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Who Like's Burman?

laxwyo said:
I don't understand how he makes what he makes. If I'm negotiating this contract I say, "listen, we want to give you this opportunity. You're a first time head coach and we'd like to keep some continuity in our program. With that being said, your base salary is going to reflect that you're an unproven first time coach. However, we're going to add some very nice performance based incentives. If you end up winning as many games as the previous coach, we feel you should be compensated equally. This is a great opportunity to prove yourself. This is our final offer, you're more than welcome to pursue other head coaching opportunities"
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That makes WAY too much sense for our AD to make happen. WAY TOO MUCH.
 
TheRealUW said:
I'm not sure if there is anybody out there that can get it done as our AD, but we have to at least try.
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I feel that assistant AD's everywhere would jump at the opportunity to guide Wyoming. There is only one direction Wyoming can go, and that is up. Mickey Mouse could do better. We are damn near rock bottom in all aspects of a D1 athletic department.
 
OrediggerPoke said:
The absolute worst thing that could happen is Sawvel gets fired and Burman is put in charge of hiring yet another head coach. There’s no way out of this mess other than riding what we have for the time being, praying the BOT doesn’t run a clown show search for a new President, praying the new President will come in and thank Burman for his service and then conduct a proper search for a new AD followed shortly be a new football coaching staff. This is likely a 2 year process or so to do it right. But I fully expect the BOT to botch it.
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This ^
Burman has had his chances to make an impactful hire, he blew it as he didn't learn from his botched basketball hires. We need new blood in the AD office, someone with fresh ideas and a desire to win.
 
TheRealUW said:
I like Tom Burman as a person. I've talked to him a lot over the years, and I believe he loves the University of Wyoming and the State of Wyoming. He works hard, is humble, and isn't afraid to engage with fans even when they come at him with criticism. He deserves credit for that. I really wish he would of had success at UW because he is a great representative of Wyoming in my opinion.

All that being said, he just isn't cutting it as our AD. I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise at this point. I'm not sure if there is anybody out there that can get it done as our AD, but we have to at least try.
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I'm sure he is a great hang. Lot's of people I would enjoy having a beer with and are good people who might not be good a particular task. I should have named this thread differently.
 
TheRealUW said:
I like Tom Burman as a person. I've talked to him a lot over the years, and I believe he loves the University of Wyoming and the State of Wyoming. He works hard, is humble, and isn't afraid to engage with fans even when they come at him with criticism. He deserves credit for that. I really wish he would of had success at UW because he is a great representative of Wyoming in my opinion.

All that being said, he just isn't cutting it as our AD. I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise at this point. I'm not sure if there is anybody out there that can get it done as our AD, but we have to at least try.
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I think you are exactly right. He is smarter than most everybody on this board. He loves UW. Great person. But the intricacies of the teams that he oversees are lost on him. Finding ways to win that are outside of the box . . . he is clueless. When he left Portland State it wasn't to be the athletic director at Wyoming, it was to be Vice President at the UW Foundation. That was a sign that being athletic director wasn't really for him. If he wanted to be athletic director he should have had success at Portland State and had other opportunities from other programs other than UW or been so successful there that they didn't want him to leave. That's not what happened at all.

Really bugs me when he says "Coach Sawvel needs to win and he knows that." No, "Coach Sawvel and I need to win." is the proper mentality. He needs to own it, but he tries to separate himself from the coaches he is hiring (and then firing), like it's not his fault or his job to win.
 
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OrediggerPoke said:
Are you looking for a job as an athletic director? It appears you are much more qualified than our current one.
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The odds Sawvel turns this down is low. Breaking into HC of div 1 school is a gigantic personal achievement. This tactic is used by my current empoyer when promoting. They know what you currently make, you want to move up and they give you just enough money to accept but not enough to really change your life.
 
McPeachy said:
I feel that assistant AD's everywhere would jump at the opportunity to guide Wyoming. There is only one direction Wyoming can go, and that is up. Mickey Mouse could do better. We are damn near rock bottom in all aspects of a D1 athletic department.
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A drunk monkey could do better than Burman!!!!!!
 
ragtimejoe1 said:



What improved and what didn't?
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The report is titled "2013 PROGRAM REVIEW Football & Men’s Basketball"

Just looking at those two programs...it's a damning indictment. Basketball was not good before 2013 until you get back to the McClain era with Marcus Bailey...for Football, also bad. Since then? The two highest points ('14/'15 and '21/'22) for the basketball program in a long time has happened since 2013 but overall I would say the program is worse than before 2013 in the aggregate. Football?..I think it's juuuust better than before 2013 but it's trending decidedly in the wrong direction. Overall both programs have bumped along below mediocre with a couple seasons above that line for basketball and the slightly above mediocre Bohl era in football.
 
OrediggerPoke said:
2013 - “The need to schedule quality non-conference home games in football is clearly evident…”

After giving away the game against North Texas, our home non conference opponents over the next 3 years: Northern Colorado, UCONN, Southern Utah, Central Michigan, Idaho State and Akron.”

Glad Burman took the report to heart…
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I bet if the study were done again, most of the recommendations went ignored and there would be more on nil/transfer considerations.

Burman has done pretty well with soliciting legislature money. Not too bad with limited pool of wealthy donors. He's only hired 3 football coaches. I actually don't fault him much for the DC hire and I was surprised he landed him at the time. TB's theory that we needed to transition to a spread to take advantage of elevation and also try to minimize effects of talent discrepancies we often face, was logical. DC was an ass + couldn't get the offensive consistency year after year coupled with a bad (or maybe gassed) D. The Bohl hire was good then transitioned to safe. IMO, maybe it was fear of getting worse, but Bohl was strong evidence that upper end of good enough is largely accepted at WYO. Maybe that is the ceiling and maybe not. That is TB's ceiling if he can put those pieces together. He'll talk about championships but after 5 years of DC and 5 years of Bohl, it seemed more evident to me that he is ok with 7 wins and full stands.

He decimated bball and botched renovations. My opinion will always be that he hired PBJ mostly/entirely to facilitate the career of Junior. I'm sure he talked himself into the concept that continuity was best, but reality was only the DC could be promoted and locked down with a contract that is not representative of the market. This is the first time I've felt he put personal relationships above the program. It needs thoroughly investigated.

To be fair, 7 wins, a cloud of dust, and some dumb slogan about cowboy toughness is maybe all that is required for the fanbase? Back to good enough is good enough, I suppose. Maybe it's not Burman. Maybe he's a product of the overall ambition (with respect to sports) of our fans, the legislature, and the university. Maybe the majority just doesn't give a shit?
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
I bet if the study were done again, most of the recommendations went ignored and there would be more on nil/transfer considerations.

Burman has done pretty well with soliciting legislature money. Not too bad with limited pool of wealthy donors. He's only hired 3 football coaches. I actually don't fault him much for the DC hire and I was surprised he landed him at the time. TB's theory that we needed to transition to a spread to take advantage of elevation and also try to minimize effects of talent discrepancies we often face, was logical. DC was an ass + couldn't get the offensive consistency year after year coupled with a bad (or maybe gassed) D. The Bohl hire was good then transitioned to safe. IMO, maybe it was fear of getting worse, but Bohl was strong evidence that upper end of good enough is largely accepted at WYO. Maybe that is the ceiling and maybe not. That is TB's ceiling if he can put those pieces together. He'll talk about championships but after 5 years of DC and 5 years of Bohl, it seemed more evident to me that he is ok with 7 wins and full stands.

He decimated bball and botched renovations. My opinion will always be that he hired PBJ mostly/entirely to facilitate the career of Junior. I'm sure he talked himself into the concept that continuity was best, but reality was only the DC could be promoted and locked down with a contract that is not representative of the market. This is the first time I've felt he put personal relationships above the program. It needs thoroughly investigated.

To be fair, 7 wins, a cloud of dust, and some dumb slogan about cowboy toughness is maybe all that is required for the fanbase? Back to good enough is good enough, I suppose. Maybe it's not Burman. Maybe he's a product of the overall ambition (with respect to sports) of our fans, the legislature, and the university. Maybe the majority just doesn't give a shit?
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On the topic of defending his hiring of any particular coach...I think that's fair but might miss the point. Every move he has made can probably be defended in a vacuum...but nobody is/can defend the results his marquis programs (football and mbb) have achieved.

The problem is always going to be "defensible" moves. The only times that term comes up is when things aren't working out. The goalposts for the AD must be moved to competitive results. I don't know what alchemy goes into creating competetive football and mbb teams, but I do know we don't have them at UW. That needs to be the metric of success for the athletic department. Furthermore, it's true that the Bohl era produced crowds and donations so you can see that the appetite in Wyoming for a good program exists and you will be rewarded as an AD if you can just maintain that level.

Fan's showing up for lot's of home wins and 7 win seasons is not a mark against us...it's a mark in our program's favor. It shows that Wyoming fans are thirsty for a competitive product.

It's a thankless position, particularly at Wyoming. But you get a boatload of cash for doing it and the Bot and UW President need to move off of Burman and approach the next guy/gal with the clear message that your major programs must be competitively successful. Programs that look like what Shyatt and Bohl did in their respective sports are the line. If you are at that line you better be making moves. If you are below that line you will be moved on from.
 
307bball said:
On the topic of defending his hiring of any particular coach...I think that's fair but might miss the point. Every move he has made can probably be defended in a vacuum...but nobody is/can defend the results his marquis programs (football and mbb) have achieved.

The problem is always going to be "defensible" moves. The only times that term comes up is when things aren't working out. The goalposts for the AD must be moved to competitive results. I don't know what alchemy goes into creating competetive football and mbb teams, but I do know we don't have them at UW. That needs to be the metric of success for the athletic department. Furthermore, it's true that the Bohl era produced crowds and donations so you can see that the appetite in Wyoming for a good program exists and you will be rewarded as an AD if you can just maintain that level.

Fan's showing up for lot's of home wins and 7 win seasons is not a mark against us...it's a mark in our program's favor. It shows that Wyoming fans are thirsty for a competitive product.

It's a thankless position, particularly at Wyoming. But you get a boatload of cash for doing it and the Bot and UW President need to move off of Burman and approach the next guy/gal with the clear message that your major programs must be competitively successful. Programs that look like what Shyatt and Bohl did in their respective sports are the line. If you are at that line you better be making moves. If you are below that line you will be moved on from.
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DC's tenure is very similar to Bohl's first 5 years. DC's ego/attitude became too much to deal with. TB also fired Glenn who was also fairly similar to those 2 over a 5 year stretch. Bohl was lucky he got Josh (subsequent QB decisions convince me that IDing Josh was a fluke which I'm grateful for). I also wonder if Bohl would have been TB's 1st hire, would TB been as patient? If Bohl didn't stumble on Josh, would he have been able to lift out of the some of the worst football teams I've witnessed?

DC wasn't a long-term solution but also wasn't a total spectacular fail. It's also hard to discredit the Bohl hire in very many ways. The current hire, smells bad from a lot of angles.

Our budget hasn't grown proportionally to the top end MWC. I don't know about grad rates and all the academic metrics, but we haven't seen a lot of bad press about student athletes or programs. We have the fewest championships in all sports than any other MWC program. Overall, wins/losses across programs, he hasn't and isn't succeeding. In other areas, he's done well.
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
DC's tenure is very similar to Bohl's first 5 years. DC's ego/attitude became too much to deal with. TB also fired Glenn who was also fairly similar to those 2 over a 5 year stretch. Bohl was lucky he got Josh (subsequent QB decisions convince me that IDing Josh was a fluke which I'm grateful for). I also wonder if Bohl would have been TB's 1st hire, would TB been as patient? If Bohl didn't stumble on Josh, would he have been able to lift out of the some of the worst football teams I've witnessed?

DC wasn't a long-term solution but also wasn't a total spectacular fail. It's also hard to discredit the Bohl hire in very many ways. The current hire, smells bad from a lot of angles.

Our budget hasn't grown proportionally to the top end MWC. I don't know about grad rates and all the academic metrics, but we haven't seen a lot of bad press about student athletes or programs. We have the fewest championships in all sports than any other MWC program. Overall, wins/losses across programs, he hasn't and isn't succeeding. In other areas, he's done well.
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So....how would you contextualize the other areas that he's "done well" in? In your opinion, are they worth the squeeze of having had the competitive results achieved during his tenure?

Would you say that my idea of making competitive results in football and mbb the singular metric of success for the athletic director is unfair?

When looking at DC, Glenn and Bohl...the thing that jumps out to me is that the former two had pretty much petered out by years 4, 5 and in Glenn's case, 6. After the first two years Bohl never lost 7 games ... had a nice run after those first two years. The problem with looking at it like this is that it misses the point that until 2016, the Wyoming football program was, on average, a bottom third MWC team that made appearances in the middle to a Middle third MWC team that made appearances in the top. We look, with Sawful at the helm, to be going back to the status quo that existed before Bohl dragged us to the middle. To the extent that you can as an AD, Burman should have been pressuring Bohl to get his offensive game plan to a level that meant we could legitimately contend for championships....that probably pisses Bohl off, but if Burman does it and brings some resources to bear to achieve it...it's at least possible.

My problem with centering the discussion of Tom Burman around what is "defensible" is that it's much more subjective than the results achieved on the field/hardwood. Even all the stuff surrounding the elevation of Sawful is technically "defensible" for all the reasons that have been pointed out. I wish none of that mattered....I think a focus on the results these programs achieve is missing when we talk about the lack of bad press, academic metrics or increased donations (which will certainly dry up if the football team goes on a Koenning level collapse)
 
307bball said:
So....how would you contextualize the other areas that he's "done well" in? In your opinion, are they worth the squeeze of having had the competitive results achieved during his tenure?

Would you say that my idea of making competitive results in football and mbb the singular metric of success for the athletic director is unfair?

When looking at DC, Glenn and Bohl...the thing that jumps out to me is that the former two had pretty much petered out by years 4, 5 and in Glenn's case, 6. After the first two years Bohl never lost 7 games ... had a nice run after those first two years. The problem with looking at it like this is that it misses the point that until 2016, the Wyoming football program was, on average, a bottom third MWC team that made appearances in the middle to a Middle third MWC team that made appearances in the top. We look, with Sawful at the helm, to be going back to the status quo that existed before Bohl dragged us to the middle. To the extent that you can as an AD, Burman should have been pressuring Bohl to get his offensive game plan to a level that meant we could legitimately contend for championships....that probably pisses Bohl off, but if Burman does it and brings some resources to bear to achieve it...it's at least possible.

My problem with centering the discussion of Tom Burman around what is "defensible" is that it's much more subjective than the results achieved on the field/hardwood. Even all the stuff surrounding the elevation of Sawful is technically "defensible" for all the reasons that have been pointed out. I wish none of that mattered....I think a focus on the results these programs achieve is missing when we talk about the lack of bad press, academic metrics or increased donations (which will certainly dry up if the football team goes on a Koenning level collapse)
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DC hire is in no way comparable to PBJ hire. DC hire was nearly as equal results as Bohl through 5 years. Neither had championships but both FAR superior to PBJ.

For your first part, I don't know. Flip it. Would i be more satisfied with frequent 8+ win seasons, a chip or two, but frequent arrests and running a program full of criminals?

For me, I like that WYO has been a mostly clean program so kudos to TB for that.
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
DC hire is in no way comparable to PBJ hire.
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So...this is the part where I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. Is the AD’s job really just to “make good hires”? That seems to be the constant refrain on here. You mentioned you “don’t fault him much for the DC hire” — and sure, I don’t think anyone does. But evaluating a hire is always subjective — it’s easy to defend or criticize in hindsight — and that kind of debate misses the point entirely. Merely hiring DC or even Bohl isn’t really the issue.

The point is presiding over football and MBB programs that at least maintain the level of success Bohl achieved. If anyone actually knew that Sawful was going to be as, well, Sawful as he’s turned out to be, they should’ve made a fortune betting on (or against) the Pokes last year.

It feels like we’re still stuck in a 1980s–1990s mindset of how to run a program — as if “administrative ability” and “forming the right committee” are what move the needle. Over the last 30 years, programs that used to be our peers have blown past us by realizing one simple truth: winning games opens doors and creates opportunities, even for so-called “unknowns” (see: Boise State, USF, UCF).

Burman has fumbled his tenure away, and UW isn’t getting those years back — no matter how much anyone liked the DC or Linder hire. To be fair, I didn’t foresee what’s happened in college athletics when TB was first hired. But the fault goes higher. The BoT and UW President have been soothed by “good hires,” distracted by fundraising numbers, and comforted by the absence of police blotter headlines — all while the ability to actually win games in Laramie has withered and died.
 
You asked about Burman. He's not produced a winning environment. I believe the culture of mediocrity does exist.

To be fair, he has done some things well. If he followed Bohl with a fantastic hire, I'd actually say he's done decent on football.

I'm pretty certain it goes without saying that more wins are preferable to fewer wins.
 
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