issues other than HC, then I assumed a logical decision would be to try to fix those.

Honest question, do you think our only problem is the HC?

 

[r12]

]

Welcome to the internet! Where condescension, straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks about trivial matters take place on message boards for jerks.

Meh, I've been called a lot worse than jerk

 

[SnowyRange]

Yes. If there are issues other than HC, then I assumed a logical decision would be to try to fix those.

Honest question, do you think our only problem is the HC?

I guess the honest answer is that I'm not on the "fire Burman" bandwagon.

He's got a tough job. He has to, just to name a few things, run a clean athletic department, deal with one zillion NCAA rules, supervise the academic/athletic interaction, so that our student-athletes graduate with meaningful degrees, constantly negotiate contracts, fund raise, satisfy boosters and, yes, keep the teams on the field on the right track...all within budget constraints that have been very difficult.

Sometimes I think being an AD at a D1 school is the most difficult job in all of entertainment...as, make no mistake, for the fans this is -- or should be -- just entertainment.

Now, as for success on the field, I'd say he's got all sports in a decent spot (with the exception of golf, which I both think will never change and we shouldn't have in the first place).

Which leaves football. For that, I'm sure Burman would love to wave a magic want and have unlimited funds. But he can't...and I know the Foundation and he fund raise like crazed weasels. Short of that, then, he's got to try to make a good coach hire, give that coach what he can give, support him as he can...then hope the coach and a bunch of 20 year olds manage to score more points than some other coach with his 20 year olds.

So, he hires DC. There's not a fan in this state who thought that was a bad hire. And DC can't pull it off...and I saw no evidence that it was the recruiting budget, or that DC couldn't get assistants he didn't have confidence in. What I saw was DC failing.

And now he's hired another guy. This new guy is well within the parameters of a coach who could be successful here. We'll see...but Burman doesn't have the advantage of seeing in advance. He has to pull the trigger when in his judgment he has the best shot he's going to have.

So, fire Burman now? Not in my book. But is the reality that Burman will be fired if this football coach doesn't pan out? Yep. That's just the way it works, and maybe the way it should work.

 

[COS Cowboy]

That was the original 2008 contract. The extension signed the weekend of the Temple bowl game eliminated all that language. The only real incentives in that contract were:

10 CJC appearances
12 marketing appearances
12 radio show appearances
1 appearance at discretion of the president.
Up to $25k depending on team GPA

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/trib.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/05/2057302d-a13a-55ba-b836-e226293121a2/4f0f63b75ee6f.pdf.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So if I'm reading that right, DC's base salary was $190K and the guarenteed annual compensation was a little over $1 million. When we fired him, all we had to pay to buy out the contract was the base salary time the years remaining. $190K x 3 or $570K. Bohl's base is $300K and guarenteed annual compensation of $450K. I'm assuming that means that if we fire him (or someone hires him away) then the buyout is still base salary times years remaining?

 

[Wyovanian]

Yes. If there are issues other than HC, then I assumed a logical decision would be to try to fix those.

Honest question, do you think our only problem is the HC?

I guess the honest answer is that I'm not on the "fire Burman" bandwagon.

He's got a tough job. He has to, just to name a few things, run a clean athletic department, deal with one zillion NCAA rules, supervise the academic/athletic interaction, so that our student-athletes graduate with meaningful degrees, constantly negotiate contracts, fund raise, satisfy boosters and, yes, keep the teams on the field on the right track...all within budget constraints that have been very difficult.

Sometimes I think being an AD at a D1 school is the most difficult job in all of entertainment...as, make no mistake, for the fans this is -- or should be -- just entertainment.

Now, as for success on the field, I'd say he's got all sports in a decent spot (with the exception of golf, which I both think will never change and we shouldn't have in the first place).

Which leaves football. For that, I'm sure Burman would love to wave a magic want and have unlimited funds. But he can't...and I know the Foundation and he fund raise like crazed weasels. Short of that, then, he's got to try to make a good coach hire, give that coach what he can give, support him as he can...then hope the coach and a bunch of 20 year olds manage to score more points than some other coach with his 20 year olds.

So, he hires DC. There's not a fan in this state who thought that was a bad hire. And DC can't pull it off...and I saw no evidence that it was the recruiting budget, or that DC couldn't get assistants he didn't have confidence in. What I saw was DC failing.

And now he's hired another guy. This new guy is well within the parameters of a coach who could be successful here. We'll see...but Burman doesn't have the advantage of seeing in advance. He has to pull the trigger when in his judgment he has the best shot he's going to have.

So, fire Burman now? Not in my book. But is the reality that Burman will be fired if this football coach doesn't pan out? Yep. That's just the way it works, and maybe the way it should work.

And what, do you suppose, were the roots of that failure?

 

[r12]

I guess the honest answer is that I'm not on the "fire Burman" bandwagon.

He's got a tough job. He has to, just to name a few things, run a clean athletic department, deal with one zillion NCAA rules, supervise the academic/athletic interaction, so that our student-athletes graduate with meaningful degrees, constantly negotiate contracts, fund raise, satisfy boosters and, yes, keep the teams on the field on the right track...all within budget constraints that have been very difficult.

Sometimes I think being an AD at a D1 school is the most difficult job in all of entertainment...as, make no mistake, for the fans this is -- or should be -- just entertainment.

Now, as for success on the field, I'd say he's got all sports in a decent spot (with the exception of golf, which I both think will never change and we shouldn't have in the first place).

Which leaves football. For that, I'm sure Burman would love to wave a magic want and have unlimited funds. But he can't...and I know the Foundation and he fund raise like crazed weasels. Short of that, then, he's got to try to make a good coach hire, give that coach what he can give, support him as he can...then hope the coach and a bunch of 20 year olds manage to score more points than some other coach with his 20 year olds.

So, he hires DC. There's not a fan in this state who thought that was a bad hire. And DC can't pull it off...and I saw no evidence that it was the recruiting budget, or that DC couldn't get assistants he didn't have confidence in. What I saw was DC failing.

And now he's hired another guy. This new guy is well within the parameters of a coach who could be successful here. We'll see...but Burman doesn't have the advantage of seeing in advance. He has to pull the trigger when in his judgment he has the best shot he's going to have.

So, fire Burman now? Not in my book. But is the reality that Burman will be fired if this football coach doesn't pan out? Yep. That's just the way it works, and maybe the way it should work.

And DD (to an extent) and certainly VK and JG? IMO, bad head coaches are a symptom of an underlying disease. Wyoming is in a decent spot relative to our peer institutions but are failing miserably. Perhaps Burman is failing at fund raising. Perhaps he lacks vision and others can sense it.

 

[McPeachy]

Burman is failing at fund raising. He lacks vision and others can sense it.

There you go.

He knows how to do it...work just as hard as you have to...to collect that paycheck and drive that car.

 

[SnowyRange]

And DD (to an extent) and certainly VK and JG? IMO, bad head coaches are a symptom of an underlying disease. Wyoming is in a decent spot relative to our peer institutions but are failing miserably. Perhaps Burman is failing at fund raising. Perhaps he lacks vision and others can sense it.

Somehow it's a little hard to blame Burman for anything DD, VK and JG did, don't you think?

If you're saying that we have had 50 years of averaging .500 football, you're right, and we should do better.

 

[hithere]

And DC can't pull it off...and I saw no evidence that it was the recruiting budget, or that DC couldn't get assistants he didn't have confidence in. What I saw was DC failing.

This is where I disagree with you and think that Burman is not a good Director of Athletics. Not only did he hire Dave Christensen, he extended him after he was named the 2011 MWC Coach of the Year with an overall 18-19 record. He also hired and extended Heath Schroyer.

I know that he's working hard and has a tough job. But if Tom Burman were anywhere else with this history and not a "Wyoming guy", I doubt he'd still be employed in the same capacity. Which is my point. The "Wyoming" culture of accepting mediocrity, and financially clenching up tighter than a bull in fly season in the past 20 years, doesn't seem to be working out in terms of on the field/court success.

Just because right now a coach came in to take over a mess with the lowest parameters of compensation in the conference doesn't make me gush. I don't see a separation from the status quo like you do.

 

[WyoExpat]

Yes. If there are issues other than HC, then I assumed a logical decision would be to try to fix those.

Honest question, do you think our only problem is the HC?

I guess the honest answer is that I'm not on the "fire Burman" bandwagon.

He's got a tough job. He has to, just to name a few things, run a clean athletic department, deal with one zillion NCAA rules, supervise the academic/athletic interaction, so that our student-athletes graduate with meaningful degrees, constantly negotiate contracts, fund raise, satisfy boosters and, yes, keep the teams on the field on the right track...all within budget constraints that have been very difficult.

Sometimes I think being an AD at a D1 school is the most difficult job in all of entertainment...as, make no mistake, for the fans this is -- or should be -- just entertainment.

Now, as for success on the field, I'd say he's got all sports in a decent spot (with the exception of golf, which I both think will never change and we shouldn't have in the first place).

Which leaves football. For that, I'm sure Burman would love to wave a magic want and have unlimited funds. But he can't...and I know the Foundation and he fund raise like crazed weasels. Short of that, then, he's got to try to make a good coach hire, give that coach what he can give, support him as he can...then hope the coach and a bunch of 20 year olds manage to score more points than some other coach with his 20 year olds.

So, he hires DC. There's not a fan in this state who thought that was a bad hire. And DC can't pull it off...and I saw no evidence that it was the recruiting budget, or that DC couldn't get assistants he didn't have confidence in. What I saw was DC failing.

And now he's hired another guy. This new guy is well within the parameters of a coach who could be successful here. We'll see...but Burman doesn't have the advantage of seeing in advance. He has to pull the trigger when in his judgment he has the best shot he's going to have.

So, fire Burman now? Not in my book. But is the reality that Burman will be fired if this football coach doesn't pan out? Yep. That's just the way it works, and maybe the way it should work.

And what, do you suppose, were the roots of that failure?

I remain convinced that the University of Wyoming is similar to a Little League baseball player trying to pitch in the Major Leagues. We want to keep up with the big boys in this game but we are trying to do so from a position of extreme weakness. I think it is a numbers game and every year that Wyoming sends forth another graduating class that is less than half the size sent forth by the high major BCS schools, the gap between the alumni base for those schools and our UW expands.

Our stadium capacity and the population of Laramie also make a difference. According to http://www.gowyo.com/facilities/jonah-field-war-memorial-stadium.html War Memorial's capacity is down to 29,181 people. Compare that capacity to the population of Laramie as of the 2010 census (30,816). When I was in school, I seem to remember that those numbers were reversed with the stadium actually holding 32,000+ people and I think they sold over 33,000 tickets for a CSU game during that time.

Compare that to another college town, Ann Arbor. Michigan is indisputably one of the big boys historically, despite the economic and demographic mess the state is in. According to the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor's website http://www.mgoblue.com/facilities/michigan-stadium.html Michigan stadium was expanded in 2010 to a capacity of 109,901. (Note: the stadium was expanded--not downsized). The City of Ann Arbor had a population of 113,934 at the 2010 census.

In many ways, each of the two schools and programs are very similar. Both are located in the far southeastern corner of their respective states and also slightly west of the largest city in the state. Both Ann Arbor and Laramie are predominately known as college towns and both have stadiums that are only slightly smaller that the population of the whole host town. The difference, however, is in the sheer scale of the local population, local alumni base, job opportunities for graduates, and the size of the local recruiting base. In addition, Wyoming can only reliably sell 15,000+/- tickets to any one game compared to the reliable 100,000+ that Michigan can sell. MIchigan does this while also boasting an academic reputation that Wyoming can only dream of. I would even say that the gap between Michigan and Wyoming is wider on the academic reputation front than on the athletic field.

I think that the reason that Wyoming historically struggles to attain the dominance enjoyed by the major programs boils down to demographics and the money that comes from a larger population base, whether that population is measured in fans, students, alumni, local recruits, or local townfolk. Note, I have not even talked about TV contracts, but they reflect this trend too.

What we are asking for is a coach who consistently outperforms statistical probability. In all probability, we should have the record outcomes we have experienced. I would even go so far as to suggest that if one picks any school at random and must predict what the overall football record over the past 50 years has been for that school, the most intelligent guess would be .500. There are certainly outliers, but in general .500 would be a great guess.

We have advantages to work with at Wyoming in the context of the MWC. However, I will not hold an AD culpable for failing to attain the dominant performance over time that we see at other major programs. The real tests to me are whether the AD responds appropriately to changes in ticket sales and whether the athletic program harms the academic or public reputation of the University. I also expect to see teams compete, but that is ultimately reflected in ticket sales. To me, the travesty of the current AD is that his solution to our inability to sell out games is to downsize seating capacities. That, to me, shows a lack of ambition more than the eventual win-loss record of two football coaches that looked like impressive hires on paper when they were hired. In the end, both coaches performed about as well overall as the data suggests they should have except that each of the last two coaches won bowl games. It had been decades since that happened at U.W. I will take those, enjoy them, and hope for more to come.

 

[SnowyRange]

WyoExpat:

Pretty much right on.

Regarding:

MIchigan does this while also boasting an academic reputation that Wyoming can only dream of. I would even say that the gap between Michigan and Wyoming is wider on the academic reputation front than on the athletic field.

I will add this: those big programs, including Michigan, have silly majors and classes to hide some young men who have no business being in college. We don't do that, nor should we.

 

[Hayduke]

WyoExpat:

Pretty much right on.

Regarding:

MIchigan does this while also boasting an academic reputation that Wyoming can only dream of. I would even say that the gap between Michigan and Wyoming is wider on the academic reputation front than on the athletic field.

I will add this: those big programs, including Michigan, have silly majors and classes to hide some young men who have no business being in college. We don't do that, nor should we.

MIchigan also has 28,000 undergrads. It's easier to have academic programs to hide academically challenged athletes in a very large university.