Accepting of mediocrity

[ragtimejoe1]

It’s over 4 years unless you’re counting the exit fee money scheduled to begin to come in June 2026.

Yes. The loan could be structured for complete payout over 5 years with balloon payments after 2.

I think Bohl was near 2 mill, so there should be room in the ad budget to pay another coach a mill or over + pay PBJ. The deficiency should be less than a mill/year which can be overcome with a loan from a foundational account.

There's ways to make it happen. Failing to do so is a signal that UW accepts this.

 

[307bball]

There's ways to make it happen. Failing to do so is a signal that UW accepts this.

This is the leap that I think I'm not really willing to make. I think there is complexity here that reasonable people who do not "accept mediocrity" can differ on. I think the financials of this are so bad that hands are tied.

I don't think anybody sees a way to competitiveness for the next 2 years or so. Burman's original sin of being unable to identify good coaches was compounded by some really questionable decisions as it relates to guarantees and buyouts. Burman hires bad coaches...that alone is enough to move on from him....but if that were all he did, and he did not tether UW to those bad coaches financially...we would at least be able to move on from them quickly. The combo of hiring bad coaches and bad guarantees is devastating.

I don't really know enough about loans from the foundation....I would assume there would be very high levels of political pushback on this? I really don't know.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

This is the leap that I think I'm not really willing to make. I think there is complexity here that reasonable people who do not "accept mediocrity" can differ on. I think the financials of this are so bad that hands are tied.

I don't think anybody sees a way to competitiveness for the next 2 years or so. Burman's original sin of being unable to identify good coaches was compounded by some really questionable decisions as it relates to guarantees and buyouts. Burman hires bad coaches...that alone is enough to move on from him....but if that were all he did, and he did not tether UW to those bad coaches financially...we would at least be able to move on from them quickly. The combo of hiring bad coaches and bad guarantees is devastating.

I don't really know enough about loans from the foundation....I would assume there would be very high levels of political pushback on this? I really don't know.

Foundation accounts or others at a university can lend money as long as terms cover returns conducive to expectations of the account (i.e. 4-6% return or whatever it is). There are a lot of ways to make the loans work and it's actually not uncommon.

I'm not sure why you guys are hung up on the financials? For ease, let's say Bohl was at 2 mill and PBJ is at 1 mill. Bohl's salary savings is already in the ad budget. That saves 1 mill this year which could be used in buyout next year. Hire new coach at 1.25 mill and you're saving 750k from Bohl's. Means you're ballpark short 250k/year for 4 years or 1 mill.

Between pending buyouts, loans, or simple budget redistribution, UW can easily fire PBJ.

Accepting mediocrity.

 

[307bball]

Foundation accounts or others at a university can lend money as long as terms cover returns conducive to expectations of the account (i.e. 4-6% return or whatever it is). There are a lot of ways to make the loans work and it's actually not uncommon.

I'm not sure why you guys are hung up on the financials? For ease, let's say Bohl was at 2 mill and PBJ is at 1 mill. Bohl's salary savings is already in the ad budget. That saves 1 mill this year which could be used in buyout next year. Hire new coach at 1.25 mill and you're saving 750k from Bohl's. Means you're ballpark short 250k/year for 4 years or 1 mill.

Between pending buyouts, loans, or simple budget redistribution, UW can easily fire PBJ.

Accepting mediocrity.

As far as being "hung up" on financials goes...I merely think the financial pressures are largely explanatory for what they decide to do w/Sawvell after this season. I would assume that loans from the foundation are the subject of political discussion...I know that there are loud voices that don't really like that athletics is supported like it is. I assume those voices would make the case that this money would be better loaned to more "academic" pursuits....again...pure speculation. I just have not heard of the athletic department borrowing from the foundation...but maybe they should start.

Back to "accepting mediocrity"....I assume Sawvell is free from this accusation? I mean....he seems to be a terrible coach but I assume he's doing all he is capable of ...which is not much. What about Burman? Again, he seems to me like he's a bad athletic director. My sense is he's trying to make things better but his hiring track record is abysmal. I don't think he "accepts mediocrity" as much as he just does not know how to succeed. This brings us to people like the UW president and the BOT. This is the one that that I suppose you could make the best case for "accepting mediocrity. I also don't think they know what it takes to succeed in athletics but that is not really their job right? These are people who are looking at the big picture at UW and athletics is very visible but it's a small part of the overall university. I think they care now that the football program is going off a cliff but as long as it's not a house fire...I bet they are just fine with a Craig Bohl level of program. Is that what you mean by "accepting mediocrity"? I'm interested in what that means to you.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

As far as being "hung up" on financials goes...I merely think the financial pressures are largely explanatory for what they decide to do w/Sawvell after this season. I would assume that loans from the foundation are the subject of political discussion...I know that there are loud voices that don't really like that athletics is supported like it is. I assume those voices would make the case that this money would be better loaned to more "academic" pursuits....again...pure speculation. I just have not heard of the athletic department borrowing from the foundation...but maybe they should start.

Back to "accepting mediocrity"....I assume Sawvell is free from this accusation? I mean....he seems to be a terrible coach but I assume he's doing all he is capable of ...which is not much. What about Burman? Again, he seems to me like he's a bad athletic director. My sense is he's trying to make things better but his hiring track record is abysmal. I don't think he "accepts mediocrity" as much as he just does not know how to succeed. This brings us to people like the UW president and the BOT. This is the one that that I suppose you could make the best case for "accepting mediocrity. I also don't think they know what it takes to succeed in athletics but that is not really their job right? These are people who are looking at the big picture at UW and athletics is very visible but it's a small part of the overall university. I think they care now that the football program is going off a cliff but as long as it's not a house fire...I bet they are just fine with a Craig Bohl level of program. Is that what you mean by "accepting mediocrity"? I'm interested in what that means to you.

Trust me. Loans to university groups from university accounts is not unusual, illegal, or all that controversial as long as the lending account goals are achieved.

The financial hand tie is nothing more than message board lore. Created here and only a reality here. Bohl's former salary alone almost covers buyout + new coach salary. I honestly doubt it's even brought up other than by message board posters.

The real reason he won't be fired is because it would be Burman admitting he was wrong.

Like I said in this thread, if UW allows this to continue, that is accepting mediocrity despite the wyonation financial crunch theories about how 750k would cripple a 48 mill athletic budget much less a 630 mill university budget. Not doing anything is endorsing the job being done.

 

[307bball]

Trust me. Loans to university groups from university accounts is not unusual, illegal, or all that controversial as long as the lending account goals are achieved.

The financial hand tie is nothing more than message board lore. Created here and only a reality here. Bohl's former salary alone almost covers buyout + new coach salary. I honestly doubt it's even brought up other than by message board posters.

The real reason he won't be fired is because it would be Burman admitting he was wrong.

Like I said in this thread, if UW allows this to continue, that is accepting mediocrity despite the wyonation financial crunch theories about how 750k would cripple a 48 mill athletic budget much less a 630 mill university budget. Not doing anything is endorsing the job being done.

Too simplistic....merely saying those things doesn't make them true. This is starting to feel like another of those conspiratorial tales you like to weave. Entertaining with it's own internal logic but ultimately difficult to map onto reality.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Too simplistic....merely saying those things doesn't make them true. This is starting to feel like another of those conspiratorial tales you like to weave. Entertaining with it's own internal logic but ultimately difficult to map onto reality.

What's too simplistic? The buyout? If you don't think the athletic department has salary savings from Bohl or that it can't borrow, I don't know what to tell you. That's not a conspiracy at all.

Very few other programs would tolerate this from an ad and now a football coach. It's a conspiracy to say allowing this it is endorsing it?

The only conspiracy is a bunch of half-informed inferences regarding how insurmountable a 1 mill/year buyout would be and now those inferences are sold as fact

 

[307bball]

What's too simplistic? The buyout? If you don't think the athletic department has salary savings from Bohl or that it can't borrow, I don't know what to tell you. That's not a conspiracy at all.

Very few other programs would tolerate this from an ad and now a football coach. It's a conspiracy to say allowing this it is endorsing it?

The only conspiracy is a bunch of half-informed inferences regarding how insurmountable a 1 mill/year buyout would be and now those inferences are sold as fact

As with your tale of nepotistic malfeasance...it is internally coherent. And as in that case...we have zero chance of actually coming up with any information that would make your claim's anything besides ragtime's opinion. Now, I want to say...I enjoy your opinion and sometimes I even agree with it....but it's not fact.

You have become so invested in the story of "accepting mediocrity" that your reasoning has become motivated. Everything comes back to "accepting mediocrity" for you...that is what is too simplistic. As I described, it seems self evident that BOT and University President level leadership probably want a championship level athletic program at every sport but they aren't motivated to look much beyond men's basketball and football unless there is just a trainwreck (which seems to be happening). If that were the only force keeping Wyoming from having a better athletic department, I think I could get on board with some of your rhetoric....but it's so far from the only thing holding us back.

There is more going on here man....put down the Sternberg report and get some fresh air.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

As with your tale of nepotistic malfeasance...it is internally coherent. And as in that case...we have zero chance of actually coming up with any information that would make your claim's anything besides ragtime's opinion. Now, I want to say...I enjoy your opinion and sometimes I even agree with it....but it's not fact.

You have become so invested in the story of "accepting mediocrity" that your reasoning has become motivated. Everything comes back to "accepting mediocrity" for you...that is what is too simplistic. As I described, it seems self evident that BOT and University President level leadership probably want a championship level athletic program at every sport but they aren't motivated to look much beyond men's basketball and football unless there is just a trainwreck (which seems to be happening). If that were the only force keeping Wyoming from having a better athletic department, I think I could get on board with some of your rhetoric....but it's so far from the only thing holding us back.

There is more going on here man....put down the Sternberg report and get some fresh air.

You seem to finally realize Burman is bad at hiring coaches. Have you ever considered that he's equally bad at several other less visible but perhaps equally impactful functions? Have you ever once considered that just because you don't know all the AD functions or nuances of how the AD can drive success or failure doesn't mean the AD can't impact success or failure? Besides the limitations, which are consistent, have you ever considered that perhaps nearly 20 decades of an incompetent AD has had a significant enough impact that has impeded what progress could be made despite what the AD says he wanted?

Simply recognizing unique challenges without attempting to remedy, improve, or overcome those challenges is accepting of mediocrity. Not holding Burman to a higher standard and simply accepting the challenges as a root cause and insurmountable is accepting mediocrity as is theorizing financial limitations and accepting those speculative limitations as justifiable reasons to not move on from PBJ.

Look, I get timelines and we are running short in making a decision about an AD (which should happen first) AND hiring a new football coach. That means likely the best case is hire the new AD soon and then move on from PBJ when timing is acceptable.

Put down the message board theories of financial burdens and the Burman narrative beaten into your (and all fans') heads for the past 2 decades. Understand that some may be true, but are also used as a crutch for his shortcomings.

 

[307bball]

You seem to finally realize Burman is bad at hiring coaches. Have you ever considered that he's equally bad at several other less visible but perhaps equally impactful functions? Have you ever once considered that just because you don't know all the AD functions or nuances of how the AD can drive success or failure doesn't mean the AD can't impact success or failure? Besides the limitations, which are consistent, have you ever considered that perhaps nearly 20 decades of an incompetent AD has had a significant enough impact that has impeded what progress could be made despite what the AD says he wanted?

If you have not seen my comments saying Burman hires bad coaches then you have not been reading my comments. It's the one thing that he absolutely can't fail at if the department is ever going to turn around. I don't care how bad he is at all the rest....if our football and basketball teams are top 25 to 50 all the time...the other nuances become much easier to fix. If you reverse that, a well-oiled athletic department that hires bad coaches is still a debacle. The 2 decades that Burman has overseen has coincided with challenges to UW that were probably going to make things worse no matter what....but his handling of coach hiring is ridiculous. I don't care about the other functions and I'm pretty sure they don't matter...I want a winner and his coaching hires don't deliver. Win, win, win.....that needs to be the focus.

Simply recognizing unique challenges without attempting to remedy, improve, or overcome those challenges is accepting of mediocrity. Not holding Burman to a higher standard and simply accepting the challenges as a root cause and insurmountable is accepting mediocrity as is theorizing financial limitations and accepting those speculative limitations as justifiable reasons to not move on from PBJ.

Look, I get timelines and we are running short in making a decision about an AD (which should happen first) AND hiring a new football coach. That means likely the best case is hire the new AD soon and then move on from PBJ when timing is acceptable.

Put down the message board theories of financial burdens and the Burman narrative beaten into your (and all fans') heads for the past 2 decades. Understand that some may be true, but are also used as a crutch for his shortcomings.

When it comes to the raw financial side of things, you seem to be far more informed than I...but then again...so do people who claim that Sawvell's buyout is actually going to hinder us so I don't really have a dog in the hunt. You make some solid points but so do the people who say it's a big deal. To me it does not matter. I want him gone because he sucks...the finances of college athletics is funny money anyways...I just want a winner.

On a side note...do you believe that Burman creating this financial hole with respect to Sawvell's contract is somehow better for Burman than your constant accusations of accepting mediocrity? If the contract is a big deal, this seems like a dismissable offense!

 

[ragtimejoe1]

If you have not seen my comments saying Burman hires bad coaches then you have not been reading my comments. It's the one thing that he absolutely can't fail at if the department is ever going to turn around. I don't care how bad he is at all the rest....if our football and basketball teams are top 25 to 50 all the time...the other nuances become much easier to fix. If you reverse that, a well-oiled athletic department that hires bad coaches is still a debacle. The 2 decades that Burman has overseen has coincided with challenges to UW that were probably going to make things worse no matter what....but his handling of coach hiring is ridiculous. I don't care about the other functions and I'm pretty sure they don't matter...I want a winner and his coaching hires don't deliver. Win, win, win.....that needs to be the focus.

On a side note...do you believe that Burman creating this financial hole with respect to Sawvell's contract is somehow better for Burman than your constant accusations of accepting mediocrity? If the contract is a big deal, this seems like a dismissable offense!

I can't say for certain on the AD functions but watching the rise of bsu, it seemed the University Prez and AD played a big role in that. There certainly were other advantages and alignment of the stars so to speak, but I don't think that happens without the Prez/AD combo they had even with the good coaches. All speculation, of course.

For the contract, I have no doubt that it is a function of an internal hire and the established personal relationships. In other words, I don't think that type of contract would have been offered to an outside "unknown" candidate. I won't go so far to say it was a function of nepotism to make sure the assistants had a big chunk. The performance of PBJ has galvanized that opinion on his hire, however. How on earth could you know this guy for 3 years and think he can be a hc?

 

[307bball]

I can't say for certain on the AD functions but watching the rise of bsu, it seemed the University Prez and AD played a big role in that. There certainly were other advantages and alignment of the stars so to speak, but I don't think that happens without the Prez/AD combo they had even with the good coaches. All speculation, of course.

For the contract, I have no doubt that it is a function of an internal hire and the established personal relationships. In other words, I don't think that type of contract would have been offered to an outside "unknown" candidate. I won't go so far to say it was a function of nepotism to make sure the assistants had a big chunk. The performance of PBJ has galvanized that opinion on his hire, however. How on earth could you know this guy for 3 years and think he can be a hc?

All I know for certain about the rise of BSU is that there is no way it happens without the crazy winning percentage that put up for the last 20 years.... No matter how good the prez/AD combo is. They get the credit for creating that environment for sure... But without that run of great coaching it doesn't happen. It's the one thing about the rise of that program that kneecaps it if it doesn't excel to the level it did

When it comes to Burman thinking Sawvell would be good.... It doesn't surprise me at all. It fits the pattern. At this point, if I like a coaching candidate and Burman announces that he's hiring them, I would reconsider my opinion.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Well, when MWC8 hits EVERY excuse goes out the window. Despite NIL and all the other crap, wyo athletics jobs have gotten easier by conference realignment. We better damn sure never hear the Burman sob stories when the MWC8 hits. I'm guessing he's voluntarily done by then if he's not pushed out. He knows damn well he can't hide anymore

 

[307bball]

Well, when MWC8 hits EVERY excuse goes out the window. Despite NIL and all the other crap, wyo athletics jobs have gotten easier by conference realignment. We better damn sure never hear the Burman sob stories when the MWC8 hits. I'm guessing he's voluntarily done by then if he's not pushed out. He knows damn well he can't hide anymore

I have definitely mused on this platform about what is actually possible at UW and the factors that are against success....is that what you are referring to as "sob stories"?

 

[rocket city poke]

As far as being "hung up" on financials goes...I merely think the financial pressures are largely explanatory for what they decide to do w/Sawvell after this season. I would assume that loans from the foundation are the subject of political discussion...I know that there are loud voices that don't really like that athletics is supported like it is. I assume those voices would make the case that this money would be better loaned to more "academic" pursuits....again...pure speculation. I just have not heard of the athletic department borrowing from the foundation...but maybe they should start.

Back to "accepting mediocrity"....I assume Sawvell is free from this accusation? I mean....he seems to be a terrible coach but I assume he's doing all he is capable of ...which is not much. What about Burman? Again, he seems to me like he's a bad athletic director. My sense is he's trying to make things better but his hiring track record is abysmal. I don't think he "accepts mediocrity" as much as he just does not know how to succeed. This brings us to people like the UW president and the BOT. This is the one that that I suppose you could make the best case for "accepting mediocrity. I also don't think they know what it takes to succeed in athletics but that is not really their job right? These are people who are looking at the big picture at UW and athletics is very visible but it's a small part of the overall university. I think they care now that the football program is going off a cliff but as long as it's not a house fire...I bet they are just fine with a Craig Bohl level of program. Is that what you mean by "accepting mediocrity"? I'm interested in what that means to you.

I am surprised that some of these schools have not evolved to just hire a "football athletic director" who is independent from everything else. They don't report to the actual athletic director, but hire the coach, are totally involved in the program. Similar to an NFL general manager. Afterall that is what is driving conference realignment. This person probably coached, but then have some experience with business, evolving NIL stuff and transfer portal stuff. I know several programs have this job that reports to the coach. That job needs to be the other way around with the coach reporting to the football director. They know what is going on and aren't concerned with the rest of the programs at the school. Burman is clearly too far removed from the football program to really know if any of the assistant coaches had capability to be the head coach at UW.

 

[PorkerPoke]

To change the focus back to mediocrity here’s an interesting example of mediocrity as it has existed in the mighty football program since the beginning of 7 digit $$$ contracts:

Since 2019 there have been 26 wins and 26 losses. Sawville has completely returned the program on a track to continue the sub .500 deficit that it took Bohl until his 10th season to overcome with his overall record.

At least we enjoyed 7 seasons at .500 or better overall for Bohl and a lot better feeling than this painful losing.

Let’s look especially at MWC play where Bohl was above .500 40%, at .500 20% and below .500 40%. Being mediocre to poor in the MWC has been a constant and will obviously be in the poor category this season.

Getting OOC wins is nice but losing frequently in the MWC is rough. I am relegated to feeling that no matter who is employed/contracted at Wyoming the litmus test is to get close to .500 and exceed that level 2 out of 5 tries and it will be rewarded.

Wyoming is so far below .500 as a competitor in the MWC and with only 1 sniff at the conference crown in 26 years as a MWC member we truly have to be considered a weak program. Perhaps even worse than mediocre.

 

[McPeachy]

To change the focus back to mediocrity here’s an interesting example of mediocrity as it has existed in the mighty football program since the beginning of 7 digit $$$ contracts:

Since 2019 there have been 26 wins and 26 losses. Sawville has completely returned the program on a track to continue the sub .500 deficit that it took Bohl until his 10th season to overcome with his overall record.

At least we enjoyed 7 seasons at .500 or better overall for Bohl and a lot better feeling than this painful losing.

Let’s look especially at MWC play where Bohl was above .500 40%, at .500 20% and below .500 40%. Being mediocre to poor in the MWC has been a constant and will obviously be in the poor category this season.

Getting OOC wins is nice but losing frequently in the MWC is rough. I am relegated to feeling that no matter who is employed/contracted at Wyoming the litmus test is to get close to .500 and exceed that level 2 out of 5 tries and it will be rewarded.

Wyoming is so far below .500 as a competitor in the MWC and with only 1 sniff at the conference crown in 26 years as a MWC member we truly have to be considered a weak program. Perhaps even worse than mediocre.

With Tom Burman and his "no coach at Wyoming will ever make more than $1,000,000" statement - that 2 years later got shoved back down his throat - Wyoming football doesn't stand a chance to be anything BUT mediocre. Wyoming needs somebody at the top that will strive to be great, and spend the $$ to make the $$. Like UNLV and Barry Odom FFS. It isn't brain surgery, but it does take vision and hard work - something Burman simply does not possess or desire to be a part of. You know, do less with less, that equals job security.

 

[doreno5]

That’s the only financially realistic option this year. The provost was fired a month ago so maybe it’s being considered.

Exactly. That and the best way to remake an athletic department is to start with the AD. Make no mistake UW needs remaking.

 

[LawPoke]

While the writing is on the wall that a change is needed this year - I just don't see Burman and UW pulling the trigger. They are never quick to diagnose and/or act on a clear loser. We languish in the realm of being 'ol WYO that is patient and tries to be nice to the old dog that just needs to be put out of its misery. We will invite another round of ugly departures along the way, but we will be able to say that we tried and saved a dollar or two in buyouts. Goody.

No, I see Sawvel getting another year at least. Burman will give him a stern talking to and suggest that his offense is crap and his defense regressed and engage in some "don't you think you should think about rearranging the deck chairs on your nice big boat, Jay" sort of pabulum. Sawvel will fire someone or a couple of someones. The "doing plastic surgery on Ernest Borgnine" kind of fix won't work. We will see mass departures and next year will be akin to wisdom tooth extraction without the benefit of anesthesia. Then we will really be in a bind. The new boxes will be empty. The old boxes will be empty. The stadium will fill the first week and then be a ghost-town (Edwards-era attendance, but in the War). We can all see it coming and we know it is as certain an outcome as Craig Bohl grumbling about the advent of the forward pass every day when he wakes up. But firing a guy after a single year of horrific football and decision-making is not the UW way.

What should happen: Burman should retire and acknowledge he is worn out and we need a change. As his last act, he should fire Sawvel. We should then find an AD that only cares about winning and is ruthless about it. He should have a pad of pink slips and a trunk full of moving boxes to root out and replace dead weight and old ideas. Get a new head of CJC/1WYO who can sell icicles to eskimos and smooze while the new AD guts the old way of doing things. Take some of the money from CSU out for a spin to find a transformational coach and pay them accordingly. Tell the President and BOT to ignore the screams from disgruntled fat cats and the endless array of Karens and move forward. In my view, this is literally our last gasp - our last shot at greatness. We should act and invest accordingly. Now is not the time for half-measures and worrying about hurt feelings and stepping on toes.

Now that I have urinated into the wind and engaged in the functional equivalent of having sex without the benefit of a partner, I at least was warm for a second...cause none of this is happening.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

I have definitely mused on this platform about what is actually possible at UW and the factors that are against success....is that what you are referring to as "sob stories"?

The excuse machine has been full effect for nearly 2 decades and not just on this board.

Ecu and southern miss have demonstrated the intestinal fortitude to try to move forward. We're exactly where we deserve to be with our approach to athletics.