joshvanklomp
Well-known member
DVDA said:
This team is playing at a slightly faster tempo than last year. It absolutely has an effect.
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Cowboy Basketball Productivity Stats
- Thread starter POKE FAN
- Start date
This team is playing at a slightly faster tempo than last year. It absolutely has an effect.
calpoke25
Well-known member
joshvanklomp said:
Just stop with the irrational defense. This isn't an 82 game NBA season, nor do college players play the kind of 4 games in 5 nights deal that happens to an NBA team from time to time. That argument does not justify James playing literally less than half the minutes of other top MW players. I can see not playing James 36 minutes a game, he is a sophomore and we do have a relatively deep rotation. What I can't see is him playing 18 minutes (less than half the game) and Lieberman/Kelley playing a combined 32 minutes (or more than 3/4 the game).
You only have 200 minutes a game to give out. 80 of them go to Herndon/Dalton/Naughton. That leaves 120 minutes to go around to wings and guards.
calpoke25
Well-known member
Our starters against New Mexico played a combined 135 minutes and attempted a grand total of 2 free throws. That is indicative of a team that really struggles to penetrate the defense, get to the rim and draw a foul. Gorski 32 minutes played, 12 shot attempts but zero free throws. Meanwhile Dalton and James in only 45 minutes attempted 9 free throws.
LanderPoke
Well-known member
I doubt it.joshvanklomp said:
joshvanklomp said:
Considering we have a guy playing 34 mpg... but let me guess, he's playing bad because the poor kid has dead legs from too many minutes. The coaches must not realize your arguments only apply to the two best players and not the ones who aren't helping the team.
ItSucksToBeACSURam
Well-known member
joshvanklomp said:
So Edwards change of style is a good excuse for their "dead legs" but he doesn't get any of the blame for not developing and implementing a regiment to get these players in shape in the pre-season? You can't have it both ways.
POKE FAN
Well-known member
Concerning the minutes comparison above, I forgot to note that two teams (FSU and UNM) have played eight games through four weeks, while SDSU (no data-split available) has only played six. HOWEVER, even when you adjust for that, the difference in minutes played with other top players is still very noticeable.POKE FAN said:
POKE FAN
Well-known member
Yes, it does. In order to give this team the best chance against good MWC competition, Dalton and James need to see the floor more. In my eyes, Dalton should be averaging AT LEAST as many minutes per game as Herndon. Say what you will about TOs, but Justin and Hayden make things happen when they're on the court. A definite "net positive" for the team in most instances.CowboyJoe said:
Wyo2dal
Well-known member
DVDA said:
Are you kidding me? Josh had a number of games he played so many minutes his jump shot was very far off because he didn't have the same lift.
I can't even begin to name the games we lost when Nance was still here because being over played and being exhausted at the end of games.
If this was the slow paced Shyatt offense I might agree to a small degree but as long as we play this run and gun pace minutes are fine. Time on the court is definitely not what is causing our losses.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
FarmerPoke
Well-known member
Looking at some advanced stats this morning and considering only the 8 conference games the pokes have played.......
For those knocking JJ for his turnovers, in conference play he has the highest usage rate on the team BY FAR at 31.8% while carrying a turnover rate of 13.6%. Now by no means am I saying that is elite...... but lets compare......
Jeremy Lieberman..... whopping 10.2% usage rate, yet manages to have a turnover rate of 25%
Cody Kelley........... 17.9% usage rate, turnover rate 19.8%.
So...... JJ needs to be benched for his turnovers while there are other players on the floor who can freely turn the ball over at will. JJ touches the ball more than any player on the floor, as he should.... HE IS OUR BEST PLAYER PEOPLE!!!! If you adjust his usage rate down to be comparable to any other player on the team...... he has the LOWEST turnover rate on the team.... that's incredible.
At this juncture anyone who can possibly justify JJ sitting because of whatever reasons they pull out of the air is straight up delusional.
I will give some concessions on Dalton because his turnover rate is the 2nd highest on the team behind Liebs, and needs to be cut down, but yet he still has triple the usage rate of Liebs, and in spite of the high turnover rate, Dalton has the highest Player Efficiency Rating and is responsible for more win shares than any other player during conference play so I can live with his turnovers.
I don't like to make NBA comparisons, because the NBA is a completely different game, and in some aspects a bit of a joke, but to help make a point.... the top 5 players in total turnovers in the NBA are James Harden, Russell Westbrook, John Wall, Lebron James, and Demarcus Cousins. Steph Curry is 7th. I guess all those players should ride the pine til they learn to take care of the ball eh? All Stars across the board, and once again if you adjust for usage rates, their turnover numbers are very good.
This whole vendetta against JJ has got to stop because it's completely asinine and pointless. Someone..... ANYONE.... find me any number, anywhere that truly justifies JJ playing the fewest minutes of any comparable player in the conference, and we can have a reasonable discussion, but til then, the fact that James belongs on the floor more than any player on the team can't be disputed. Apparently there's a fantasy in the minds of the coaches that would say otherwise, however
Side note........ during conference play, Jmac has the lowest Player Efficiency Rating on the team, Lowest True shooting and Effective field goal percentages on the team, 2nd HIGHEST 3 point attempt rate, and is the only player other than Barnes, that has net NEGATIVE in conference win shares!! Yet this justifies Jmac playing 80 more total minutes in conference than JJ, or 10 more minutes per game, or 2 entire games worth of playing time!!!! COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY ASININE!!!!!!!!!!! :tickedoff:
:End of rant
For those knocking JJ for his turnovers, in conference play he has the highest usage rate on the team BY FAR at 31.8% while carrying a turnover rate of 13.6%. Now by no means am I saying that is elite...... but lets compare......
Jeremy Lieberman..... whopping 10.2% usage rate, yet manages to have a turnover rate of 25%
Cody Kelley........... 17.9% usage rate, turnover rate 19.8%.
So...... JJ needs to be benched for his turnovers while there are other players on the floor who can freely turn the ball over at will. JJ touches the ball more than any player on the floor, as he should.... HE IS OUR BEST PLAYER PEOPLE!!!! If you adjust his usage rate down to be comparable to any other player on the team...... he has the LOWEST turnover rate on the team.... that's incredible.
At this juncture anyone who can possibly justify JJ sitting because of whatever reasons they pull out of the air is straight up delusional.
I will give some concessions on Dalton because his turnover rate is the 2nd highest on the team behind Liebs, and needs to be cut down, but yet he still has triple the usage rate of Liebs, and in spite of the high turnover rate, Dalton has the highest Player Efficiency Rating and is responsible for more win shares than any other player during conference play so I can live with his turnovers.
I don't like to make NBA comparisons, because the NBA is a completely different game, and in some aspects a bit of a joke, but to help make a point.... the top 5 players in total turnovers in the NBA are James Harden, Russell Westbrook, John Wall, Lebron James, and Demarcus Cousins. Steph Curry is 7th. I guess all those players should ride the pine til they learn to take care of the ball eh? All Stars across the board, and once again if you adjust for usage rates, their turnover numbers are very good.
This whole vendetta against JJ has got to stop because it's completely asinine and pointless. Someone..... ANYONE.... find me any number, anywhere that truly justifies JJ playing the fewest minutes of any comparable player in the conference, and we can have a reasonable discussion, but til then, the fact that James belongs on the floor more than any player on the team can't be disputed. Apparently there's a fantasy in the minds of the coaches that would say otherwise, however
Side note........ during conference play, Jmac has the lowest Player Efficiency Rating on the team, Lowest True shooting and Effective field goal percentages on the team, 2nd HIGHEST 3 point attempt rate, and is the only player other than Barnes, that has net NEGATIVE in conference win shares!! Yet this justifies Jmac playing 80 more total minutes in conference than JJ, or 10 more minutes per game, or 2 entire games worth of playing time!!!! COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY ASININE!!!!!!!!!!! :tickedoff:
:End of rant
LanderPoke
Well-known member
FrmerPoke - Post of the Century! mic drop. end of discussion. I'm with you 100%. JJ is a remarkable player and should be playing 30-35 min a game. I've been saying this since last year.
Here's looking at you, DDVA and Wyo2Dal
Here's looking at you, DDVA and Wyo2Dal
FarmerPoke said:Looking at some advanced stats this morning and considering only the 8 conference games the pokes have played.......
For those knocking JJ for his turnovers, in conference play he has the highest usage rate on the team BY FAR at 31.8% while carrying a turnover rate of 13.6%. Now by no means am I saying that is elite...... but lets compare......
Jeremy Lieberman..... whopping 10.2% usage rate, yet manages to have a turnover rate of 25%
Cody Kelley........... 17.9% usage rate, turnover rate 19.8%.
So...... JJ needs to be benched for his turnovers while there are other players on the floor who can freely turn the ball over at will. JJ touches the ball more than any player on the floor, as he should.... HE IS OUR BEST PLAYER PEOPLE!!!! If you adjust his usage rate down to be comparable to any other player on the team...... he has the LOWEST turnover rate on the team.... that's incredible.
At this juncture anyone who can possibly justify JJ sitting because of whatever reasons they pull out of the air is straight up delusional.
I will give some concessions on Dalton because his turnover rate is the 2nd highest on the team behind Liebs, and needs to be cut down, but yet he still has triple the usage rate of Liebs, and in spite of the high turnover rate, Dalton has the highest Player Efficiency Rating and is responsible for more win shares than any other player during conference play so I can live with his turnovers.
I don't like to make NBA comparisons, because the NBA is a completely different game, and in some aspects a bit of a joke, but to help make a point.... the top 5 players in total turnovers in the NBA are James Harden, Russell Westbrook, John Wall, Lebron James, and Demarcus Cousins. Steph Curry is 7th. I guess all those players should ride the pine til they learn to take care of the ball eh? All Stars across the board, and once again if you adjust for usage rates, their turnover numbers are very good.
This whole vendetta against JJ has got to stop because it's completely asinine and pointless. Someone..... ANYONE.... find me any number, anywhere that truly justifies JJ playing the fewest minutes of any comparable player in the conference, and we can have a reasonable discussion, but til then, the fact that James belongs on the floor more than any player on the team can't be disputed. Apparently there's a fantasy in the minds of the coaches that would say otherwise, however
Side note........ during conference play, Jmac has the lowest Player Efficiency Rating on the team, Lowest True shooting and Effective field goal percentages on the team, 2nd HIGHEST 3 point attempt rate, and is the only player other than Barnes, that has net NEGATIVE in conference win shares!! Yet this justifies Jmac playing 80 more total minutes in conference than JJ, or 10 more minutes per game, or 2 entire games worth of playing time!!!! COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY ASININE!!!!!!!!!!! :tickedoff:
:End of rant
This is an excellent post. James obviously needs to improve all around, but he clearly is the best player on the team and deserves more minutes.
ItSucksToBeACSURam
Well-known member
FarmerPoke said:Looking at some advanced stats this morning and considering only the 8 conference games the pokes have played.......
For those knocking JJ for his turnovers, in conference play he has the highest usage rate on the team BY FAR at 31.8% while carrying a turnover rate of 13.6%. Now by no means am I saying that is elite...... but lets compare......
Jeremy Lieberman..... whopping 10.2% usage rate, yet manages to have a turnover rate of 25%
Cody Kelley........... 17.9% usage rate, turnover rate 19.8%.
So...... JJ needs to be benched for his turnovers while there are other players on the floor who can freely turn the ball over at will. JJ touches the ball more than any player on the floor, as he should.... HE IS OUR BEST PLAYER PEOPLE!!!! If you adjust his usage rate down to be comparable to any other player on the team...... he has the LOWEST turnover rate on the team.... that's incredible.
At this juncture anyone who can possibly justify JJ sitting because of whatever reasons they pull out of the air is straight up delusional.
I will give some concessions on Dalton because his turnover rate is the 2nd highest on the team behind Liebs, and needs to be cut down, but yet he still has triple the usage rate of Liebs, and in spite of the high turnover rate, Dalton has the highest Player Efficiency Rating and is responsible for more win shares than any other player during conference play so I can live with his turnovers.
I don't like to make NBA comparisons, because the NBA is a completely different game, and in some aspects a bit of a joke, but to help make a point.... the top 5 players in total turnovers in the NBA are James Harden, Russell Westbrook, John Wall, Lebron James, and Demarcus Cousins. Steph Curry is 7th. I guess all those players should ride the pine til they learn to take care of the ball eh? All Stars across the board, and once again if you adjust for usage rates, their turnover numbers are very good.
This whole vendetta against JJ has got to stop because it's completely asinine and pointless. Someone..... ANYONE.... find me any number, anywhere that truly justifies JJ playing the fewest minutes of any comparable player in the conference, and we can have a reasonable discussion, but til then, the fact that James belongs on the floor more than any player on the team can't be disputed. Apparently there's a fantasy in the minds of the coaches that would say otherwise, however
Side note........ during conference play, Jmac has the lowest Player Efficiency Rating on the team, Lowest True shooting and Effective field goal percentages on the team, 2nd HIGHEST 3 point attempt rate, and is the only player other than Barnes, that has net NEGATIVE in conference win shares!! Yet this justifies Jmac playing 80 more total minutes in conference than JJ, or 10 more minutes per game, or 2 entire games worth of playing time!!!! COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY ASININE!!!!!!!!!!! :tickedoff:
:End of rant
FarmerPoke, forming a coherent, stat laden argument won't get you anywhere with some...
This is a fantastic post. There is no doubt James should see the lions share of the minutes. FINE. Don't start him, but sub him in at 4 minutes and let him play until half time. Same in the second half. THEre is no reason he doesn't average 32+ minutes a game. Same with Dalton. Adams should be averaging 25+ as well. There were times in the game last night that even the announcers were wondering why Adams was on the bench the last 6 minutes of the game when he was absolutely a spark and was gashing their Defense for pretty easy opportunities.
BUT WHAT THE HELL DO ANY OF US KNOW!?!? JVK and Edwards are smarter than all of us.
POKE FAN
Well-known member
These on-line broadcasts really make me miss the old Mtn network. The camera work and production in that SJSU-WYO game last week was beyond annoying and amateurish. We use to see nearly all MWC conference games (outside national broadcasts) on the mtn. Now, I'm pretty positive I see more WCC and Big East hoops broadcast by my cable provider than MWC action.cali2wyo said:
ItSucksToBeACSURam
Well-known member
cali2wyo said:
That doesn't mean that they didn't recognize that he was a spark for us and was providing + minutes... That doesn't take a Hall-of-Famer to see....
FarmerPoke
Well-known member
ItSucksToBeACSURam said:
Adams not playing down the stretch last night was definitely a massive head scratcher.
Wyo2dal
Well-known member
LanderPoke said:
I find it absolutely hilarious that none of you can let it go.
I completely understand the offense Edwards is running and agree with the most part on time played. I do feel Adams has earned upwards of 15-20 minutes instead of the lower time he is getting but once again not my team.
Just because I like and agree with the fresh players playing at a frantic pace doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong it simply means we're entitled to our own opinion.
Which is exactly why I said I'll agree to disagree and that is my same thought and it's not going to change no matter how many jabs you take at my opinion.
I specifically commented on your knowledge about Basketball because all you can see is minutes played and you ignore everything else and seem to actually think that our losses are based on the time Dalton and James plays.
Our losses and lack of ability to close games out is 100% mental and maturity of the players and their inability to forget about what happened the previous play.
With maturity will come more wins and less mental mistakes and then everyone that thinks Dalton and James need more time will be happy or they will just have to suffer.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
LanderPoke
Well-known member
I still don't know how you (or anyone) can watch the games, look at the stats, read the posts, specifically read Farmer's rant and still come to the conclusion that JJ and Dalton shouldn't be on the court every possible minute they can. Don't know how anyone wouldn't think Edwards shouldn't tailor his rotation specifically for the purpose of get getting them strategic rest so they can play max minutes. This would be like Bohl sitting Josh Allen for one-two serious a game because he doesn't want him to get worn down, a football analogy since you seem like more of a football guy.Wyo2dal said:
Your argument is unquantifiable stuff about mental mistakes, dead legs and maturity when it's proven that JJ specifically has the lowest TO rate considering usage. More good things happen when Dalton and JJ are on the court than any other players by a mile. Is it weird to think that we've lost close games because they didn't play as much as they could have? OK, if you say so.
Even more crazy is that players of similar caliber in the MWC (proven by stats) play wayyyyyyy more than JJ and Dalton. Our coach must be on the cutting edge of some revolutionary stuff that says holding out your best players is advantageous. A strategy that literally no other coach employs.
You are right, we're entitled to our own opinions. And the one guy that matters agrees with you - Coach Edwards
