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Accepting of mediocrity

ragtimejoe1 said:
Yes. The loan could be structured for complete payout over 5 years with balloon payments after 2.

I think Bohl was near 2 mill, so there should be room in the ad budget to pay another coach a mill or over + pay PBJ. The deficiency should be less than a mill/year which can be overcome with a loan from a foundational account.

There's ways to make it happen. Failing to do so is a signal that UW accepts this.
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LawPoke said:
While the writing is on the wall that a change is needed this year - I just don't see Burman and UW pulling the trigger. They are never quick to diagnose and/or act on a clear loser. We languish in the realm of being 'ol WYO that is patient and tries to be nice to the old dog that just needs to be put out of its misery. We will invite another round of ugly departures along the way, but we will be able to say that we tried and saved a dollar or two in buyouts. Goody.

No, I see Sawvel getting another year at least. Burman will give him a stern talking to and suggest that his offense is crap and his defense regressed and engage in some "don't you think you should think about rearranging the deck chairs on your nice big boat, Jay" sort of pabulum. Sawvel will fire someone or a couple of someones. The "doing plastic surgery on Ernest Borgnine" kind of fix won't work. We will see mass departures and next year will be akin to wisdom tooth extraction without the benefit of anesthesia. Then we will really be in a bind. The new boxes will be empty. The old boxes will be empty. The stadium will fill the first week and then be a ghost-town (Edwards-era attendance, but in the War). We can all see it coming and we know it is as certain an outcome as Craig Bohl grumbling about the advent of the forward pass every day when he wakes up. But firing a guy after a single year of horrific football and decision-making is not the UW way.

What should happen: Burman should retire and acknowledge he is worn out and we need a change. As his last act, he should fire Sawvel. We should then find an AD that only cares about winning and is ruthless about it. He should have a pad of pink slips and a trunk full of moving boxes to root out and replace dead weight and old ideas. Get a new head of CJC/1WYO who can sell icicles to eskimos and smooze while the new AD guts the old way of doing things. Take some of the money from CSU out for a spin to find a transformational coach and pay them accordingly. Tell the President and BOT to ignore the screams from disgruntled fat cats and the endless array of Karens and move forward. In my view, this is literally our last gasp - our last shot at greatness. We should act and invest accordingly. Now is not the time for half-measures and worrying about hurt feelings and stepping on toes.

Now that I have urinated into the wind and engaged in the functional equivalent of having sex without the benefit of a partner, I at least was warm for a second...cause none of this is happening.
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There isn't a chance in hell of him retiring if he's making $550k per year and not working very hard. He will just keep showing up, hiring and firing people, pointing to the rise of women's basketball as our flagship sport. It's basically just a part time job where he gets good seats to the games. (As much as everyone including myself may like Sundance, it's likely to be a pretty rough season for men's hoops). Unfortunately, the BOT and legislature are filled with out of touch good old boys who don't do anything. Nor does the University President. It's total incompetence at its finest.
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
The excuse machine has been full effect for nearly 2 decades and not just on this board.

Ecu and southern miss have demonstrated the intestinal fortitude to try to move forward. We're exactly where we deserve to be with our approach to athletics.
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My exposure to the conversation around Wyo athletics is primarily this message board outside of my family and friends. Outside of post-game comments and interviews, press coverage of UW athletics is super banal so I really don't pay attention to it.

Do you see a lot of pro-Burman discussion on this message board? As best as I can see, there are those who give him the benefit of the doubt on any given new hire but when it inevitably fails...nobody is defending him. Could you describe the "excuse machine" on this board?
 
307bball said:
My exposure to the conversation around Wyo athletics is primarily this message board outside of my family and friends. Outside of post-game comments and interviews, press coverage of UW athletics is super banal so I really don't pay attention to it.

Do you see a lot of pro-Burman discussion on this message board? As best as I can see, there are those who give him the benefit of the doubt on any given new hire but when it inevitably fails...nobody is defending him. Could you describe the "excuse machine" on this board?
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There's lots and probably more suited to the off-season banter.
 
OrediggerPoke said:
I can’t recall a single person on here posting ‘Burman is great’ or I believe ‘Burman does a great job’ or ‘Burman handles hiring processes very well.’
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There's lots in reference to the excuse machine surrounding WYO over the years.

This board specifically, there's some. Burman support? Same answer *cough cough, poster formerly known as WYO1016*.
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
There's lots in reference to the excuse machine surrounding WYO over the years.

This board specifically, there's some. Burman support? Same answer *cough cough, poster formerly known as WYO1016*.
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You are not being very clear....I have seen plenty of discussion that describes and opines about the challenges surrounding success at UW from a coaching and administrative point of view....do you mean to call any mention of those challenges part of the "excuse machine"?

I, like Oredigger, do not recall a person mentioning Burman in a positive light in reference to his overall job. I'm sure If I sifted through the messages I could find somebody saying he made this or that good decision but his image is thoroughly tarnished as far as I can tell. Even if there were one or two people who defended him zealously (and there is not), that hardly qualifies as an "excuse machine".

I suspect your "wait until the offseason to discuss this" is an attempt to avoid being questioned on what you are actually saying.
 
307bball said:
I suspect your "wait until the offseason to discuss this" is an attempt to avoid being questioned on what you are actually saying.
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Not really. I just don't care enough to go back through years of posts to demonstrate.

Believe what you want. You centered it to this board not me. The excuse machine runs rampant at WYO. Almost any Burman interview is littered with them.
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
Not really. I just don't care enough to go back through years of posts to demonstrate.

Believe what you want. You centered it to this board not me. The excuse machine runs rampant at WYO. Almost any Burman interview is littered with them.
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I did center it in this board. I don't care what Burman says in an interview. I'm trying to get you to identify and point me towards the Burman support.

I'm perplexed by your claim that there is widespread support for Tom Burman. If your evidence is his interviews.... I'm mean...I guess I'm not surprised that Tom Burman supports Tom Burman.

If you are talking about the Wyoming fan base... They fall into two categories when it comes to Burman. Category one is the largest.... These are the casual fans who are not in this message board and they couldn't pick him out of a lineup. Category two is smaller and much more tuned in. This group's opinion ranges from thinking he's an empty suit to outright despising his every move. Again the best I've heard said about him online is some version of "the guy sucks and we should find somebody better.... But it probably won't make any difference competitively"...

Perhaps you mean the general media coverage of the athletic department? I thought they were mostly just a mouthpiece to pass on the company line.... That is not support, that is just a press release.
 
307bball said:
I did center it in this board. I don't care what Burman says in an interview. I'm trying to get you to identify and point me towards the Burman support.

I'm perplexed by your claim that there is widespread support for Tom Burman. If your evidence is his interviews.... I'm mean...I guess I'm not surprised that Tom Burman supports Tom Burman.

If you are talking about the Wyoming fan base... They fall into two categories when it comes to Burman. Category one is the largest.... These are the casual fans who are not in this message board and they couldn't pick him out of a lineup. Category two is smaller and much more tuned in. This group's opinion ranges from thinking he's an empty suit to outright despising his every move. Again the best I've heard said about him online is some version of "the guy sucks and we should find somebody better.... But it probably won't make any difference competitively"...

Perhaps you mean the general media coverage of the athletic department? I thought they were mostly just a mouthpiece to pass on the company line.... That is not support, that is just a press release.
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Burman is still employed as ad. That's supporting mediocrity.

If the board pulse interests you, go back to the first post and read every one. If you do that and tell me there is no support for Burman, I'll believe you.
 
Just a totally off base comment that I feel might be somehow relevant. I was looking at total win loss records for FBS teams. Of the 135, the top 95 teams are above .500 winning percentage. About 40 teams, including Wyoming, have all time losing records. Wyoming is about 40 games under .500. The best teams, like Ohio State and Michigan, are more than 600 games above .500! They will never, ever be losing programs...even if they lose every game for the next 40 years. And the Wyoming's may never get above .500. While I might be silly for bringing this up, my point is that winning comes hard for programs like Wyoming. AD's, coaches, etc. have been playing the "transfer portal" game for years. A good AD or coach in these programs move up to places where winning is a given. It is a fact of life. Personally, I have no idea whether Tom Burman is good or bad. I like some stuff that has happened during his tenure. I like the War Memorial stadium and the high altitude center. I was happy with Coach Bohl. I think Sundance Wicks is going to do great. But, we have a 100 years of playing sub .500 ball. Has he done that much worse in an environment that has changed so much? How does someone recruit kids and coaches to come to Laramie? I love Laramie and don't feel that way. But some do...fame, fortune, beaches, co-eds. Tough stuff being made even more tough with NIL. Green Bay had this problem at the NFL level until Brett Favre and Reggie White showed up. It was a remote outpost. A place of frozen tundra. Troy Aikman made it clear that if Green Bay drafted him, he would sit out. In any event, I think we as Wyoming fans are really happy when someone actually wants to be in Laramie and enjoys the Cowboy Culture. We accept some mediocrity because they fit...and who else would? I do see everyone's point but we also have to admit that this is hard stuff. To manage, recruit, win year in and year out at a place like Wyoming. A hundred years of football says it is nearly impossible. I have no idea what the solution is. But a Barry Alvarez (really dislike him and the Badgers) isn't hanging in Laramie for 20 years. The incredibly surprising statistic that I read was Boise State is 300 games above .500. I think that changes recruiting on all levels dramatically. It almost seems like we are all praying for a martyr. Someone made a comment about a Bill Bellichek coming to Laramie to prove he really is a football genius. It ain't likely to happen. Is it true that Bohl needed to win his last game to be at .500 and with the win, he became Wyoming's winningest coach? If so, doesn't Burman get some credit for that? There is an honest debate that we can have here on both sides. Sorry, back into hibernation.
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
Burman is still employed as ad. That's supporting mediocrity.

If the board pulse interests you, go back to the first post and read every one. If you do that and tell me there is no support for Burman, I'll believe you.
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If it didn't interest me I would not be here. I trust my memory of nearly zero support for Burman enough that I don't have to trawl through old posts just to convince myself of the lack of said support. Your statement that "There's lots in reference to the excuse machine surrounding WYO over the years." continues to confuse. I remain convinced that you view any discussion that does not center Tom Burman as the sole cause of UW's athletic woes, as missing the point...and these are discussions between people who don't even think he's any good!

Now....who controls the decision on Burmans employment? Is it fans? Forum-dwellers? It's not. It's the UW president and BOT I assume. I already described what I think it going on there and I'm not against short handing that to "accepting mediocrity" even though it falls short as an entire explanation. Even with the benefit of hindsight, it's difficult to imagine the series of perfect steps during Burman's tenure that no doubt would have resulted in UW being in the athletic department echelon of schools in the BSU, SDSU, and Fresno range. It could have been better than we have been but that's not saying a lot. The genius Prez/AD combo that you pointed to in the case of BSU definitely helped...but so many other things went right that were not in their control. In the end, Burman will have presided of a diminishingly relevant UW athletic department...that's his legacy. I don't think very many people contest that except for Burman himself perhaps.

The bucket of things that sucked for UW athletics is a big one. Burman being a replacement level, at best, athletic director is in that bucket. So to is a UW president and higher administration that did not appropriately focus on athletics. If you fix those two things, it's still not a good day to be a Cowboy's fan in 2024 and beyond.
 
Let's make this easy. If the excuse machine were true, our situation would improve with weakening conference. It didn't.
Facts always get in the way
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
Let's make this easy. If the excuse machine were true, our situation would improve with weakening conference. It didn't.
Facts always get in the way
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The excuse machine? Are you referring to Burman's interviews? Do yourself a favor and tune those out.
 
307bball said:
The excuse machine? Are you referring to Burman's interviews? Do yourself a favor and tune those out.
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Why? He's the mouthpiece for UW athletics. His excuse machine is what has driven the culture at WYO. His excuse machine has been effective at lowering the bar.

Back to the point. Not doing something with Burman and PBJ perpetuates a culture of mediocrity (really worse) which means UW accepts that culture.
 
ragtimejoe1 said:
Why? He's the mouthpiece for UW athletics. His excuse machine is what has driven the culture at WYO. His excuse machine has been effective at lowering the bar.

Back to the point. Not doing something with Burman and PBJ perpetuates a culture of mediocrity (really worse) which means UW accepts that culture.
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To criticize him for admin-speak is like complaining that water is wet. People in that position make the noises they make and when they hit on good hires and good policies we all think they are geniuses. They aren't....even the ones at BSU.

We needed a better admin/coach back in the late '90's. Now it's too late to be anything but better in whatever conference we end up in. Doesn't seem like Burman can make that happen. Can a better guy?...I sure hope so but I have my doubts.
 
307bball said:
If it didn't interest me I would not be here. I trust my memory of nearly zero support for Burman enough that I don't have to trawl through old posts just to convince myself of the lack of said support. Your statement that "There's lots in reference to the excuse machine surrounding WYO over the years." continues to confuse. I remain convinced that you view any discussion that does not center Tom Burman as the sole cause of UW's athletic woes, as missing the point...and these are discussions between people who don't even think he's any good!

Now....who controls the decision on Burmans employment? Is it fans? Forum-dwellers? It's not. It's the UW president and BOT I assume. I already described what I think it going on there and I'm not against short handing that to "accepting mediocrity" even though it falls short as an entire explanation. Even with the benefit of hindsight, it's difficult to imagine the series of perfect steps during Burman's tenure that no doubt would have resulted in UW being in the athletic department echelon of schools in the BSU, SDSU, and Fresno range. It could have been better than we have been but that's not saying a lot. The genius Prez/AD combo that you pointed to in the case of BSU definitely helped...but so many other things went right that were not in their control. In the end, Burman will have presided of a diminishingly relevant UW athletic department...that's his legacy. I don't think very many people contest that except for Burman himself perhaps.

The bucket of things that sucked for UW athletics is a big one. Burman being a replacement level, at best, athletic director is in that bucket. So to is a UW president and higher administration that did not appropriately focus on athletics. If you fix those two things, it's still not a good day to be a Cowboy's fan in 2024 and beyond.
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I know this is a football forum, but if you are a basketball fan Burman has been the worst thing to happen to Wyoming basketball. The in conference winning % is 37% during his tenure. His primary focus has been football and it has been at the expense of basketball. The revolving door of coaches, extensions and buyouts has deteriorated the program to the point that the best / only option for a coach was someone that A) had a great attitude, B) was from Wyoming and C) had one season of moderate success at the Division I level. I like Sundance, but 20 or even 10 years ago, that resume would not have gotten him the job.

UW is 215th in the first KenPom rankings of the 2024 season -- dead last out of all MWC teams.
 
LawPoke said:
While the writing is on the wall that a change is needed this year - I just don't see Burman and UW pulling the trigger. They are never quick to diagnose and/or act on a clear loser. We languish in the realm of being 'ol WYO that is patient and tries to be nice to the old dog that just needs to be put out of its misery. We will invite another round of ugly departures along the way, but we will be able to say that we tried and saved a dollar or two in buyouts. Goody.

No, I see Sawvel getting another year at least. Burman will give him a stern talking to and suggest that his offense is crap and his defense regressed and engage in some "don't you think you should think about rearranging the deck chairs on your nice big boat, Jay" sort of pabulum. Sawvel will fire someone or a couple of someones. The "doing plastic surgery on Ernest Borgnine" kind of fix won't work. We will see mass departures and next year will be akin to wisdom tooth extraction without the benefit of anesthesia. Then we will really be in a bind. The new boxes will be empty. The old boxes will be empty. The stadium will fill the first week and then be a ghost-town (Edwards-era attendance, but in the War). We can all see it coming and we know it is as certain an outcome as Craig Bohl grumbling about the advent of the forward pass every day when he wakes up. But firing a guy after a single year of horrific football and decision-making is not the UW way.

What should happen: Burman should retire and acknowledge he is worn out and we need a change. As his last act, he should fire Sawvel. We should then find an AD that only cares about winning and is ruthless about it. He should have a pad of pink slips and a trunk full of moving boxes to root out and replace dead weight and old ideas. Get a new head of CJC/1WYO who can sell icicles to eskimos and smooze while the new AD guts the old way of doing things. Take some of the money from CSU out for a spin to find a transformational coach and pay them accordingly. Tell the President and BOT to ignore the screams from disgruntled fat cats and the endless array of Karens and move forward. In my view, this is literally our last gasp - our last shot at greatness. We should act and invest accordingly. Now is not the time for half-measures and worrying about hurt feelings and stepping on toes.

Now that I have urinated into the wind and engaged in the functional equivalent of having sex without the benefit of a partner, I at least was warm for a second...cause none of this is happening.
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One of the overlooked realities is that it's highly unlikely Seidel or the unaccountable BOT is going to let someone go who only has two more years to hit the magic number of 20. Even perennial Top 20 programs would be loathe to pull that trigger. Short of him slaughtering puppies for a halftime show, I don't see them acting other than "suggesting" 20 years is a good exit point...
 
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