Reality

[OrediggerPoke]

Thank God they're gonna eliminate property taxes, so all the counties and municipalities can eliminate the services that older people depend on. Smart!

It is crazy. The plan (I guess) is to somewhat replace the revenue with an increased sales tax. That actually has an outsized impact on older people because they typically have smaller (less expensive and thus less taxed) homes, live on fixed incomes but still need to buy everyday items subject to sales taxation to live.

So what we are really doing is subsidizing the Jackson wealthy folks because they no longer would have to pay property tax on their ridiculous multi-million dollar residences but largely don't need to purchase more essentials (subject to sales taxation) than the other typical Wyoming resident.

I don't understand it at all.

 

[LanderPoke]

Thank God they're gonna eliminate property taxes, so all the counties and municipalities can eliminate the services that older people depend on. Smart!

Boomers, man. They want to have their cake and eat it too

 

[LanderPoke]

Oredigger - tell me about the rare earth mineral situation in Wyoming

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Oredigger - tell me about the rare earth mineral situation in Wyoming

I could tell you a lot about it. There is a lot of potential in Wyoming. But most importantly , rare earths largely produce NO royalty income to the state of Wyoming because most economic deposits are located on federally owned minerals in Wyoming which are part of the 1872 Mining Law and not the Mineral Leasing Act (where Wyoming gets half the coal and oil and gas royalties).

As far as severance taxes, coal is taxed at an additional 6.5% in Wyoming but rare earths only at 2%.

Long story short, it cannot solve revenue shortfalls under current royalty and taxing structures…especially if industrial property taxes are ever reduced. Direct income from rare earths is relatively small under current law.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

What is actually a bit interesting, is that the deposits of magnetic rare earths found in Wyoming in economic deposits recently seem to be needed most for: (1) induction generators developed for wind turbines; (2) EV vehicles and their motors; and (3) battery storage. Those are products the freedom caucus seems to rally against.

Personally, I could care less what we produce and what type of energy we create if it has a market and produces income for the state of Wyoming (I don’t pick winners and losers). If California wants to buy a type of energy from Wyoming at a higher cost than it could get from a fossil fuel, that may be stupid of California but that is great for Wyoming.

 

[LanderPoke]

I could tell you a lot about it. There is a lot of potential in Wyoming. But most importantly , rare earths largely produce NO royalty income to the state of Wyoming because most economic deposits are located on federally owned minerals in Wyoming which are part of the 1872 Mining Law and not the Mineral Leasing Act (where Wyoming gets half the coal and oil and gas royalties).

As far as severance taxes, coal is taxed at an additional 6.5% in Wyoming but rare earths only at 2%.

Long story short, it cannot solve revenue shortfalls under current royalty and taxing structures…especially if industrial property taxes are ever reduced. Direct income from rare earths is relatively small under current law.

At least it has potential to provide a lot of jobs?

 

[OrediggerPoke]

At least it has potential to provide a lot of jobs?

Yes that is the upside. But most jobs are actually in the processing of rare earths. Unless you invest in local infrastructure to create an inviting place for a workforce, companies may opt to simply ship the mined ore out of state to be processed elsewhere. I’m afraid this is what will occur with our current path.

 

[LanderPoke]

Yes that is the upside. But most jobs are actually in the processing of rare earths. Unless you invest in local infrastructure to create an inviting place for a workforce, companies may opt to simply ship the mined ore out of state to be processed elsewhere. I’m afraid this is what will occur with our current path.

Cowboy state daily said they just built a processing plant in Upton. If they can build one there then hopefully they could build them elsewhere in Wyoming, too.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Cowboy state daily said they just built a processing plant on Upton. If they can build one there then hopefully they could build them elsewhere in Wyoming, too.

It’s a small demonstration plant to test the company’s new processing technology. The plants that would be needed to develop resources like the Halleck Creek discovery would be magnitudes bigger.

 

[LawPoke]

It is crazy. The plan (I guess) is to somewhat replace the revenue with an increased sales tax. That actually has an outsized impact on older people because they typically have smaller (less expensive and thus less taxed) homes, live on fixed incomes but still need to buy everyday items subject to sales taxation to live.

So what we are really doing is subsidizing the Jackson wealthy folks because they no longer would have to pay property tax on their ridiculous multi-million dollar residences but largely don't need to purchase more essentials (subject to sales taxation) than the other typical Wyoming resident.

I don't understand it at all.

This is a very thoughtful and cogent post. The scary thing is that most in the Legislature and quite a few citizens have no idea that property taxes fund the most important things in most folks' lives. There is a perception that they are sent to Cheyenne and fund general state operations, when in reality, they fund roads, bridges, ambulances, hospitals, sewer and water infrastructure, schools, snow removal, cemeteries, parks, curb and gutter, sidewalks, senior centers, conservation districts, weed and pest districts, and countless other services. To think you can backfill with extremely regressive sales taxes is crazy - and, as you point out, only serves to further line the pockets of the billionaires and millionaires in Jackson, Star Valley, Cody, Jackson, Pinedale and everywhere else at the expense of the commoner that will see their already high grocery bill skyrocket. None of this mentions the impact on our already struggling retail and commercial sectors, who will have to layer the tax increases on top of inflation and tariff-based adjustments. If it wasn't so terrible and cruel, it would almost be comical.

 

[laxwyo]

Thank God they're gonna eliminate property taxes, so all the counties and municipalities can eliminate the services that older people depend on. Smart!

Orrr you’re 80 yrs old and you’ve had your house paid off for 30 yrs. Your home is now worth 5x what you paid and now you can barely afford the taxes. You nanny staters are quite simply missing something.

Property tax is quite simply the most anti American tax there can be even more so than income tax. There is simply no liberty if you still rent your own house from the state.

 

[laxwyo]

This is a very thoughtful and cogent post. The scary thing is that most in the Legislature and quite a few citizens have no idea that property taxes fund the most important things in most folks' lives. There is a perception that they are sent to Cheyenne and fund general state operations, when in reality, they fund roads, bridges, ambulances, hospitals, sewer and water infrastructure, schools, snow removal, cemeteries, parks, curb and gutter, sidewalks, senior centers, conservation districts, weed and pest districts, and countless other services. To think you can backfill with extremely regressive sales taxes is crazy - and, as you point out, only serves to further line the pockets of the billionaires and millionaires in Jackson, Star Valley, Cody, Jackson, Pinedale and everywhere else at the expense of the commoner that will see their already high grocery bill skyrocket. None of this mentions the impact on our already struggling retail and commercial sectors, who will have to layer the tax increases on top of inflation and tariff-based adjustments. If it wasn't so terrible and cruel, it would almost be comical.

This is a very thoughtful and cogent post. The scary thing is that most in the Legislature and quite a few citizens have no idea that property taxes fund the most important things in most folks' lives. There is a perception that they are sent to Cheyenne and fund general state operations, when in reality, they fund roads, bridges, ambulances, hospitals, sewer and water infrastructure, schools, snow removal, cemeteries, parks, curb and gutter, sidewalks, senior centers, conservation districts, weed and pest districts, and countless other services. To think you can backfill with extremely regressive sales taxes is crazy - and, as you point out, only serves to further line the pockets of the billionaires and millionaires in Jackson, Star Valley, Cody, Jackson, Pinedale and everywhere else at the expense of the commoner that will see their already high grocery bill skyrocket. None of this mentions the impact on our already struggling retail and commercial sectors, who will have to layer the tax increases on top of inflation and tariff-based adjustments. If it wasn't so terrible and cruel, it would almost be comical.

It’s actually a quite retarded post. No sales tax on food. Forcing retired people to continue to rent their homes from the state or they’ll be kicked out is some serious old school English aristocratic shit there.

 

[307bball]

It’s actually a quite retarded post. No sales tax on food. Forcing retired people to continue to rent their homes from the state or they’ll be kicked out is some serious old school English aristocratic shit there.

There is no such thing as a perfect solution....That being said...the things that Oredigger brought up are not that controversial in economics. Consumption taxes are some of the most regressive ways to fund government.

You'll always be able to cherry-pick an example to make your pet position look good and the alternate look bad. It's all trade offs. I'm fine with not funding things if the people want to not fund something but it's disingenuous to attack the source of the funding without addressing what will be cut. Unfortunately all sides of the political spectrum do that.

 

[Brew_Poke]

Orrr you’re 80 yrs old and you’ve had your house paid off for 30 yrs. Your home is now worth 5x what you paid and now you can barely afford the taxes. You nanny staters are quite simply missing something.

Property tax is quite simply the most anti American tax there can be even more so than income tax. There is simply no liberty if you still rent your own house from the state.

Property taxes are the most American of any tax, going back to before the Revolution. Learn some history.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

It’s actually a quite retarded post. No sales tax on food. Forcing retired people to continue to rent their homes from the state or they’ll be kicked out is some serious old school English aristocratic shit there.

First, I don’t like the word retarded. Having close family friends that have children with downs and autism has really woken me up. It’s a word that I used to throw around but certainly don’t now. But that’s fine.

However - You do realize that Wyoming has (and has had) property tax exemptions/reductions for long term owners and veterans right? You do also realize that Wyoming first introduced property taxes in 1876 (before it was a state) and has had property tax ever since? The Wyoming constitution itself embraces property taxes (see article 15 section 11). Were the founders of Wyoming’s State Constitution tyrants?

It also seems hyperbole to suggest that property taxes are kicking old people out of their homes. Who are these people? Do you personally know them? Why was this not seemingly an issue for the previous roughly 150 years?

This is exactly what I hear come from the freedom caucus. The only winners in a shift from a property to a sales tax are the very wealthy. The big losers are Wyoming small businesses (they can’t compete with business of neighboring states, people are largely going to purchase goods where they save the most money). Causing small business to fail inevitably causes small communities to collapse. I personally don’t want to see the Lusks, Meeteetsee’s and Sundance’s go away. Those are the gems of Wyoming to me (not cities full of out of state rich folks who moved to the likes of Jackson and Pinedale).

I’m all for eliminating property, income and sales taxes if feasible to still fund schools and provide basic services. But rather than embrace new industries and figure out ways to make money from them, we have a legislature that now likes to dictate folks lives and reject new industries. None of it are the principles that this state has embraced for the past 100 plus years.

 

[jwy_poke]

First, I don’t like the word retarded. Having close family friends that have children with downs and autism has really woken me up. It’s a word that I used to throw around but certainly don’t now. But that’s fine.

However - You do realize that Wyoming has (and has had) property tax exemptions/reductions for long term owners and veterans right? You do also realize that Wyoming first introduced property taxes in 1876 (before it was a state) and has had property tax ever since? The Wyoming constitution itself embraces property taxes (see article 15 section 11). Were the founders of Wyoming’s State Constitution tyrants?

It also seems hyperbole to suggest that property taxes are kicking old people out of their homes. Who are these people? Do you personally know them? Why was this not seemingly an issue for the previous roughly 150 years?

This is exactly what I hear come from the freedom caucus. The only winners in a shift from a property to a sales tax are the very wealthy. The big losers are Wyoming small businesses (they can’t compete with business of neighboring states, people are largely going to purchase goods where they save the most money). Causing small business to fail inevitably causes small communities to collapse. I personally don’t want to see the Lusks, Meeteetsee’s and Sundance’s go away. Those are the gems of Wyoming to me (not cities full of out of state rich folks who moved to the likes of Jackson and Pinedale).

I’m all for eliminating property, income and sales taxes if feasible to still fund schools and provide basic services. But rather than embrace new industries and figure out ways to make money from them, we have a legislature that now likes to dictate folks lives and reject new industries. None of it are the principles that this state has embraced for the past 100 plus years.

I'm not rich but I still end up paying rich people property taxes. I can get a reduction in property taxes when I'm 65.

 

[Douglaspoke]

ORE DIGGER:: Speaking of Halleck Creek discovery, what is going on there? What is the general current status and long term? is this the real thing and is it a money issue holding it up?

 

[OrediggerPoke]

I'm not rich but I still end up paying rich people property taxes. I can get a reduction in property taxes when I'm 65.

Property taxes seem massive because you see the total in your yearly assessor statement. Replacing the property tax with the sales tax (close to any point where the same amount of income is realized to the state/county/locality) may not be as eye popping to the average Wyoming consumer but you end up paying more tax total. The wealthy persons with very high value real estate end up saving big though. Maybe that is who everyone desires to give a big break? Maybe the desire is to attract more wealthy California residents to Wyoming? Isn’t mine - - but maybe that is the freedom caucus goal.

We have been lucky in Wyoming in the past due to mineral revenues - we have no income tax and 2nd lowest total tax burden in the country (behind Alaska). Those mineral revenues are on a significant downward trend.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

ORE DIGGER:: Speaking of Halleck Creek discovery, what is going on there? What is the general current status and long term? is this the real thing and is it a money issue holding it up?

It’s a permitting and federal land issue. The vast majority of the resource is on federal minerals. There are a couple smaller parcels that sit on state lands.

The company owns the federal mining claims but developing a federal mineral like that with a new mine has historically taken well over a decade to permit and navigate the NEPA process.

Also - the economics have yet to be really proven and there is a lack of local processing capability. The Halleck discovery could become a big mine in 10 years or so if EVERYTHING goes right. The company has announced plans to develop the small state parcels in the mean time (and probably ship the mined ore out of state but that is still unclear). Financing is also an issue given economic and regulatory uncertainty.

 

[TheRealUW]

I'm not rich but I still end up paying rich people property taxes. I can get a reduction in property taxes when I'm 65.

Out of curiosity, what does the average homeowner in Wyoming pay for property taxes? Here in Texas, where I live, property taxes are very high. I pay around $15k a year in property taxes on my home that is valued around $850k.

What really makes those property taxes sting is that around 50% of it is taxes for the local school district, but Texas has a "Robin Hood" program that redistributes school taxes from more property rich urban areas to less property rich rural areas. Despite our local school district being in pretty poor financial shape to the point they are shutting down and consolidating schools to meet the budget, the state takes about 60% of the taxes we pay and sends them to school districts elsewhere in the state.