The argument to end the drop to FCS argument

[COS Cowboy]

Since there seems to be only one guy on Wyonation advocating this, I'll address this to SDPokeFan.

There are lots of examples of schools going through decades of losing before finally finding success. (Baylor, Kansas State etc.) There are also examples of schools moving up from FCS and having success. (Boise) But can you name one that has endured years of losing and dropped down and found success? You like to think we would be like Montana or NDSU, but those schools moved UP from DII at some point. Even your beloved jackrabbits of SDSU have moved up.

Who has moved down and found success? Who has moved down and NOT lost their fan base? Who has moved down and NOT lost donors? Who has moved down and kept the same budget? Who has moved down and become an FCS powerhouse?

I don't believe such a team exists.

[ragtimejoe1]

Since there seems to be only one guy on Wyonation advocating this, I'll address this to SDPokeFan.

There are lots of examples of schools going through decades of losing before finally finding success. (Baylor, Kansas State etc.) There are also examples of schools moving up from FCS and having success. (Boise) But can you name one that has endured years of losing and dropped down and found success? You like to think we would be like Montana or NDSU, but those schools moved UP from DII at some point. Even your beloved jackrabbits of SDSU have moved up.

Who has moved down and found success? Who has moved down and NOT lost their fan base? Who has moved down and NOT lost donors? Who has moved down and kept the same budget? Who has moved down and become an FCS powerhouse?

I don't believe such a team exists.

For the record, I don't agree with the drop to FCS mentality. However, technically, some of the Ivy League schools were the best DI (or was it DIA?) football teams in the country. When the TV generation started taking off in 1982, the Ivy League schools stepped down to what would ultimately become FCS. There have been some good Ivy League teams in FCS but they abstain from the playoff.

[ragtimejoe1]

I should add they were essentially dropped. We should pay very close attention to that event because history appears to be repeating itself and we are the "Ivy League" schools this time around. Sorry for derailing your thread, but here is an interesting article from that era:
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1981/ ... s-vote-to/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He (John P. Reardon Jr.) added that the NCAA, which stresses education and athletics, should get rid of "football businesses" like the universities of Oklahoma and Texas.

"The entire exercise is one that leaves me very cold indeed," President Bok said yesterday. "It seems to me to reflect primarily the commercial orientation of college sports that I think has been a source of considerable harm to what institutions of higher education are trying to accomplish."

[COS Cowboy]

For the record, I don't agree with the drop to FCS mentality. However, technically, some of the Ivy League schools were the best DI (nomenclature at the time) football teams in the country. When the TV generation started taking off in 1982, the Ivy League schools stepped down to what would ultimately become FCS. There have been some good Ivy League teams in FCS but they abstain from the playoff.

The Ivy league has a very different alumni base than we do, so it's not really a valid example of what we might become if we dropped. It's also worth noting that their entire conference dropped so no rivalries were lost. Apples and Oranges.

[COS Cowboy]

I should add they were essentially dropped. We should pay very close attention to that event because history appears to be repeating itself and we are the "Ivy League" schools this time around. Sorry for derailing your thread, but here is an interesting article from that era:
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1981/ ... s-vote-to/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He (John P. Reardon Jr.) added that the NCAA, which stresses education and athletics, should get rid of "football businesses" like the universities of Oklahoma and Texas.

"The entire exercise is one that leaves me very cold indeed," President Bok said yesterday. "It seems to me to reflect primarily the commercial orientation of college sports that I think has been a source of considerable harm to what institutions of higher education are trying to accomplish."

Interesting. 40 other schools were also voted out. That begs the further question, has anyone voluntarily dropped from D1A to D1AA?

[ragtimejoe1]

For the record, I don't agree with the drop to FCS mentality. However, technically, some of the Ivy League schools were the best DI (nomenclature at the time) football teams in the country. When the TV generation started taking off in 1982, the Ivy League schools stepped down to what would ultimately become FCS. There have been some good Ivy League teams in FCS but they abstain from the playoff.

The Ivy league has a very different alumni base than we do, so it's not really a valid example of what we might become if we dropped. It's also worth noting that their entire conference dropped so no rivalries were lost. Apples and Oranges.

I don't disagree, but that is an example of schools dropping from "FBS" to "FCS". To my knowledge, those are the only ones since that period (I don't know about before that--irrelevant anyway).

Personally, I'm more worried about being booted to FCS, which could happen.

[ragtimejoe1]

Interesting. 40 other schools were also voted out. That begs the further question, has anyone voluntarily dropped from D1A to D1AA?

UMASS would have been a prime candidate but they didn't even drop back. They chose Indy over dropping back. That ought to sum it up.

[COS Cowboy]

For the record, I don't agree with the drop to FCS mentality. However, technically, some of the Ivy League schools were the best DI (nomenclature at the time) football teams in the country. When the TV generation started taking off in 1982, the Ivy League schools stepped down to what would ultimately become FCS. There have been some good Ivy League teams in FCS but they abstain from the playoff.

The Ivy league has a very different alumni base than we do, so it's not really a valid example of what we might become if we dropped. It's also worth noting that their entire conference dropped so no rivalries were lost. Apples and Oranges.

I don't disagree, but that is an example of schools dropping from "FBS" to "FCS". To my knowledge, those are the only ones since that period (I don't know about before that--irrelevant anyway).

Personally, I'm more worried about being booted to FCS, which could happen.

We were in danger of it during the Koening years. There was a 15K home average attendance requirement that we had to pull all kinds of trick to achieve (such as planning a "home" game in Nashville against Tennessee in 2002). Remember Project 20K? We fought like hell to avoid being booted. How stupid would it be to surrender now.

[COS Cowboy]

Interesting. 40 other schools were also voted out. That begs the further question, has anyone voluntarily dropped from D1A to D1AA?

UMASS would have been a prime candidate but they didn't even drop back. They chose Indy over dropping back. That ought to sum it up.

Didn't they just move UP?

[ragtimejoe1]

Interesting. 40 other schools were also voted out. That begs the further question, has anyone voluntarily dropped from D1A to D1AA?

UMASS would have been a prime candidate but they didn't even drop back. They chose Indy over dropping back. That ought to sum it up.

Didn't they just move UP?

Yes, and something didn't work out with the MAC (I don't remember off the top of my head). They had a huge debate about dropping back to FCS but chose Indy rather dropping back.

If there was a candidate in FBS that, under their circumstances, should consider dropping back, it would have been UMass. The fact they didn't is telling.

[JimmyDimes]

For the record, I don't agree with the drop to FCS mentality. However, technically, some of the Ivy League schools were the best DI (nomenclature at the time) football teams in the country. When the TV generation started taking off in 1982, the Ivy League schools stepped down to what would ultimately become FCS. There have been some good Ivy League teams in FCS but they abstain from the playoff.

The Ivy league has a very different alumni base than we do, so it's not really a valid example of what we might become if we dropped. It's also worth noting that their entire conference dropped so no rivalries were lost. Apples and Oranges.

We will never get dropped (maybe a new league...but I don't see the P5 wanting to play entirely by themselves). There are many programs in worse shape than Wyoming....especially financial shape.

Also, the Ivy League school don't offer athletic scholarships. They are a different animal completely.

[MrTitleist]

I don't believe Montana ever moved up from D2. They shared a conference with Wyoming until they went diff directions.
FYI.

[COS Cowboy]

I don't believe Montana ever moved up from D2. They shared a conference with Wyoming until they went diff directions.
FYI.

According to CFB data warehouse they were DII from '73 - '78.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/ac ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[OrediggerPoke]

Interesting. 40 other schools were also voted out. That begs the further question, has anyone voluntarily dropped from D1A to D1AA?

UMASS would have been a prime candidate but they didn't even drop back. They chose Indy over dropping back. That ought to sum it up.

Didn't they just move UP?

Yes, and something didn't work out with the MAC (I don't remember off the top of my head). They had a huge debate about dropping back to FCS but chose Indy rather dropping back.

If there was a candidate in FBS that, under their circumstances, should consider dropping back, it would have been UMass. The fact they didn't is telling.

UMASS refused to put its baskeball program in the MAC so the MAC basically kicked them out. It is pretty telling that UMASS (a basketabll school) refused to drop back to FCS even in light of the fact that the drop to FCS would have had no effect on the basketball team and its conference affiliation.

In our circumstance, a drop to FCS would undoubtedly have a negative effect on the basketball team as it would mean an exit from the MWC.

[MrTitleist]

I don't believe Montana ever moved up from D2. They shared a conference with Wyoming until they went diff directions.
FYI.

According to CFB data warehouse they were DII from '73 - '78.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/ac ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That would mean the entire Big Sky moved down, then up.. which, Okie might know this better, but somewhere in there there was a classification called "small school" and "big school" or something like that.. basically the current FBS/FCS, DII is diff now than it was in the 70s. Again, I'd have to research that more.

[COS Cowboy]

As near as I can tell prior to 1937 there were no divisions.

From '37-'72 there were small colleges and major universities

From '72 - '77 it was DI, DII and DIII

In '78 football split into D1-A and D1-AA

It looks to me like Montana was a founding member of the Big Sky in 1963 as a small college. (a move down for them) The Big Sky was reclassified DII in '72 and D1-AA in '78 (a move up)

[joshvanklomp]

I don't believe Montana ever moved up from D2. They shared a conference with Wyoming until they went diff directions.
FYI.

According to CFB data warehouse they were DII from '73 - '78.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/ac ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure how that's possible, since Idaho State, who's been with Montana in the Big Sky since the beginning (1963), defeated UCLA in the Sweet Sixteen in 1977. That doesn't happen if they're Division II, unless basketball used a completely different classification system.

[COS Cowboy]

I don't believe Montana ever moved up from D2. They shared a conference with Wyoming until they went diff directions.
FYI.

According to CFB data warehouse they were DII from '73 - '78.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/ac ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure how that's possible, since Idaho State, who's been with Montana in the Big Sky since the beginning (1963), defeated UCLA in the Sweet Sixteen in 1977. That doesn't happen if they're Division II, unless basketball used a completely different classification system.

Hmmmm. There are schools who compete at certain sports in different divisions. Colorado College for instance is a DIII school but competes in DI hockey and DI women's soccer. Either that or CFB datawarehouse is wrong about the Big Sky being DII.

[joshvanklomp]

I stand corrected. The Big Sky was considered Division II.

Montana State won the 1976 NCAA Division II championship at the Pioneer Bowl in Wichita Falls, Texas, beating the Akron Zips 24-13. -Wikipedia

Still, I think saying they (and Montana) moved up is semantics. It had more to do with the reshuffling of the NCAA than it had to do with a decision by the universities.

[COS Cowboy]

I stand corrected. The Big Sky was considered Division II.

Montana State won the 1976 NCAA Division II championship at the Pioneer Bowl in Wichita Falls, Texas, beating the Akron Zips 24-13. -Wikipedia

Still, I think saying they (and Montana) moved up is semantics. It had more to do with the reshuffling of the NCAA than it had to do with a decision by the universities.

I agree. They didn't move down to go kick ass at a lower level like those who are advocating us dropping to FCS. Successful teams move UP, not down. I still want to know if anyone has voluntarily moved from D1-A to D1-AA. The only examples I can find are the ones who were booted along with the Ivy League in 1982. Some have dropped football altogether, but as far as I can tell no one has dropped on their own.