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An uncomfortable topic...

R

ragtimejoe1

Well-known member
We've all said our due about upper level administration problems and everything else. So, without rehashing all the things that are wrong, I am honestly starting to wonder about a quote I read back in the Joe Glenn era. I don't remember what paper it was in or who Joe was talking to, but the question was "why can't you win at WYO" the response was essentially, "nobody knows, but that is just the way it is".

As WYO fans we point to a year here or there as evidence that success can be built in Laramie and ignore the numerous years of failure.

Are we really just swinging and missing on coaches? Can WYO have SUSTAINED success in men's bball and/or football?

For me, the next 2 years are critical. If Bohl can't do this here, then I'll firmly question if it can be done. If Shyatt's ceiling was last year, then the prospects of building a power at WYO are bleak.

So, why can't you build a winning program at WYO or can you? Does a combination of all the limitations prevent the possibility of ever having sustained success?
 
Good post Ragtime. I have some thoughts on the topic, certainly.

A few...

I think some of this falls on being a coach of the 80's or 90's...meaning "what worked then, will work now"...and that simply is not the case. Wyoming hasn't changed with the times (go figure - really about much). Wyoming athletics really still has the same vision it's had since 1985. Things don't work (and kids don't respond) to ideals, objectives, and culture from that era - in large part.
 
Legalize pot in the state. Then the athletes will flock to Laramie. They may not bring more wins, but with the legalization, 80% of the fans won't give a damn.
 
I've said it a hundred times the football program won't find sustained success at the FBS level and I get crucified for it.
 
When June Jones was at UH, fans knew how the system worked. The Run & Shoot offense took time to digest for a new QB, and UH can't recruit at a high level and never will...so everyone was well aware the ceiling for the program was 4-5 wins the QBs Freshman/Sophomore year, 7-8 his Junior year, 9+ his Senior year. And then the following year it's back to the bottom rebuilding.

That's as close to "sustained success" as UH can get to. I think Wyoming is of a similar mold. I think Wyoming either has or will eventually find a coach who can win, but this will never a program reeling off 9+ wins annually Boise State style with no hiccups.

So it really comes down to your personal definition of success. For me, Wyoming absolutely can reach the UH June Jones era threshold, and soon. Decent most of the time with a dash of occasional greatness. But if you're holding out for consistent dominance (which frankly, UW has never done)...that ship IMO sailed long ago.

But I do understand the "it's not you, it's us" sentiment. It might be true, but Wyo cannot afford to think like that.

That's the real question tho...what do you want from Wyoming football?
 
SDPokeFan said:
I've said it a hundred times the football program won't find sustained success at the FBS level and I get crucified for it.
Click to expand...
And justly so. You are advocating capitulation and failure. Your opinion is shaped by a lack of clear vision and alignment to mission. UW Athletics has failed you, as a fan, and so your notion of fan-dom has been adjusted down to the failure.
 
I think a good chunk of the problem is we have enough unique issues surrounding us that you can't just look at another university with div 1 athletics and say 'lets do what they are doing' and become successful.

In the 60's, Eaton came up with ways to recruit smaller d-line and developed techniques that made them very competitive.

In the 70's, we had a few big name coaches come through. They expanded WMS and built facilities.

The 80's and 90's, they focused on running systems that most teams don't face often (during that period anyways). They found farm kids from the sticks that wanted to play football and developed them.

Today - the only way someone will win is to take a look at the resources they have and come up with a plan that will work at Wyoming - and probably not many other places. Seems like the NDSU coach had similar problems in Fargo - so hopefully he can mold and customize his model to what works here.

Know your system, know your staff, know your recruits, know your administration, and know your fan's and you should be able to come up with a way to do it - if you have enough time before getting canned.
 
Yup, there's one simple formula. You guys ever read Lombardi's book. I look at him like the military looks at sun zu.

Lombardi perfected his system. What it boils down to is creating mismatches where "YOU", not the other team, wants them to be. Green bays toss sweep didn't require huge lineman, didn't require blazing speed, or the best athletes on the field. It requires willpower and constitution, and a knowledge from the players at exactly what is expected. Lombardi kicked ass.

It's what makes football teams find success, identity. That's why buddy Ryan's 46 defense was the best ever. It had identity and created mismatches where Ryan wanted the mismatch to be.

Controlling and creating mismatches... Wins every time
 
WyoBrandX said:
I think a good chunk of the problem is we have enough unique issues surrounding us that you can't just look at another university with div 1 athletics and say 'lets do what they are doing' and become successful.

In the 60's, Eaton came up with ways to recruit smaller d-line and developed techniques that made them very competitive.

In the 70's, we had a few big name coaches come through. They expanded WMS and built facilities.

The 80's and 90's, they focused on running systems that most teams don't face often (during that period anyways). They found farm kids from the sticks that wanted to play football and developed them.

Today - the only way someone will win is to take a look at the resources they have and come up with a plan that will work at Wyoming - and probably not many other places. Seems like the NDSU coach had similar problems in Fargo - so hopefully he can mold and customize his model to what works here.

Know your system, know your staff, know your recruits, know your administration, and know your fan's and you should be able to come up with a way to do it - if you have enough time before getting canned.
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I think a good example of this is Davies at New Mexico. He went to a option style offense and when asked about why he changed to that style when everyone else was throwing the ball more he kept saying that the culture of the state and program is better suited for the type of offense and defense that he was going to run. The verdict is still out on whether he is going to work out at NM but I thought his philosophy was spot on. Find what works with your surroundings.
 
1. At Wyoming, the only way to have sustained success is to keep your coach(es). It is a stepping stone job for the good ones and the bad ones get replaced. Replacement prolongs the agony...it's a vicious cycle.
2. The only kids that want to play at/for Wyoming are Wyoming kids. The rest are kids who want to play at P5 schools who get no offers/overlooked or wait too long to decide (Eddie, the Arizona receiver this year, etc.).
3. The key to success is not only for the coach to stay, but the coach MUST be a visionary on individual recruits. The Granderson's and the Wingard's who are undersized or physically immature for the big guys to want. They aren't as patient and want more "ready made players". Wyoming will NEVER have that luxury. Granderson would not have played last year at any school in the P5 (redshirt) and I have my doubts if Wingard would've either. Doesn't mean they aren't P5 level talents, they just wouldn't have gotten the opportunity because of their measureables (height, weight, etc.)
4. If Bohl stays he must continue to find kids like those two...but it is a crap shoot!
 
I know Bohl can find a few diamonds in the rough. No arguing Brian Hill and a few other of his recruits to anyone.

I know he is trying to develop his players. I have no idea what that will look like yet. 2 seasons is tough to judge.

He might have some great successes here. I just hope he can find the weaknesses in his program as to how it lays out to what the university and state provide him, and adjust accordingly. He will need some time to do that obviously - but hopefully he gets a few big win seasons in before he has to adjust.


Something big happened between Dana Dimel* and Joe Glenn. Its a combination of recruiting and coaching. Bring in Joe with some good recruits - he wins. He tries to recruit - he gets nobody. Koennig recruits good but can't coach himself out of a wet paper bag. That really was a tough time - and we are still paying for it.

* Might be Joe Tiller or Paul Roach instead.
 
J-Rod said:
So it really comes down to your personal definition of success. For me, Wyoming absolutely can reach the UH June Jones era threshold,
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June Jones record at HI:
9-4
3-9
9-3
10-4
9-5
8-5
5-7
11-3
12-1

That would be successful to me. I hope it can happen.

FWIW, before is arrival, HI won 11 games total in 5 years (just over 1 win/year average). They won 0 games the year before his arrival.
 
It's not just Wyoming that doesn't have sustained success, it's well over half of the 120 or so schools out there. The football powerhouses and basketball powerhouses have sustained success. The odd bad year or two, but usually in the hunt. The next level down challange often, have surprised and won or came close to winning on occasion. But most schools could have had the same quote "Can (fill in the blank) have SUSTAINED success in men's bball and/or football?" And the answer is most likely, especially on the national level, no. It's not just the chilly weather in Laramie, or the crappy campus in ____ or the lack of a wining tradition in ____ or the lack of fan support, funding, etc. in ____. It's a combination of all of this. We have proven of late that we can attract good talent to the football team. Coaching them and keeping them have been the issue. And most importantly, attracting enough of them.

For any of the reasons above, most teenage athletes find other options sexier. While tradition, coaching, facilities and all of that are nice, it comes down to the players. More times than not, the team that recruits better will be better. We, and most schools, can not out-recruit the schools with sustained success. That will have to leave our description of attainable success at challenging for conference Championships, qualifying for a bowl game or for the March BB tournament. National Championships or BCS bowl games are not in our future, nor is it for most schools. Maybe a generation from now. I doubt it, but maybe.

For football, while this past season hasn't shown it, someone like Bohl is who we might need. A coach who has proven himself as a HC, regardless of the level, who sticks to his guns, and who can out-recruit his contemporaries (for ND that means all of the FCS and for Wyoming that means the MWC). If he's not the guy, we'll have to be like the majority of schools and struggle along with hopes to make a bowl game now and again and to get the occassional invite in March.

When it comes to football particularly, we are going up against programs that can be described as professional, while we are definatley amateur.
 
There are limitations at Wyoming that make it difficult for the program to be taken seriously at a national level.

Many times, the support isn't there on gamedays. I realize there are reasons like the weather during the winter months blocking roads and the long travel for fans in other parts of the state, but that doesn't always get the airplay it should in the media.

Other programs and national media don't want to hear excuses of why the Arena-Auditorium AND War Memorial are half full, they want to know what the program is going to do about it. The men's basketball team hasn't even filled the AA to 50-percent capacity on average for a season in over a decade. Not even the last two seasons with the AA's lowered capacity.

I'm not pointing fingers at any of you with that last comment. I know I'm speaking with the most diehard of the diehards.

I think there is a turnaround beginning in the support of the programs, seen in some of the facility improvements. Though the execution in some of the AA renovations has been questionable, there was still improvement. I think the HATC was a big step forward for the department. Facilities are one of the biggest keys to getting better players into your program. Those investments will help get the players the school needs to lay the foundation for a good program. Combine that with an increased commitment seen by raising coaches' salaries, there are steps being made, even though they only seem to be baby steps at the time.

I get it. You're sick of mediocrity. I would be too if I had been here since early in my life like many of you here. But building something special takes time. I'm not only talking about one program, I'm talking about an entire department. Yes, I know June Jones had immediate success at Hawaii. But that success was only on the field. No improvements were made away from the field. That's why Jones left for SMU, and the program has only recorded one winning season since his departure eight seasons ago. It's easy to say Jones was the reason they won, and that's probably true. But a school should use sustained success like that to build up the entire department, so that there can still be success after he leaves. I will continue to use NDSU as an example of this. Bohl rebuilt that program and made it a FCS powerhouse. Two years after he left, it remains a powerhouse. They've seen the same success on the basketball court, after Tim Miles built up that program. With the success is coming facility improvements, as well.

Nothing has been built on the football field at Wyoming for years. There hasn't been a big enough commitment to the program to sustain anything. I believe the closest the program came was during the Roach/Tiller years. Since then, the program has taken a step back as a whole. I do believe Wyoming has the right coaches in place to lay a solid foundation at Wyoming for the future. I'm not sure about if they have the right people above them, but I think the arrow is currently pointing in the right direction for University of Wyoming athletics.
 
I have to disagree somewhat Joshvanklomp. Look at the facility upgrades that have been made since the Tiller years. They went out and hired an FCS three-time national championship coach. They hired one of the best offensive coordinators in the country at the time before him. Remember they hired Glenn who had an FCS national championship. It's not like they haven't been trying.
 
I hear you DC, but many of those improvements were already scheduled to take place. I will agree with Josh, the problem is we are reactionary and absolutely suck at striking while the iron is hot so to speak, and yes, there's no vision.... I think that goes for the state in general. Athletics look eerily similar to the state's economy, boom or bust.
 
Bring Joe Glenn back as our AD, hell he could ice to Eskimos in Alaska, agreed the gap of D1 teams is slowly dwindling, with the lesser haves really struggling to make a difference, as much as it pains me to say it
 
Joe Glenn is wrong. The Pokes can and will have sustained success, but not with a "win now" mentality. Vince Lombardi did not with build sustained success with a "win now" philosophy. He built the Packers into a dynasty by hard work over several years. He put the players through hell, developed a mental toughness and a team camaraderie that made the players more concerned about team performance than individual performance.

Bohl is on a similar track. I have said before it will take about 4 years to develop that foundation for sustained success. He has a developmental philosophy... find the kids with heart, athleticism, potential, desire, etc. and mold them into Cowboys. But they need to go through the fire and riggers of off season training, spring games, and fall camp to build that camaraderie that drives sustained performance when they are juniors and seniors.

You all laugh at me for suggesting that a developmental approach will work. No one want to build a winner... you all just want to "win now".
 
Slow poke, you must be slow today...they said bring back Joe as the AD...Athletic Director. Not Head Coach. He's one hellova salesman and is well liked across the state.
 
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