2017 - 2018 UW Mens Team

[McPeachy]

Oh man...what a shit show last night was.

As was mentioned in another thread, we got run out of our own gym. And although fingers can be pointed in many directions (coaching, line-ups, O sets, lack of fan support, D schemes, rebounding, refs, health, etc.), the thing that bothers me most is that we are skinny, weak, and VERY poorly conditioned.

New Mexico clearly looked at our game film, and said to themselves, the easiest way to beat Wyoming is to be physical and aggressive. And had we not shot 58% from the field (a season high), we would have lost by 50.

We are hands-on-our-hips gassed from start to the finish.

 

[LanderPoke]

Agree that we are weak and unimpressive physically. Why can't we put weight and muscle on our guys? And why does it seem like we are the team that is out of shape?

 

[CowboyNV]

The university touts the HATC, perhaps the first bunch to take advantage of it should be the basketball team, because they sure as he'll need it.

 

[cowpoke pride]

Disappointing result last night. Disappointing crowd. Can't believe I actually thought the NIT might have been a possibility at one point.

 

[PorkerPoke]

Unfortunately the Edwards show has been a continuation of the weak recruiting of Larry Shyatt. After this season ends, the Shyatt show has three remaining recruits left on the roster in James, Naughton and Moemeka. Of those three, the only player to really produce has been James.

No criticism of anyone player as an individual that wants to win and play hard, but Shyatt recruited very poorly. His recruiting was more reflective of what would be expected at a Montana State than what is needed to be a MWC winner. The only reason he was able to win the MWC Tourney was because he luckily stumbled across a genuine diamond in Larry Nance Jr. If Nance had not been a Cowboy, the Shyatt show would have floundered under .400 in the MWC.

So far Edwards has not really shown anything different with his recruits. Maldanado holds some promise for the future - much more than a typical Shyatt prototype like an Aka-Gorski ever did. Two others we have not seen and the transfers don't exactly do much. Why pick up a transfer if they cannot play (much or at all) on a team that struggles to win as much as they lose?

What this translates to is most likely a tough year next year and it being two years from now before we see if Edwards recruiting is going to pay a dividend. The question I have as a fan who so desires to see winning return to Wyoming basketball is - how long does Edwards get a pass for producing basketball teams that are the equivalent of a 5-7 (or worse) football team?

 

[seattlecowboy]

Unfortunately the Edwards show has been a continuation of the weak recruiting of Larry Shyatt. After this season ends, the Shyatt show has three remaining recruits left on the roster in James, Naughton and Moemeka. Of those three, the only player to really produce has been James.

No criticism of anyone player as an individual that wants to win and play hard, but Shyatt recruited very poorly. His recruiting was more reflective of what would be expected at a Montana State than what is needed to be a MWC winner. The only reason he was able to win the MWC Tourney was because he luckily stumbled across a genuine diamond in Larry Nance Jr. If Nance had not been a Cowboy, the Shyatt show would have floundered under .400 in the MWC.

So far Edwards has not really shown anything different with his recruits. Maldanado holds some promise for the future - much more than a typical Shyatt prototype like an Aka-Gorski ever did. Two others we have not seen and the transfers don't exactly do much. Why pick up a transfer if they cannot play (much or at all) on a team that struggles to win as much as they lose?

What this translates to is most likely a tough year next year and it being two years from now before we see if Edwards recruiting is going to pay a dividend. The question I have as a fan who so desires to see winning return to Wyoming basketball is - how long does Edwards get a pass for producing basketball teams that are the equivalent of a 5-7 (or worse) football team?

The problem is that Shyatt would coach circles around Edwards. Shyatt also recruited Josh Adams who I would say was pretty decent.

Let's say Edwards is a better recruiter than Shyatt. Okay great. Doesn't really matter because Edwards can't coach or develop players. What he seems to be to me is a Dave Rice light(Edwards doesn't get as high quality of recruits as Rice did but does okay for Wyoming). He can maybe recruit decent like Dave Rice but can't coach.

Edwards isn't getting a pass from me at all. He has been at Wyoming for the whole tenure of Shyatt as well as now. So he had a big part in recruiting the guys that are on this team at that time as well. So this isn't like he came in cold and had to scrap everything and start completely over like most coaches do coming in from somewhere else.

I have seen enough. I would give him next year and that is it. He will probably get at least 2 more years though.

 

[LanderPoke]

Pretty unfair to judge AE recruiting yet. Just to be fair.

 

[WilyWapiti]

Pretty unfair to judge AE recruiting yet. Just to be fair.

Except, as pointed out earlier, he's been here. He is not coming in cold, and was likely responsible for much of the recruiting done during Shyatt's tenure.

I don't think recruiting is the major issue at this point, anyway. We've got (or had) James, Dalton, Maldonado, Redding, Naughton, Herndon, Kelly, Adams, and Jones, which should have given Edwards enough options to create some semblance of a serviceable starting 5. With Mack and Thompson waiting in the wings, we should have way more optimism right now that I'm feeling.

I think the big problem is the fact that Edwards clearly had philosophical differences with Shyatt that didn't surface until after he was made head coach (defense, anyone?). The only way this defense-less "system" is going to work is if we out-shoot our opponents every night, which we have proven time and time again, isn't going to happen.

It also seems as if he's lost the team's focus. They certainly aren't showing up with the same intensity that won us games against Boise State and San Diego State early on in the conference season. We've got to face the fact that we are a bad team right now, and we shouldn't be, given our talent.

I'm not looking forward to losing the annual "Heath Schroyer Memorial" game at the Mountain West tournament, and I'm really not looking forward to watching Hunter Thompson sit the bench for 4 years because he's not "athletic" enough to play in this bull-s**t system.

ww

 

[PorkerPoke]

If recruiting is not the major issue the coaching ability lack thereof speaks volumes. Since part of coaching is recruiting, then the bottom line is it is all about coaching. When the current and prior head coach accumulate 69 losses and 62 wins in the MWC to date, that says they are simply not able to lead winning programs. Throw out the weak OOC. If it were not for some really weak OOC win totals, the Wyoming basketball program overall W-L record would be horrific for the past 15 years.

A consistent viewpoint suggests that Shyatt can coach circles around Edwards. Shyatt's teams could at least play "defense". How about the same scenario in football where Vic's teams could score a lot of points and Glenn's played a lot of defense and yet they both were consistent MWC losers.

Bottom line is Shyatt managed a stunning future Wyoming Hall of Fame W-L record of .469 in MWC play during his latest stint with a first round NBA draft choice who just took 2nd in the All-Star dunk contest. So far with the same lineup that has been a liability against physical or more athletic teams under the defensive prowess of Shyatt, Edwards has managed to tweak the offense up a bit to squeeze out .485 W-L in MWC play.

The glory for the 2017-2018 group of seniors will be the CBI Championship. The fans are so excited with the results it has become a routine challenge to get a great seat to see a home UW basketball game! You can see all of the dozen or so fans who are willing to brave the cold and then have to wait for at least 2 cars in the McDonald's drive thru after the game before driving to wherever home may be.

Since 4-5 years is the magic stay for most coaches at UW who win at least one memorable game or two, it will now be up to Edwards to demonstrate he has recruited the players who can compete in the MWC at a level above 6th, 7th or 8th place where UW basketball has been 7 of the past 8 years under the combo package of Shyatt/Edwards.

The good part is the program is not tanking like CSU is. The wait until next year part is - will this program ever be able to put on a 2017-2018 New Mexico type of resurgence let alone succeeding like a 2017-2018 Fresno, Boise or Nevada?

 

[307bball]

A consistent viewpoint suggests that Shyatt can coach circles around Edwards. Shyatt's teams could at least play "defense". How about the same scenario in football where Vic's teams could score a lot of points and Glenn's played a lot of defense and yet they both were consistent MWC losers.

The reason that is a consistent point of view is because it is true. This current Wyo team has absolutely no coherent identity...they don't put their stamp on any particular aspect of the game and say "this is Wyoming basketball". Poorly coached teams roll the ball out and just see what happens.

I am a vocal critic of the overall talent level that Shyatt was able to recruit but when it was time to play the game ... the opponent was generally in for a long game. Shyatt wasn't perfect...he's a bit old-school (probably a big reason for the recruiting difficulties), but I would rather watch Paco Cruz, Leonard Washington, Charles Hankerson, Adam Waddel, et al. lay it all on the line for their coach and school than the drek I've been seeing this year.

For myself ... it's about the feeling I have watching the team. I believe that I can tell when a team is well prepared and giving it a cohesive effort...win or lose that is fun to watch (I much prefer win ). I'm just getting the same feeling I had during the end of McClain's tenure and the unspeakable Schroyer years.

 

[PorkerPoke]

For me - every year that Wyoming basketball loses as many or more MWC games than wins is a disappointment. I don't care if the game ends up 59-57 with Wyoming losing or 119-114 with the same result.

If it were not for the automatic NCAA bid with a conference tournament win, Shyatt would have not sniffed the NCAA. He may not have even seen the NIT in 2014-15 with his best result at a 4th place tie in the MWC at 11-7. To top it off, we got crushed 71-54 in the NCAA tourney by a Northern Iowa team that got crushed in the next game.

That said and in the essence of the thread title, 2017-2018 has been another year of disappointment where many of the statistical categories put the program in the lower half of D1. All we do is shoot 3's and yet we are ranked something like 249th in FG % from the arc. Basically 74% of other D1 programs have a better shooting percentage that our team does. We do not pursue multiples of our missed shots and are 331st in offensive rebounding virtually assuring our opponents we are one and done on our possessions. These numbers are out of 337 D1 programs.

Weak players - recruiting. Weak schemes - coaching. Year after year - weak basketball. Empty seats galore. I cannot wait for football to see a competitive major program!

Speaking of 2017-2018, Congratulations to Joe Legerski and the women's program. In 15 years only 2 losing seasons in MWC play and only 3 losing seasons overall. Only 1 finish below 5th place. Only 1 NCAA tourney in 15 years like the men's program, but the 6 WNIT appearances and a WNIT Championship are much more glamorous than the CBI. Joe is 144-96 (.600) in MWC games.

This :tickedoff: show of a program has been 94-147 (.381) in the same time span. No matter how it is sliced and diced, the athletic department has not been able to bring in a winning solution and Wyoming basketball is a weak program that the rest of the MWC feasts off of routinely.

 

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

For me - every year that Wyoming basketball loses as many or more MWC games than wins is a disappointment. I don't care if the game ends up 59-57 with Wyoming losing or 119-114 with the same result.

If it were not for the automatic NCAA bid with a conference tournament win, Shyatt would have not sniffed the NCAA. He may not have even seen the NIT in 2014-15 with his best result at a 4th place tie in the MWC at 11-7. To top it off, we got crushed 71-54 in the NCAA tourney by a Northern Iowa team that got crushed in the next game.

That said and in the essence of the thread title, 2017-2018 has been another year of disappointment where many of the statistical categories put the program in the lower half of D1. All we do is shoot 3's and yet we are ranked something like 249th in FG % from the arc. Basically 74% of other D1 programs have a better shooting percentage that our team does. We do not pursue multiples of our missed shots and are 331st in offensive rebounding virtually assuring our opponents we are one and done on our possessions. These numbers are out of 337 D1 programs.

Weak players - recruiting. Weak schemes - coaching. Year after year - weak basketball. Empty seats galore. I cannot wait for football to see a competitive major program!

Speaking of 2017-2018, Congratulations to Joe Legerski and the women's program. In 15 years only 2 losing seasons in MWC play and only 3 losing seasons overall. Only 1 finish below 5th place. Only 1 NCAA tourney in 15 years like the men's program, but the 6 WNIT appearances and a WNIT Championship are much more glamorous than the CBI. Joe is 144-96 (.600) in MWC games.

This :tickedoff: show of a program has been 94-147 (.381) in the same time span. No matter how it is sliced and diced, the athletic department has not been able to bring in a winning solution and Wyoming basketball is a weak program that the rest of the MWC feasts off of routinely.

Hard to argue with this. Basketball has never really recovered from Shroyer. We have had fancier schemes and good recruiting but the results have been equally disheartening. We have one of the nicer venues in the conference and can't fill it because the product on the floor is so mediocre at best. Its frustrating as a B&G Homer.

 

[Pokes fan 24-7]

Football really isn't any better. In the 19 seasons Since joining the mountain west our overall record is 80 and 138(quick count on Wikipedia could be off by a few) with 5 bowl appearances and 3 wins. Hopefully times are changing for football though.

 

[307bball]

I guess for me record is important, but I'm more interested in trajectory. I think it would be hard to argue that the trend under Edwards is upwards. The football analogy is a good one. Nobody likes losing conference games but we all appreciate the job Bohl has done even with a losing record. I don't expect championships year in and year out but with consistent improvement there will be championships. I think that whatever optimism there was in having continuity from Shyatt by hiring an assistant is waning rapidly.

 

[TSpoke]

I guess for me record is important, but I'm more interested in trajectory. I think it would be hard to argue that the trend under Edwards is upwards. The football analogy is a good one. Nobody likes losing conference games but we all appreciate the job Bohl has done even with a losing record. I don't expect championships year in and year out but with consistent improvement there will be championships. I think that whatever optimism there was in having continuity from Shyatt by hiring an assistant is waning rapidly.

I think a lot of people here would and are arguing this. I do agree with you though. We are getting better with each class we sign in my opinion. We just haven't had a break through year yet. Last years class looks like the best we hav had in years, and we already have seen that one of the Hunters is gonna be good hopefully the other Hunter and Mack(who many here think is the best in the class) are ready to step up next year.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

2015-16 (Last year under Shyatt): 14-18 RPI: 184
2016-17: 18-14 (23-15 if you count CBI games) RPI: 153
2017-18: 17-11 with 3 regular season and MWC Tourney games to go. Current RPI: 99

Sorry boys and girls...throw out all the anecdotal bullshit and the numbers speak for themselves. Edwards teams haven't been declining at the very least, and arguably have been getting better.

Note: I'm not saying that Edwards is or isn't the answer, I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of people on here bitching about something that the numbers don't support.

 

[NowherePoke]

2015-16 (Last year under Shyatt): 14-18 RPI: 184
2016-17: 18-14 (23-15 if you count CBI games) RPI: 153
2017-18: 17-11 with 3 regular season and MWC Tourney games to go. Current RPI: 99

Sorry boys and girls...throw out all the anecdotal bullshit and the numbers speak for themselves. Edwards teams haven't been declining at the very least, and arguably have been getting better.

Note: I'm not saying that Edwards is or isn't the answer, I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of people on here bitching about something that the numbers don't support.

RPI is a very poor metric.

You are also very much cherry picking by only picking one of Shyatt's seasons.

Here are Shyatt's KenPom Rankings:

90
100
118
109
166 (the last year)

Edwards' first two seasons"

127
120


Keep in mind that this team has 4 seniors. Shyatt had 4 seniors on two occasions. Those teams went 21-12 (KenPom ranking = 90) and 25-10 with a MWC Tournament title. The latter team was 8-2, 19-4 before losing it's best player for several games.

This year's team with 4 seniors is currently 17-11 with a KenPom ranking of 120. Not really on par. Next year's team projects to be really, really bad (barring something special in the spring signing period, not out of the question).

 

[NowherePoke]

I guess for me record is important, but I'm more interested in trajectory. I think it would be hard to argue that the trend under Edwards is upwards. The football analogy is a good one. Nobody likes losing conference games but we all appreciate the job Bohl has done even with a losing record. I don't expect championships year in and year out but with consistent improvement there will be championships. I think that whatever optimism there was in having continuity from Shyatt by hiring an assistant is waning rapidly.

I think a lot of people here would and are arguing this. I do agree with you though. We are getting better with each class we sign in my opinion. We just haven't had a break through year yet. Last years class looks like the best we hav had in years, and we already have seen that one of the Hunters is gonna be good hopefully the other Hunter and Mack(who many here think is the best in the class) are ready to step up next year.

Last year's class was:

Thompson (hasn't played yet)
Mack (hasn't played yet)
Haley (didn't work out)
Maldonado (my second favorite player on the team, will have a great career at UW I believe).


To me that is an incomplete. It isn't bad or good yet. All we know if we have one player that worked out and one that didn't. I hope Mack and Thompson have great careers in the Brown and Gold but we don't know yet what they will turn out to be.

A couple of years ago, the 2015 class looked really good on paper (James, Moemeka, Naughton, Marshall, Dalton). James has turned out great (as expected) and Dalton has far exceeded expectations (although his lack of presence on D is certainly a contributor to our issues), the others have fallen short.

Anyway, I don't really think our talent is the problem. We do lack a post presence, but this is 2018 and so does 80% of our opponents. With the skill sets that Dalton, James, Herndon, Adams, Maldonado, etc. possess, we should be able to craft a pretty good team. Make that group experienced and there is no excuse that they just authored arguably the worst defensive effort we have seen in modern times.

The problem is the coaches, not the players. JMO.

 

[WestWYOPoke]

2015-16 (Last year under Shyatt): 14-18 RPI: 184
2016-17: 18-14 (23-15 if you count CBI games) RPI: 153
2017-18: 17-11 with 3 regular season and MWC Tourney games to go. Current RPI: 99

Sorry boys and girls...throw out all the anecdotal bullshit and the numbers speak for themselves. Edwards teams haven't been declining at the very least, and arguably have been getting better.

Note: I'm not saying that Edwards is or isn't the answer, I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of people on here bitching about something that the numbers don't support.

RPI is a very poor metric.

You are also very much cherry picking by only picking one of Shyatt's seasons.

Of course I'm cherry picking his last season. This discussion is about Edwards and what he is doing currently. I used Shyatt's last season as a comparison, his prior seasons are irrelevant to this discussion.

And I'm not sure what having 4 seniors has to do with anything. Going in to this season, it was very apparent that Wyo wasn't going to be a stellar team. The fact that Wyo will finish in the Top 8 and still have a shot a being 4th or 5th is better than what I anticipated.

As for next years squad, it's hard to say, we have 2 possible impact players in Mack and Thompson that will have a huge impact (either positively or negatively) on how that team will perform. Wyoming is still a long ways to having a truly good team, which is something they haven't had since 2001-2002.

 

[NowherePoke]

2015-16 (Last year under Shyatt): 14-18 RPI: 184
2016-17: 18-14 (23-15 if you count CBI games) RPI: 153
2017-18: 17-11 with 3 regular season and MWC Tourney games to go. Current RPI: 99

Sorry boys and girls...throw out all the anecdotal bullshit and the numbers speak for themselves. Edwards teams haven't been declining at the very least, and arguably have been getting better.

Note: I'm not saying that Edwards is or isn't the answer, I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of people on here bitching about something that the numbers don't support.

RPI is a very poor metric.

You are also very much cherry picking by only picking one of Shyatt's seasons.

Of course I'm cherry picking his last season. This discussion is about Edwards and what he is doing currently. I used Shyatt's last season as a comparison, his prior seasons are irrelevant to this discussion.


And I'm not sure what having 4 seniors has to do with anything. Going in to this season, it was very apparent that Wyo wasn't going to be a stellar team. The fact that Wyo will finish in the Top 8 and still have a shot a being 4th or 5th is better than what I anticipated.

As for next years squad, it's hard to say, we have 2 possible impact players in Mack and Thompson that will have a huge impact (either positively or negatively) on how that team will perform. Wyoming is still a long ways to having a truly good team, which is something they haven't had since 2001-2002.

I don't understand why only one season is relevant. If the argument being put forth is that Edwards is an upgrade from Shyatt or a general improvement from what Shyatt offered, I think you need to look at a more complete picture.

The 4 seniors is relevant because historically teams with more experience (particularly at UW and the MWC level in general) have outperformed teams with less experience (which is not surprising). Next year's team will be much less experienced than this team. Give the same coach an experienced and inexperienced team and they will get very different results. Shyatt didn't forget how to coach between 14-15 and 15-16, he simply went from having a very experienced team to having a very inexperienced team. We are about to see the same drop off next year, but instead of going from 11-7 to 7-11 it will be 9-9 or 8-10 to 5-13 or 4-14 (or something in that general range), which is basically disaster level from my perspective.