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I have one problem with Allen Edwards system, we're becoming Boise State on offense.

Cowboy Junky

Cowboy Junky

Well-known member
It's hard to make threes on the road. That's reality. You don't shoot as well as you do at home.

We just lost road games at UNLV and Fresno because we shot a miserable percentage from the three point line.

The team under Shy, with the exception of last year, was in every game, but when the chips we're on the line, it wasn't a three ball that usually bailed us out. Now, the three ball is such a big part of our offense, when it goes away, we struggle to score. It reminds me of the Boise teams under Leon Rice. They aren't as tough on the road or on a neutral court.

I understand we're a young team. Most of the guys weren't recruited to an offense that spreads the floor, takes the first available good shot, and runs at every opportunity. They were recruited to Shy's grind the clock down offense.

We need to attack the rack more. That may be a part of the final plan, when we have more guys that can take the ball to the hole.

I know help is on the way with Buddha, Naires, Anthony, and the two Hunters.

This years team needs to figure out a way to become less dependent on the three ball. Under Shy we could go 0-12 and not get blown out, because we drained the clock and made every possession of theirs incredibly difficult to score. Our defense is still strong, but it doesn't utilize the clock, and it does take a lot more chances. We can't just stay in games off of defense when we're hoisting up shots/turnovers at a quicker pace. We could if we could out score people and we can't out score people when we aren't burying threes this year.

I don't see a solution to this and I really hope we don't become paper tigers like Boise, because we can't shoot on the road. This doesn't look like it's going to change this year unless we can get to the rack more often and stop depending on the three ball.

Is anyone else concerned that we're turning into a Boise style of team that is WAY TO DEPENDENT on the three point shot?
 
Cowboy Junky said:
It's hard to make threes on the road. That's reality. You don't shoot as well as you do at home.

We just lost road games at UNLV and Fresno because we shot a miserable percentage from the three point line.

The team under Shy, with the exception of last year, was in every game, but when the chips we're on the line, it wasn't a three ball that usually bailed us out. Now, the three ball is such a big part of our offense, when it goes away, we struggle to score. It reminds me of the Boise teams under Leon Rice. They aren't as tough on the road or on a neutral court.

I understand we're a young team. Most of the guys weren't recruited to an offense that spreads the floor, takes the first available good shot, and runs at every opportunity. They were recruited to Shy's grind the clock down offense.

We need to attack the rack more. That may be a part of the final plan, when we have more guys that can take the ball to the hole.

I know help is on the way with Buddha, Naires, Anthony, and the two Hunters.

This years team needs to figure out a way to become less dependent on the three ball. Under Shy we could go 0-12 and not get blown out, because we drained the clock and made every possession of theirs incredibly difficult to score. Our defense is still strong, but it doesn't utilize the clock, and it does take a lot more chances. We can't just stay in games off of defense when we're hoisting up shots/turnovers at a quicker pace. We could if we could out score people and we can't out score people when we aren't burying threes this year.

I don't see a solution to this and I really hope we don't become paper tigers like Boise, because we can't shoot on the road. This doesn't look like it's going to change this year unless we can get to the rack more often and stop depending on the three ball.

Is anyone else concerned that we're turning into a Boise style of team that is WAY TO DEPENDENT on the three point shot?
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying just disagree with it. The team is still partially playing Shyatt style of Basketball with shots but moving towards Edwards style with pace of play.

It's on the players to start attacking the paint more and quit selling out to the three. Transition years from two different styles of play will always be tough.


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We need to improve some areas to grind out road wins.

We we're competitive in almost every game under Shy. We're still competitive in every game, but down the stretch the buckets aren't coming this year.

I think a lot of that is youth. A lot of that is getting familiar with a new system. We don't have much experience on the road yet this year. It will improve.

I understand that.

Still, I'm interested to see where the points are going to come from on the road, in the stretch of games. Mostly, we've been keeping ourselves in games at the free throw line and by getting to the rack. The three ball has been non-existent. That's not going to change much on the road. The three ball will come, but not as often as at home. I know our young team hasn't had a ton of road experience yet, but we've got to start hitting our shots or taking care of the ball, and neither is happening down the stretch of road games. We're missing threes and turning the ball over. You can't win games on the road doing BOTH. Usually you can't win conference road games doing either.

The faster pace of the offense leads to more turnovers. We have to value the ball.

That's why JJ doesn't start. He turns it over too much. JJ needs to start taking care of the rock. He's a sophomore now, and he needs to learn like Josh Adams did. He needs to keep attacking the basket. That's where we need him to use his fouls and turnovers: at the rim. He needs to learn that we'll take the turnovers going to the rim. Those are acceptable. Aggressive turnovers attacking the rim are fine. What we can't have are turnovers in the passing game and the ball handling away from the basket. Be aggressive when going to the rim. Be more conservative making the outlet pass. Be more conservative with the ball in the back court.

Something has to change or we won't win on the road. We either need to stop turning the ball over or score more points. I'm not worried about the threes. I know that will be sporadic on the road. That means we need to attack the rim more. It means we need to stop turning the ball over. I'm not worried as much about the glass or the defensive stops, because for the most part, we've been getting those. At some point the three balls WILL come, but the team doesn't even need to worry about that. They need to play better defense, value ball possession, and ATTACK THE RIM.

If we want to win conference road games we need to get to the rim more. We need to stop turning it over. We need to crank up the defensive intensity.

Just some thoughts.
 
We're in a new system and its going to take time to figure it out. From top (coaching staff) to bottom (the players), the squad has to find the balance. A lot of dudes on this squad can take it to the rack and a lot of dudes on this squad can drill 3's. Finding the right tempos and attacking attitudes for each game situation is gonna come for this squad. I like our system, part of the problem has been finding our identity within it. If the 3 ball is falling they still need to look to go to the rack just to keep the other team on their toes and get them in foul trouble. It's all just timing with personnel.

I know our sorta standard Wyonation bitching/cooler talk is going on after those two very disappointing showings. As always there's actually plenty to be said on all sides here that makes sense to me. Personally I'm not gonna be too upset with Edwards until he's given proper time to fail or succeed. Is this team already playing above expectations?? I'd say yes, but we're seeing some of the realities of who they were heading in too. It's a battle to be mid to top tier in the league every year and I'm happy that I think we're in that discussion.

IMPORTANT NOTE- Louis Adams is clearly not 100%. Louis Adams looks to be and has always looked like a top 3 player on this squad. I believe his ability to score, create, handle the rock, and play solid D is a HUGE part to the team's success this year. We're a different team with him in the power lineups. Try not to read too much into our struggles without him. He's the kind of player that makes space for the JMcMAN's and Gorski's. They need him healthy to keep the engine running full steam.
 
A few comments:

1. Reliance on the 3-point shot is an issue, but I am not sure it is an Allen Edwards vs. Larry Shyatt issue. Last year, we actually had the highest ratio of 3 PT Attempts to FG Attempts in the country and the 3rd highest percentage of points from 3-pointers. Both of those are down a little bit this year, but still really high. I never like to see such an extreme reliance on any one type of scoring, so it is an issue, but I think it is more of a personnel (aka recruiting) issue than a coaching issue. Like last year, we don't have any offensive post presence and when Louis Adams is out we only have one perimeter player (James) that can attack off the bounce. Last year we had Josh Adams. When we have to play Gorski, LIeberman, Kelley, JMac, and Herndon significant minutes we are going to shoot a lot of 3's because none of those guys are big threats in other ways (JMac can generate some stuff going to the rim, but it is really predicated on guys running out on him as a shooter and he mostly makes a straightline for the basket).

2. If Allen Edwards turns UW into Leon Rice era Boise he will have my eternal appreciation and respect. You make it sound like it would be a bad thing to be Leon Rice era Boise. Under Rice, BSU has 4 consecutive 20 win seasons (soon to be 5) with all of those seasons being .500 or better in MWC play. During that time frame, they have two at-large NCAA bids and one shared regular season title. We haven't won a regular season title or earned an at-large in 15 years. If Edwards does either of those things he will likely earn himself a high major job (which Rice will probably take after this year or next himself). Look, I know their fans are clueless douche bags, but that doesn't make Rice a bad coach. He currently has BSU at 4-0, first place in the MWC, with 2 road wins. Edwards lost to UNLV, Rice had them just about doubled up by half time and cruised home from there.




My main concern in terms of Edwards vs. Shyatt is less about the perimeter shooting and more about the lack of execution in the half court. We have some turnovers as we learn to push in transition and I can live with that, but most of our turnovers occur in the half court and many of them are simply inexcusable. Beyond that, I just don't see the crispness of movement or much of a plan in the halfcourt a lot of times. I am not saying we need to run a set play every time down, but I would like to see more structure. I just think at Wyoming, we will never be the most talented team in the league. We need to win on execution. Not seeing that right now. That UNLV loss was atrocious. Fresno is no big deal, I know they lost to SJSU on the road, but FSU isn't going to lose many at home. Can't afford sloppy losses to bad teams like the losses at Pacific and UNLV. Those are problematic.
 
The biggest problem with this program going to the next level is the interior play is weak overall. It does not help matters any when the team lacks a solid PG.

Interior play:

Dalton - Has emerged as the greatest interior strength.
Herndon - Playing his best ball for UW yet. Has trouble with tougher teams. He is "big lite".
Naughton - Has a good game against weak opponents but continues struggling and sees limited PT.
Barnes - Another Shyatt big man waste of a roster spot much like Sellers.
Moemeka - Has the physical attributes. The redshirt year has not shown much so far.

The only players who can take the ball into traffic and finish plays at the rim are James and Adams. They are erratic at times and time will tell how they develop. Everyone else either has to have a pretty clear lane to take the ball inside or has to shoot from beyond the arc. Take McNanamen for example, he looked more stout playing with Josh Adams because teams would have to collapse on Adams leaving McNanamen open. Notice that teams with more athletic players stay on McNanamen. That of course leaves a Aka Gorski or Liebermen open, but neither of those players will be difference makers in the long run.

Bottom line - it does not matter if the scores are "closer" or UW is not getting "blown out". The simple fact is that while the program is in better shape APR wise, there has only been one season in the MWC since 2002 where UW finished above .500. Shyatt may be a basketball god to some and highly admired, but he was 46-52 in 5 seasons in the MWC and his best finish was a tie for 4th and winning the conference tourney. One decent season out of 5 and the program continues to struggle to gain a grasp at the top half of the MWC. IMO - he wasted opportunities to add more depth with the great players Nance, Cook and Adams. It was no secret that Nance took this team to another level (which was above .500 in conference play), but without Nance this team competed for the bottom half of the league.

This year is another year in the "building process". I look forward to seeing the roster for 2017-18 in action. Another year of birthdays and some added strengths already on the roster and the potential of the newly signed Mack, Maldanado and Thompson. I like the idea of a team that will go for the rebound, run the ball and not wait to take a crappy shot with 2 seconds left.

Waiting - it is a Wyoming thing. There is a long way to go yet this year, but unless a miracle occurs there just are not the right pieces ready to takes us to the next level. I hope I am wrong, but this could be another outcome like last year 7-11.
 
This is what bball is evolving to and like the old saying is Live by the 3 die by it as well. Hate to say it but the postit up down low just doesn't cut it anymore, we better be prepared this week as Nevada can hit from anywhere they are scary good, Utah St glad it's Jalen Moore's senior year!! we should get that one, Nevada, not so sure(even at home)
 
Remember: the game changed a lot when the shot clock went from 35 to 30 seconds. I think taking the open look when it's there is the right way to go. It's not like we have Reggie Slater down in the post. We really don't have a decent post player on the entire team.
It's lack of execution that 's hurting us, not the strategy. Good shooters make shots - maybe they shoot a lower percentage on the road, but not the bricks we've been launching.
 
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