P12 - MWC

[PAPoke]

Think of it this way and if you are in college how would it make you feel knowing that you are partially paying the salary of the student next to you in class. Would you be happy that you are paying fees to pay the student next to you? It’s bullshit and I’d be pissed as a student.

Student tuition pays the salary of the faculty, pays the salary of the janitors, the cafeteria workers, the rec center workers, the RAs, and athletes, who are all providing time and talent to the University. The market dictates what these jobs are worth. If Wyoming wants to attract the best people into these roles, they have to pay market prices. If the value of a basketball player was $15/hr, that's what they'd make.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Student tuition pays the salary of the faculty, pays the salary of the janitors, the cafeteria workers, the rec center workers, the RAs, and athletes, who are all providing time and talent to the University. The market dictates what these jobs are worth. If Wyoming wants to attract the best people into these roles, they have to pay market prices. If the value of a basketball player was $15/hr, that's what they'd make.

You’re really comparing the salaries paid to faculty to paying money directly to other students to compete in extracurricular activities?

My advice to students if their fees are going to directly pay players - go somewhere else where you get a better value for your money that is supposed to go toward education. Whether Wyoming has a decent football team or not will have ZERO impact on your education and ability to get into grad school, etc…

 

[307bball]

*deleted*

 

[307bball]

T

You’re really comparing the salaries paid to faculty to paying money directly to other students to compete in extracurricular activities?

My advice to students if their fees are going to directly pay players - go somewhere else where you get a better value for your money that is supposed to go toward education. Whether Wyoming has a decent football team or not will have ZERO impact on your education and ability to get into grad school, etc…

I mean...this is the death knell for anything close to what UW has historically achieved right? The amount of money that it takes is just not available from the "market" in Wyoming. It would have to become a priority for the state and they would have to fund it from fees or taxes. I don't know if it was you or somebody else who pointed out that we can either pay for this stuff and complain if we don't compete or we can decide not to pay and shut up as we sink to FCS (or whatever low level) oblivion....but we can't complain and not pay. The era of being a fan of a team competition with teams like BYU, Utah, Boise St is pretty much gone. I'm not as old a some on here .... What was it like Arizona/Arizona St left and was replaced by SDSU? So much of my being a Wyoming Cowboys fan is tied up with competing with CSU, BYU and Utah in the '90s...that is just gone.

There was a time when the Ivy's were the cream of the crop in college athletics...they made decisions about how they were going to support their athletic programs that resulted them largely being marginalized. UW is having that marginalization foisted upon them. If UW's athletic programs become something akin to the Dakotas and the Montana schools...a lot of the folks who follow UW athletics drift away. What does that mean for UW? I don't know totally. Do donation's to the school as a whole go down significantly?

 

[OrediggerPoke]

T

I mean...this is the death knell for anything close to what UW has historically achieved right? The amount of money that it takes is just not available from the "market" in Wyoming. It would have to become a priority for the state and they would have to fund it from fees or taxes. I don't know if it was you or somebody else who pointed out that we can either pay for this stuff and complain if we don't compete or we can decide not to pay and shut up as we sink to FCS (or whatever low level) oblivion....but we can't complain and not pay. The era of being a fan of a team competition with teams like BYU, Utah, Boise St is pretty much gone. I'm not as old a some on here .... What was it like Arizona/Arizona St left and was replaced by SDSU? So much of my being a Wyoming Cowboys fan is tied up with competing with CSU, BYU and Utah in the '90s...that is just gone.

There was a time when the Ivy's were the cream of the crop in college athletics...they made decisions about how they were going to support their athletic programs that resulted them largely being marginalized. UW is having that marginalization foisted upon them. If UW's athletic programs become something akin to the Dakotas and the Montana schools...a lot of the folks who follow UW athletics drift away. What does that mean for UW? I don't know totally. Do donation's to the school as a whole go down significantly?

I’ve never advocated for playing players. Complete opposite. I’ve said if others want to put their hard earned money so that some short time 18-22 year olds on campus can blow it on ridiculous things that is absolutely their prerogative. The reality is that paying players will be required to be a top team…that doesn’t make it a sound investment.

If the choice is public or student money going to paying players or joining the Big Sky, RMAC, etc…that’s not even a difficult choice. Montana rivalry here we come.

My undergraduate education is the exact reason so many job opportunities opened up for me. Every interview I was told ‘we are impressed by your degree from the Colorado School of Mines…that’s a great school’ Not once did anyone say ‘we are impressed and going to hire you because Colorado Mines has a nationally relevant football team.’ Quite the opposite - almost no one was even aware that Mines had a football team.

The University’s mission must be education and ensuring great job outcomes for students and building a local work force. The University’s mission should not be about conning youth to attend to lock in the dollars needed to pay players for a semi-professional football team.

PS - donations to Ivy schools are far from struggling. There is a reason the Ivy’s endowments dwarf ours.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

T

I mean...this is the death knell for anything close to what UW has historically achieved right? The amount of money that it takes is just not available from the "market" in Wyoming. It would have to become a priority for the state and they would have to fund it from fees or taxes. I don't know if it was you or somebody else who pointed out that we can either pay for this stuff and complain if we don't compete or we can decide not to pay and shut up as we sink to FCS (or whatever low level) oblivion....but we can't complain and not pay. The era of being a fan of a team competition with teams like BYU, Utah, Boise St is pretty much gone. I'm not as old a some on here .... What was it like Arizona/Arizona St left and was replaced by SDSU? So much of my being a Wyoming Cowboys fan is tied up with competing with CSU, BYU and Utah in the '90s...that is just gone.

Anyone at p4 level we won't and haven't been able to compete with. Reality is that nobody at the g6 level will. Sure, we'll all beat some lower level p4 teams but the gap at the top is going to be more and more obvious in the playoff.

I think top level of g6 ranks will see the biggest drop and likely a little more parity. There's not enough money in g6 to sustain big payments to players. We'll be just fine in whatever the g6 becomes even if we're not shelling out big bucks. If bsu isn't trying to bust down the big boy playoff, there donor money will soften quite a bit.

I would like someone to ask college administrators what their views are on the us economy and opportunity. Then ask them why they support a system where only the wealthy are allowed to compete?

 

[307bball]

Anyone at p4 level we won't and haven't been able to compete with. Reality is that nobody at the g6 level will. Sure, we'll all beat some lower level p4 teams but the gap at the top is going to be more and more obvious in the playoff.

I think top level of g6 ranks will see the biggest drop and likely a little more parity. There's not enough money in g6 to sustain big payments to players. We'll be just fine in whatever the g6 becomes even if we're not shelling out big bucks. If bsu isn't trying to bust down the big boy playoff, there donor money will soften quite a bit.

I would like someone to ask college administrators what their views are on the us economy and opportunity. Then ask them why they support a system where only the wealthy are allowed to compete?

I would love some college admin or legislature types wade into this and redefine the vision and mission for the modern environment. Don't see that happening.

But as it pertains to athletics, I don't know what you mean by "just fine in whatever the g6 becomes". To me, it looks like, in the same way that we don't really compete with Utah or BYU anymore, teams like CSU and USU have set themselves up to be in a competitive strata above UW 5 to 10 years from now.

 

[PorkerPoke]

I would love some college admin or legislature types wade into this and redefine the vision and mission for the modern environment.

It would be a great discussion about the need for more and more funding with continued increases to the average student in tuition costs while explaining how dumping volumes of funds into athletics will benefit them.

 

[PAPoke]

You’re really comparing the salaries paid to faculty to paying money directly to other students to compete in extracurricular activities?

My advice to students if their fees are going to directly pay players - go somewhere else where you get a better value for your money that is supposed to go toward education. Whether Wyoming has a decent football team or not will have ZERO impact on your education and ability to get into grad school, etc…

Students have been subsidizing “extracurriculars” and their associated costs forever... Club sports, student orgs, marching band, political groups, you name it. Hell, even the coaches have been paid, in part, out of the Intercollegiate Athletics student fee.

Now, whether you like that athletes are classified as employees is another debate, but it’s where we’re headed, legally and culturally. And if we want Wyoming Athletics to be relevant in that new landscape, whatever that looks like, there's a cost of doing business. Ticket sales and donations alone won’t cut it.

Also, it’s short-sighted to assume these payments are wasted or self-serving. Many student-athletes are using their NIL earnings or stipends to create scholarships in their hometowns, support their families, or lift themselves out of generational poverty. That kind of impact is education, and IMO aligns with the Mission of the University.

We may not agree on whether that’s a smart use of money. But pretending it’s some unprecedented outrage for student fees to support campus-wide programming, or for universities to pay the talent that drives visibility and revenue, just isn’t realistic.

 

[PorkerPoke]

There's not enough money in g6 to sustain big payments to players. We'll be just fine in whatever the g6 becomes even if we're not shelling out big bucks.

The way I can foresee it is eventually the “power” level will be its own entity. The next level will become similar to what we have known over the years. Wyoming will be just fine in the lower level (the new G) and able to continue at the .500 or below level on a consistent basis. It’s no deviation really from the past 20+ years.

I base this on the fact that I have never heard a declaration that Wyoming is going to focus on having competitive successful sports programs. Like the former AD Jack Graham or not, I was invited to a CSU booster party around 2012 where he declared that they were going to emphasize becoming a player in the power struggle. It’s taken awhile but you can at least see the results of the pursuit.

We will know it’s over when NMSU blocks us from joining the CUSA if the MWC implodes.

 

[TheRealUW]

You’re really comparing the salaries paid to faculty to paying money directly to other students to compete in extracurricular activities?

My advice to students if their fees are going to directly pay players - go somewhere else where you get a better value for your money that is supposed to go toward education. Whether Wyoming has a decent football team or not will have ZERO impact on your education and ability to get into grad school, etc…

This is the problem that having professional sports teams affiliated with state funded public universities presents. The obvious fix is to decouple "college athletics" from state funded universities, but the logistics of accomplishing that are very complex.

We are in the odd position right now where previously amateur college athletes rapidly transitioned to professional athletes earning relatively high salaries seemingly overnight. Nobody wants to call the players what they obviously are - employees of the universities they play for - because it would mean financial ruin for a lot of the smaller schools and would cannibalize other collegiate sports outside of football and men's basketball. Despite these negative consequences, we are still headed towards a reality where college athletes are treated just like all of the other professional sporting leagues in this country - as employees. There is really no way around it.

 

[PAPoke]

This is the problem that having professional sports teams affiliated with state funded public universities presents. The obvious fix is to decouple "college athletics" from state funded universities, but the logistics of accomplishing that are very complex.

We are in the odd position right now where previously amateur college athletes rapidly transitioned to professional athletes earning relatively high salaries seemingly overnight. Nobody wants to call the players what they obviously are - employees of the universities they play for - because it would mean financial ruin for a lot of the smaller schools and would cannibalize other collegiate sports outside of football and men's basketball. Despite these negative consequences, we are still headed towards a reality where college athletes are treated just like all of the other professional sporting leagues in this country - as employees. There is really no way around it.

Couldn’t agree more. The NCAA and university leadership backed themselves into this corner by clinging to the illusion of amateurism for decades.

Instead of proactively creating a model that respected athletes as revenue-generating professionals, they fought tooth and nail to maintain control, and now the system’s cracking under its hypocrisy.


College athletes are employees in everything but name. They generate millions (or billions), follow strict schedules, represent institutional brands, and risk injury every day. But because schools and conferences didn't want to share the pie or think through the implications, we’ve now defaulted into a chaotic version of professionalism with none of the structure. NIL was just the tip of the iceberg; the actual employment status is next, whether schools like it or not. NIL + Transferportal, both good things in their own rights, but together, without much of a plan, have college athletics in this SHITuation.

Decoupling big-time athletics from public institutions is probably the cleanest fix long-term, but as you said, the logistics are a nightmare. Still, the alternative, pretending this is still a student-first endeavor, isn’t fooling anyone anymore. The clock ran out on "student-athlete" the moment the money got this big.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

This is the problem that having professional sports teams affiliated with state funded public universities presents. The obvious fix is to decouple "college athletics" from state funded universities, but the logistics of accomplishing that are very complex.

We are in the odd position right now where previously amateur college athletes rapidly transitioned to professional athletes earning relatively high salaries seemingly overnight. Nobody wants to call the players what they obviously are - employees of the universities they play for - because it would mean financial ruin for a lot of the smaller schools and would cannibalize other collegiate sports outside of football and men's basketball. Despite these negative consequences, we are still headed towards a reality where college athletes are treated just like all of the other professional sporting leagues in this country - as employees. There is really no way around it.

There is absolutely a way around it. Competing in a league of like minded schools where athletes are not professionals/employees. If that is the Big Sky, RMAC or whatever that may be a much more sensible option than a state sponsored professional team.

I’m not too worried about a state sponsored professional team to be honest. I see little chance the legislature here allowing it to happen. Wyoming’s fiscally conservative values will likely prevail in the direction we go with things.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Couldn’t agree more. The NCAA and university leadership backed themselves into this corner by clinging to the illusion of amateurism for decades.

Instead of proactively creating a model that respected athletes as revenue-generating professionals, they fought tooth and nail to maintain control, and now the system’s cracking under its hypocrisy.


College athletes are employees in everything but name. They generate millions (or billions), follow strict schedules, represent institutional brands, and risk injury every day. But because schools and conferences didn't want to share the pie or think through the implications, we’ve now defaulted into a chaotic version of professionalism with none of the structure. NIL was just the tip of the iceberg; the actual employment status is next, whether schools like it or not. NIL + Transferportal, both good things in their own rights, but together, without much of a plan, have college athletics in this SHITuation.

Decoupling big-time athletics from public institutions is probably the cleanest fix long-term, but as you said, the logistics are a nightmare. Still, the alternative, pretending this is still a student-first endeavor, isn’t fooling anyone anymore. The clock ran out on "student-athlete" the moment the money got this big.

Apples and oranges comparing Ohio State with Wyoming. Athletes aren’t generating much of anything here…maybe enough to cover the overhead in a really good year. If they can go make money at Ohio State let them. There will still be athletes that come here for the education and scholarship (whatever our level or conference makeup may be).

 

[ragtimejoe1]

teams like CSU and USU have set themselves up to be in a competitive strata above UW 5 to 10 years from now.

How? Joining another g6 conference that is as disadvantaged as we are? How exactly are they going to pull away? We've already spent way less than csu and will be on par with usu even with their tv money. The last few g6 reps have been MWC, cusa, aac, and aac.

G6 success will depend on administration, scheduling, and coaches.

You're greatly overestimating the value of the pac.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

. But pretending it’s some unprecedented outrage for student fees to support campus-wide programming, or for universities to pay the talent that drives visibility and revenue, just isn’t realistic.

Paying a student 12 or 15 bucks an hour or student activities that facilitate their journey to graduation and fulfilling the land grant mission is vastly different than paying a lot of money to players who will likely transfer and never graduate from UW. Paying them more than we pay police, nurses, teachers, professors, etc. is asinine.

Virtually everyone in the g6 ranks will be in the same boat. wsu from the pac has an athletic dept that's 100 mill in the hole. I don't understand why people think g6 teams are all of a sudden going to rain cash down on athletes. Hell, the opposite is more likely. Some P4 teams are more likely to say this is nonsense and not sustainable.

 

[OrediggerPoke]

Paying a student 12 or 15 bucks an hour or student activities that facilitate their journey to graduation and fulfilling the land grant mission is vastly different than paying a lot of money to players who will likely transfer and never graduate from UW. Paying them more than we pay police, nurses, teachers, professors, etc. is asinine.

Virtually everyone in the g6 ranks will be in the same boat. wsu from the pac has an athletic dept that's 100 mill in the hole. I don't understand why people think g6 teams are all of a sudden going to rain cash down on athletes. Hell, the opposite is more likely. Some P4 teams are more likely to say this is nonsense and not sustainable.

We don’t seem to agree on much. But very much agree with you here.

 

[PorkerPoke]

Apples and oranges comparing Ohio State with Wyoming. Athletes aren’t generating much of anything here…maybe enough to cover the overhead in a really good year. If they can go make money at Ohio State let them. There will still be athletes that come here for the education and scholarship (whatever our level or conference makeup may be).

Agree.

Read the criteria for student athletes in the Big Sky. Look at the number of NAIA and D2 and even FCS programs looking to move up one step. There are a lot of athletes - just not enough to compete with the programs able to run pro level style recruiting $$$.

 

[307bball]

How? Joining another g6 conference that is as disadvantaged as we are? How exactly are they going to pull away? We've already spent way less than csu and will be on par with usu even with their tv money. The last few g6 reps have been MWC, cusa, aac, and aac.

I guess I'm asserting that whatever group of schools that UW ends up in will be seen as "less than" in comparison to a group of schools that includes Gonzaga, WSU, BSU and Oregon St. It's already a no-brainer that Wyoming's group of schools won't make as much in media money.... They pull away by just being in a group that is regarded more highly by media and, more importantly, recruits. Whatever is spent is not really the measure of success (at least not mine). I'm interested in winning some conference titles and having some postseason success.

Is it fair to say that you predict Wyoming will be "just fine" going forward? If so....I'm heartened by that even while I don't know totally what you mean by that. If you mean, competitive with UTEP, SJSU, and Grand Canyon then you and I disagree on what is meant by "just fine". You have said that it's unrealistic to think we will compete with BSU....I agree but it still sticks in my craw. I'm not as confident as you that 15 years from now, we will be on CSU or USU's level...in terms of budgets, results, prestige.....however you want to measure it. I'll follow the outcomes and be happily proven wrong if, in fact, we end up on their level or better.

G6 success will depend on administration, scheduling, and coaches.

You're greatly overestimating the value of the pac.

I'm reading the same information as you are about the "value" of the newly formed Pac....I'm making no estimation. My guess is that they are spending as much as they can as fast as they can to be included at the highest level they can....just like I wish we could do....but we can't. We don't have the money, first and foremost, and we probably don't have the political climate either.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I guess I'm asserting that whatever group of schools that UW ends up in will be seen as "less than" in comparison to a group of schools that includes Gonzaga, WSU, BSU and Oregon St. It's already a no-brainer that Wyoming's group of schools won't make as much in media money.... They pull away by just being in a group that is regarded more highly by media and, more importantly, recruits. Whatever is spent is not really the measure of success (at least not mine). I'm interested in winning some conference titles and having some postseason success.

Is it fair to say that you predict Wyoming will be "just fine" going forward? If so....I'm heartened by that even while I don't know totally what you mean by that. If you mean, competitive with UTEP, SJSU, and Grand Canyon then you and I disagree on what is meant by "just fine". You have said that it's unrealistic to think we will compete with BSU....I agree but it still sticks in my craw. I'm not as confident as you that 15 years from now, we will be on CSU or USU's level...in terms of budgets, results, prestige.....however you want to measure it. I'll follow the outcomes and be happily proven wrong if, in fact, we end up on their level or better.



I'm reading the same information as you are about the "value" of the newly formed Pac....I'm making no estimation. My guess is that they are spending as much as they can as fast as they can to be included at the highest level they can....just like I wish we could do....but we can't. We don't have the money, first and foremost, and we probably don't have the political climate either.

I think in 15 years, we're more likely to be competitive with bsu if they are in the g6 level. I don't see where you think all this money is going to come from? wsu and osu, if not invited to p4, are about to experience a huge regression associated with their new g6 label.

Viewed differently by who? Most everyone views the g6 as interchangeable sans maybe bsu. Liberty from cusa crashed the party. Parity in g6 is about to increase not decrease.

How exactly are all these g6 teams going to generate all this money to all of a sudden pay up? Most are all heavily subsidized by taxes already. csu already outspends us significantly and hasn't jumped ahead.

I honestly think most of this is in your head. The media perception will be based on that year's performance like it always is. Outside of regional bickering/banter on message boards, it's not going to matter to most cfb fans.

A good coach at WYO will keep us very competitive within the g6 level.