Linder got tossed.

[LawPoke]

Exactly this. Ike is a bigger problem than Linder or Wyoming can solve. It's not being able to keep Reynolds, Dusell, Oden, Marcus Williams etc around that gets you this kind of roster.

Agree.

DuSell was willing to go to perennial basketball basement dweller Fresno State to get out of here. By all accounts, DuSell is a good dude and good teammate.

Losing the entire team is inexplicable to me other than major problems with the coaching staff’s ability to relate to and motivate players. Linder promises to ‘change’ and then proceeds to: (1) disparage fans for attendance and do nothing himself to help; had (2) throw embarrassing temper tantrums on the court.

Last night you could see the players deflate as Linder left the court. His basketball brilliance and leadership do nothing for them in the locker room. The refs might have it out for him, but he has to understand that and double down on coaching his kids and ignoring the officials. Clearly they don't care one iota what he is barking about. They tune him out - just like I did during my 8 years of officiating junior high, high school and JUCO ball. The most effective coaches were the ones that didn't say a thing...until they did, and then respectfully. It got my attention and focus - and honestly, triggered a call or two because I was hyper focused on their "concern". Then they'd go back to coaching their kids. The men and women that harped from the opening tap got tuned out 2 minutes in and, almost invariably, led to a T or a warning during a time out (and usually an admonition to "just coach their kids").

 

[bladerunnr]

The loss of Ike hurt us - no doubt. It hurt us badly. I don't know that we are ever going to compete with that kind of cash for our top-flight players. That said, it might help, just a smidge, if our coach had a bit better rapport with his players. I know Maldo and Wenzel have defended him...but not many others have done so. Loyalty is a two way street. We could have used the other guys that transferred away this year (X, Reynolds, etc.) but they were not interested in staying.

Exactly this. Ike is a bigger problem than Linder or Wyoming can solve. It's not being able to keep Reynolds, Dusell, Oden, Marcus Williams etc around that gets you this kind of roster.

Marcus Williams was an impact player. But I don't believe keeping any or all of those other guys would have improved our place in the conference this year. Basketball is a game of stars. You need 2 stars and a decent supporting cast. A team full of average players gets you no where. When we had Nance and Adams, we were very good. When we had Ike and Jeffries, we were very good. Ducell, Oden, and Reynolds were average to good players, nothing more. The program will not fail because guys like that leave. If Linder can't make a big splash recruiting, then we can't compete.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Exactly this. Ike is a bigger problem than Linder or Wyoming can solve. It's not being able to keep Reynolds, Dusell, Oden, Marcus Williams etc around that gets you this kind of roster.

Marcus Williams was an impact player. But I don't believe keeping any or all of those other guys would have improved our place in the conference this year. Basketball is a game of stars. You need 2 stars and a decent supporting cast. A team full of average players gets you no where. When we had Nance and Adams, we were very good. When we had Ike and Jeffries, we were very good. Ducell, Oden, and Reynolds were average to good players, nothing more. The program will not fail because guys like that leave. If Linder can't make a big splash recruiting, then we can't compete.

This is hogwash IMO. The program ‘will not fail’ because an entire team leaves and it is only getting players in the door through recruiting that matters. Come on man. You can’t have a program without some sense of stability and buy-in from the players on the roster. Recruiting is meaningless if the player only sticks around for a year or two because they don’t want to continue to play for a dislikable coach.

BTW - Reynolds is averaging 20 points and 5 assists a game for Wisconsin-Green Bay….a team that went from last place last year in the Horizon to a team tied for first place this year. DuSell was Wyoming’s best defender and a guy who could hit clutch shots. Oden was a guy with an inside presence and an ability to grab offensive rebounds with his athleticism. I don’t believe you at all when you say guys like that wouldn’t improve this team.

 

[Itsux2beaewe]

I’m surprised he isn’t tossed more. Sit behind the bench sometime and you will be left shaking your head. He spends every game berating officials from buzzer to buzzer. His demeanor is crap and not encouraging to players IMO.

I get it that there are some times that call for getting after the officials. But this schtick is getting old.

It is part of the game. If you don't work the refs in this fvcked up conference, you are at a disadvantage. The MWC is full of coaches that are forced to work the refs. And NOBODY is a bigger bitcher & whiner than Leon Rice, and we will all get to see that Saturday.

Spot on. Rice is the worst.

 

[Itsux2beaewe]

I just don’t see a lot of hope for the program as far as competing with the top of the conference. Linder’s contract runs through 2027 and I don’t see how we can afford to take the financial hit for a firing this year or next year.

We spent the entire offseason and season getting all of the new players accustomed to each other. But we return so few minutes. Rather than get the underclassmen minutes, we just play all of our senior transfers until they run out of gas. I am sure we bring in a JUCO and a senior NAIA transfer again and just start the whole process over.

Pump the brakes. We're not getting rid of him. Yes, last year was a disaster. We have a few guys coming back next year we can build with (Manyawu, Combs, Kobe, Powell and Oleg) and he'll pick up a few others. Practice time and maturity are as valuable as game minutes.

I agree and I think the Cali 3 made the whole situation worse. It was disruptive. Not only when they left, but before. They were a cancer in the program. Firmly believe that. You can’t build a “team” around that.

Ike knew he was leaving at the beginning of the year. Never intended to play, imo. The injury was nice “cover”.

One kid I really respected was Maldonado, and he could have left…….Linder. He didn’t and actually had loyalty to him. That’s telling to me.

He had no choice but to use the portal. So I don’t get where people are saying he didn’t. Unfortunately they are srs, which was a stop gap for this year.

 

[flyfishwyo]

Marcus Williams was an impact player. But I don't believe keeping any or all of those other guys would have improved our place in the conference this year. Basketball is a game of stars. You need 2 stars and a decent supporting cast. A team full of average players gets you no where. When we had Nance and Adams, we were very good. When we had Ike and Jeffries, we were very good. Ducell, Oden, and Reynolds were average to good players, nothing more. The program will not fail because guys like that leave. If Linder can't make a big splash recruiting, then we can't compete.

This is hogwash IMO. The program ‘will not fail’ because an entire team leaves and it is only getting players in the door through recruiting that matters. Come on man. You can’t have a program without some sense of stability and buy-in from the players on the roster. Recruiting is meaningless if the player only sticks around for a year or two because they don’t want to continue to play for a dislikable coach.

BTW - Reynolds is averaging 20 points and 5 assists a game for Wisconsin-Green Bay….a team that went from last place last year in the Horizon to a team tied for first place this year. DuSell was Wyoming’s best defender and a guy who could hit clutch shots. Oden was a guy with an inside presence and an ability to grab offensive rebounds with his athleticism. I don’t believe you at all when you say guys like that wouldn’t improve this team.

We won 9 games last year in a much weaker conference. How did losing those 3 players hurt us?

 

[flyfishwyo]

Agree.

DuSell was willing to go to perennial basketball basement dweller Fresno State to get out of here. By all accounts, DuSell is a good dude and good teammate.

Losing the entire team is inexplicable to me other than major problems with the coaching staff’s ability to relate to and motivate players. Linder promises to ‘change’ and then proceeds to: (1) disparage fans for attendance and do nothing himself to help; had (2) throw embarrassing temper tantrums on the court.

Last night you could see the players deflate as Linder left the court. His basketball brilliance and leadership do nothing for them in the locker room. The refs might have it out for him, but he has to understand that and double down on coaching his kids and ignoring the officials. Clearly they don't care one iota what he is barking about. They tune him out - just like I did during my 8 years of officiating junior high, high school and JUCO ball. The most effective coaches were the ones that didn't say a thing...until they did, and then respectfully. It got my attention and focus - and honestly, triggered a call or two because I was hyper focused on their "concern". Then they'd go back to coaching their kids. The men and women that harped from the opening tap got tuned out 2 minutes in and, almost invariably, led to a T or a warning during a time out (and usually an admonition to "just coach their kids").

I didn't see the players deflate when Linder went out. It didn't really help the cause, but it sure didn't cost us the game.

Getting on the officials clearly works in the MWC. I'm watching CSU at NM right now and Medved and Petino are all over them. Linder isn't special in that regard.

 

[laxwyo]

I think most of the coaches in the conference are crybabies

none bigger than this guy

 

[LawPoke]

Last night you could see the players deflate as Linder left the court. His basketball brilliance and leadership do nothing for them in the locker room. The refs might have it out for him, but he has to understand that and double down on coaching his kids and ignoring the officials. Clearly they don't care one iota what he is barking about. They tune him out - just like I did during my 8 years of officiating junior high, high school and JUCO ball. The most effective coaches were the ones that didn't say a thing...until they did, and then respectfully. It got my attention and focus - and honestly, triggered a call or two because I was hyper focused on their "concern". Then they'd go back to coaching their kids. The men and women that harped from the opening tap got tuned out 2 minutes in and, almost invariably, led to a T or a warning during a time out (and usually an admonition to "just coach their kids").

I didn't see the players deflate when Linder went out. It didn't really help the cause, but it sure didn't cost us the game.

Getting on the officials clearly works in the MWC. I'm watching CSU at NM right now and Medved and Petino are all over them. Linder isn't special in that regard.

Whether the players were deflated is a subjective call. I can't prove it either way. Neither can you. The reality is that Jeff wasn't on the bench (again) and clearly has irritated the officials to the point that they are willing to toss him at the drop of a hat. Fair or not, they have had enough of his crap, irrespective of what Petino, Medved or that little crapweasel at the Academy may do or not do on the sidelines.

The ultimate question is: are you comfortable and content with where the program is today? Clearly, you are. I am not. You obviously see this year, last year and the future differently than I do. I see last year as a clarion call that Jeff can't relate to his players and runs them off. I see this year as a crappy band aid to fix what he broke last year, that is not doing much to stop the bleeding. I see us hemorrhaging more players next year (to graduation, because his transfers were mostly seniors) and to transfer. Now, a lot of schools will face a similar path - as NIL and the porthole are what they are. I just see Jeff and his crew as even more susceptible to mass exodus because of his Napoleonic personality. Simply put, they don't have to put up with his crap and won't. We saw it last year and will likely see it again this year with certain high performers. He hasn't and won't change. Again, you see him and his staff differently and, at least IMHO, put way too much stock in his basketball IQ and overly discount his personality and inability to retain players, which is how you build a program at a place like Wyoming.

 

[bladerunnr]

I didn't see the players deflate when Linder went out. It didn't really help the cause, but it sure didn't cost us the game.

Getting on the officials clearly works in the MWC. I'm watching CSU at NM right now and Medved and Petino are all over them. Linder isn't special in that regard.

Whether the players were deflated is a subjective call. I can't prove it either way. Neither can you. The reality is that Jeff wasn't on the bench (again) and clearly has irritated the officials to the point that they are willing to toss him at the drop of a hat. Fair or not, they have had enough of his crap, irrespective of what Petino, Medved or that little crapweasel at the Academy may do or not do on the sidelines.

The ultimate question is: are you comfortable and content with where the program is today? Clearly, you are. I am not. You obviously see this year, last year and the future differently than I do. I see last year as a clarion call that Jeff can't relate to his players and runs them off. I see this year as a crappy band aid to fix what he broke last year, that is not doing much to stop the bleeding. I see us hemorrhaging more players next year (to graduation, because his transfers were mostly seniors) and to transfer. Now, a lot of schools will face a similar path - as NIL and the porthole are what they are. I just see Jeff and his crew as even more susceptible to mass exodus because of his Napoleonic personality. Simply put, they don't have to put up with his crap and won't. We saw it last year and will likely see it again this year with certain high performers. He hasn't and won't change. Again, you see him and his staff differently and, at least IMHO, put way too much stock in his basketball IQ and overly discount his personality and inability to retain players, which is how you build a program at a place like Wyoming.

First of all, have players said they left because of Linder's personality? I haven't heard that. Ducell and Oden were in the program for 3 years before they left. I would have thought they would have left sooner if the coach was the main issue. Marcus Williams never said that Linder was why he left.

I think everyone sees that the cupboard will be bare again after this year. I think Linder gets at least one more year to try and right the ship. And what's the alternative? I don't see one. Wyoming isn't seen as a great job and trying to find a diamond in the rough just might lead to another Heath Schroyer. I actually think Linder has gotten a lot out of this group. There isn't a lot talent here but Kot, Griffin, and Walters were pretty good finds to save the program from a season like last year.

Look at Linder's track record. He took UNC, which has a gym about the size of Casper College, and turned it into a perennial 20 win a year team. He got off to a great start here and now it looks a little grim. The MW has turned into a pretty good BB conference so it's a tough task. But his record tells me that he deserves a chance to try.

 

[LawPoke]

Whether the players were deflated is a subjective call. I can't prove it either way. Neither can you. The reality is that Jeff wasn't on the bench (again) and clearly has irritated the officials to the point that they are willing to toss him at the drop of a hat. Fair or not, they have had enough of his crap, irrespective of what Petino, Medved or that little crapweasel at the Academy may do or not do on the sidelines.

The ultimate question is: are you comfortable and content with where the program is today? Clearly, you are. I am not. You obviously see this year, last year and the future differently than I do. I see last year as a clarion call that Jeff can't relate to his players and runs them off. I see this year as a crappy band aid to fix what he broke last year, that is not doing much to stop the bleeding. I see us hemorrhaging more players next year (to graduation, because his transfers were mostly seniors) and to transfer. Now, a lot of schools will face a similar path - as NIL and the porthole are what they are. I just see Jeff and his crew as even more susceptible to mass exodus because of his Napoleonic personality. Simply put, they don't have to put up with his crap and won't. We saw it last year and will likely see it again this year with certain high performers. He hasn't and won't change. Again, you see him and his staff differently and, at least IMHO, put way too much stock in his basketball IQ and overly discount his personality and inability to retain players, which is how you build a program at a place like Wyoming.

First of all, have players said they left because of Linder's personality? I haven't heard that. Ducell and Oden were in the program for 3 years before they left. I would have thought they would have left sooner if the coach was the main issue. Marcus Williams never said that Linder was why he left.

I think everyone sees that the cupboard will be bare again after this year. I think Linder gets at least one more year to try and right the ship. And what's the alternative? I don't see one. Wyoming isn't seen as a great job and trying to find a diamond in the rough just might lead to another Heath Schroyer. I actually think Linder has gotten a lot out of this group. There isn't a lot talent here but Kot, Griffin, and Walters were pretty good finds to save the program from a season like last year.

Look at Linder's track record. He took UNC, which has a gym about the size of Casper College, and turned it into a perennial 20 win a year team. He got off to a great start here and now it looks a little grim. The MW has turned into a pretty good BB conference so it's a tough task. But his record tells me that he deserves a chance to try.

Valid points. Truth is, we don't have an alternative. We are stuck.

It is also true that Linder built UNC. But he did it at a time before NIL and the portal. Those two variables - I would suggest - would have gutted him at UNC. But I hate post hoc, flawed logic, so I will leave it at that.

I will bet that in two seasons, Jeff Linder is getting the hook at UW. In that time, attendance will continue to falter. Our record will be generally similar to what we see today - if not a little worse. Nothing is signaling any sort of change for the better on the horizon. I hope I am wrong. Maybe a recruit will blossom. Maybe Jeff and Co. will find a diamond in the rough in the portal. He has generally proven that he can find serviceable talent - but nothing transformational (and sometimes he has brought in wholly destructive talent). If folks that have watched this story play out before are honest with themselves, they don't see it much differently. That said - your point is absolutely true - we don't have any alternative. The great news is that Wyoming is perfectly content with .500 records - so maybe Jeff is safe after all. Craig Bohl is a god - and he was a career .504 coach at ol' WYO.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

First of all, have players said they left because of Linder's personality? I haven't heard that. Ducell and Oden were in the program for 3 years before they left. I would have thought they would have left sooner if the coach was the main issue. Marcus Williams never said that Linder was why he left.

I think everyone sees that the cupboard will be bare again after this year. I think Linder gets at least one more year to try and right the ship. And what's the alternative? I don't see one. Wyoming isn't seen as a great job and trying to find a diamond in the rough just might lead to another Heath Schroyer. I actually think Linder has gotten a lot out of this group. There isn't a lot talent here but Kot, Griffin, and Walters were pretty good finds to save the program from a season like last year.

Look at Linder's track record. He took UNC, which has a gym about the size of Casper College, and turned it into a perennial 20 win a year team. He got off to a great start here and now it looks a little grim. The MW has turned into a pretty good BB conference so it's a tough task. But his record tells me that he deserves a chance to try.

Valid points. Truth is, we don't have an alternative. We are stuck.

It is also true that Linder built UNC. But he did it at a time before NIL and the portal. Those two variables - I would suggest - would have gutted him at UNC. But I hate post hoc, flawed logic, so I will leave it at that.

I will bet that in two seasons, Jeff Linder is getting the hook at UW. In that time, attendance will continue to falter. Our record will be generally similar to what we see today - if not a little worse. Nothing is signaling any sort of change for the better on the horizon. I hope I am wrong. Maybe a recruit will blossom. Maybe Jeff and Co. will find a diamond in the rough in the portal. He has generally proven that he can find serviceable talent - but nothing transformational (and sometimes he has brought in wholly destructive talent). If folks that have watched this story play out before are honest with themselves, they don't see it much differently. That said - your point is absolutely true - we don't have any alternative. The great news is that Wyoming is perfectly content with .500 records - so maybe Jeff is safe after all. Craig Bohl is a god - and he was a career .504 coach at ol' WYO.

I don’t believe a .500 record in football equates to a .500 record in basketball. There are only roughly 130 FBS football teams. There are 357 total D1 basketball schools (many of which are roughly the size of a high school and have an athletic budget that is 1/10 of Wyomings). I believe the winning percentage expectation in basketball must be higher. That is apples to oranges in my book. Perhaps a comparison of conference only records would be a more fair basis of comparison.

We are .500 in basketball this year and we are counting wins over the likes of South Dakota Mines and Northern New Mexico. If our football team were to play those D2 teams, it would be 80-0.

 

[LawPoke]

Valid points. Truth is, we don't have an alternative. We are stuck.

It is also true that Linder built UNC. But he did it at a time before NIL and the portal. Those two variables - I would suggest - would have gutted him at UNC. But I hate post hoc, flawed logic, so I will leave it at that.

I will bet that in two seasons, Jeff Linder is getting the hook at UW. In that time, attendance will continue to falter. Our record will be generally similar to what we see today - if not a little worse. Nothing is signaling any sort of change for the better on the horizon. I hope I am wrong. Maybe a recruit will blossom. Maybe Jeff and Co. will find a diamond in the rough in the portal. He has generally proven that he can find serviceable talent - but nothing transformational (and sometimes he has brought in wholly destructive talent). If folks that have watched this story play out before are honest with themselves, they don't see it much differently. That said - your point is absolutely true - we don't have any alternative. The great news is that Wyoming is perfectly content with .500 records - so maybe Jeff is safe after all. Craig Bohl is a god - and he was a career .504 coach at ol' WYO.

I don’t believe a .500 record in football equates to a .500 record in basketball. There are only roughly 130 FBS football teams. There are 357 total D1 basketball schools (many of which are roughly the size of a high school and have an athletic budget that is 1/10 of Wyomings). I believe the winning percentage expectation in basketball must be higher. That is apples to oranges in my book. Perhaps a comparison of conference only records would be a more fair basis of comparison.

We are .500 in basketball this year and we are counting wins over the likes of South Dakota Mines and Northern New Mexico. If our football team were to play those D2 teams, it would be 80-0.

Oh, I agree, I'm just suggesting that even mediocrity could save Linder long-term...if he could somehow get there. It isn't like the Cowboy faithful demand championships - we just want an enjoyable trip to Vegas or somewhere else warm, a win or two in the MW Tourney or every other bowl game, and some also-ran tournament (CBI, NIT, or the like) or bowl and you can retire here.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

I don’t believe a .500 record in football equates to a .500 record in basketball. There are only roughly 130 FBS football teams. There are 357 total D1 basketball schools (many of which are roughly the size of a high school and have an athletic budget that is 1/10 of Wyomings). I believe the winning percentage expectation in basketball must be higher. That is apples to oranges in my book. Perhaps a comparison of conference only records would be a more fair basis of comparison.

We are .500 in basketball this year and we are counting wins over the likes of South Dakota Mines and Northern New Mexico. If our football team were to play those D2 teams, it would be 80-0.

Oh, I agree, I'm just suggesting that even mediocrity could save Linder long-term...if he could somehow get there. It isn't like the Cowboy faithful demand championships - we just want an enjoyable trip to Vegas or somewhere else warm, a win or two in the MW Tourney or every other bowl game, and some also-ran tournament (CBI, NIT, or the like) or bowl and you can retire here.

To me - the state of the football program is miles better than the state of the men’s basketball program. Im not sure any MWC team went to a bowl I would have picked over the one Wyoming went to. Maybe the LA Bowl to face UCLA, maybe. We aren’t anywhere close to the NIT in basketball.

Linder is saved by his contract. It isn’t feasible to pay him the buyout for 4 years and bringing in any other coach puts us on a 2 year rebuild minimum as well. Linder is guaranteed 2 more years no matter how many tantrums he throws and how many players say adios. I’m with you, I don’t see how this program under Linder becomes competitive with the top of the conference at all and how the excitement would return to the AA (certainly hope I’m wrong).

 

[LawPoke]

Oh, I agree, I'm just suggesting that even mediocrity could save Linder long-term...if he could somehow get there. It isn't like the Cowboy faithful demand championships - we just want an enjoyable trip to Vegas or somewhere else warm, a win or two in the MW Tourney or every other bowl game, and some also-ran tournament (CBI, NIT, or the like) or bowl and you can retire here.

To me - the state of the football program is miles better than the state of the men’s basketball program. Im not sure any MWC team went to a bowl I would have picked over the one Wyoming went to. Maybe the LA Bowl to face UCLA, maybe. We aren’t anywhere close to the NIT in basketball.

Linder is saved by his contract. It isn’t feasible to pay him the buyout for 4 years and bringing in any other coach puts us on a 2 year rebuild minimum as well. Linder is guaranteed 2 more years no matter how many tantrums he throws and how many players say adios. I’m with you, I don’t see how this program under Linder becomes competitive with the top of the conference at all and how the excitement would return to the AA (certainly hope I’m wrong).

Fair. I actually think that football stands a chance - largely because of how Bohl build the program. I am not a Bohl fan. He frustrated me to no end. But he built a program that CAN be sustainable long-term. And I am actually cautiously optimistic about Sawvel. I am not overly excited about the OC or DC hires and his decision to retain Grant and I think we will miss Giles, but for some reason I think Sawvel might be decent.

 

[LanderPoke]

Exactly this. Ike is a bigger problem than Linder or Wyoming can solve. It's not being able to keep Reynolds, Dusell, Oden, Marcus Williams etc around that gets you this kind of roster.

Marcus Williams was an impact player. But I don't believe keeping any or all of those other guys would have improved our place in the conference this year. Basketball is a game of stars. You need 2 stars and a decent supporting cast. A team full of average players gets you no where. When we had Nance and Adams, we were very good. When we had Ike and Jeffries, we were very good. Ducell, Oden, and Reynolds were average to good players, nothing more. The program will not fail because guys like that leave. If Linder can't make a big splash recruiting, then we can't compete.

I think Marcus Williams and Reynolds would have helped. They would have been good for a 2-3 more conference wins to this team, but I agree with you about Desell, Oden. Those two are replacement level players

 

[stymeman]

Reminds me of Lord Farquard of of Shrek and Little man syndrome

 

[McPeachy]

It is part of the game. If you don't work the refs in this fvcked up conference, you are at a disadvantage. The MWC is full of coaches that are forced to work the refs. And NOBODY is a bigger bitcher & whiner than Leon Rice, and we will all get to see that Saturday.

Spot on. Rice is the worst.

For those of you who went to the game Saturday, hopefully you watched as I did, when Leon started working the refs on the very first Donkie call. That guy is a master at MWC ref manipulation. He was even "warned" to chill on several occasions but never got the T - maybe because of his tenure? Linder likely wouldn't have been given the same courtesy.

 

[307bball]

Spot on. Rice is the worst.

For those of you who went to the game Saturday, hopefully you watched as I did, when Leon started working the refs on the very first Donkie call. That guy is a master at MWC ref manipulation. He was even "warned" to chill on several occasions but never got the T - maybe because of his tenure? Linder likely wouldn't have been given the same courtesy.

Very few refs will give a T without warning. As long as there is a few plays between warnings...the refs will just keep giving warnings. Coaches that get techs either really can't control themselves or want to get them.

Rice is very expressive and annoys the crap out of me with his whining...but I don't think he get's more leeway than the other conference coaches.

 

[LanderPoke]

Rice is the worst. A little weasel. He gets away with more than any other coach imo