Somewhat OT: Gap between haves and have nots

[ragtimejoe1]

First, please do not devolve this into a political discussion; that is not the intent. Regardless of your stance on the issue, I think we can all agree that fairness, "income equality", etc. is a hot topic right now. I think it is safe to say that the topic is of major importance to left leaning folks and that most University (not necessarily WYO) people are also left leaning. Again, please do not take this too far off course here.

What I find interesting is that when it comes to football, and regardless of your views on the aforementioned topic, large Universities are the epitome of what all of society would consider evil businesses. Smaller Universities are only asking for a chance to compete but the large Universities say no because of entitlement, wealth, etc.

I wonder how many folks in those Universities would support a Football system in everyday society where we would tell people, no, you are not allowed to even have a chance to compete because you are too poor, aren't popular enough, etc.

Mods please delete if you find it too political for this forum. The bowl season just reminds me of this every year and I think the new playoff will actually be worse for us than the BCS was.

 

[NowherePoke]

Ideals rarely hold up when it comes to actual personal impact. I am sure the Presidents of the "Power" conference programs would have very different opinions if they were in the same role at a CUSA or Sun Belt school.

 

[The Virginian]

In the course of human history when the "have-nots" get fed up with not having it, they take it out on the "haves". Witness the French Revolution, The Bolshevik Revolution, and other social/economic upheavals throughout the course history.

College football, however, is defying this model. The "haves" will continue to dominate because they have the support of the television industry and all its attendant evils, i.e.: ratings, demographics, advertising money, influence. It all serves to continue to keep the "have-nots" down. Until a Wyoming game can pull in the number of eyeballs and advertising revenue as an Ohio State game, for example, we'll continue to be a "have-not".

Inevitably another split in the college football divisional make up is coming. I believe The Power Schools, i.e. the top five conferences, will break off and form their own governing body leaving the rest of us to be under the NCAA umbrella. We shall gather what crumbs we can.

 

[WYCowboy]

My comment centers on the bowl system. How can the advertisers of most of the current bowl games get their money's worth when there is as little interest as I have seen for some of these bowls. I'm not sure what the tv ratings were for them, but if they were down in the same proportion as the actual attendance, they are in trouble. I expect a big change in the current bowl system sometime in the future - but probably not the near future.

 

[Hayduke]

Until a Wyoming game can pull in the number of eyeballs and advertising revenue as an Ohio State game, for example, we'll continue to be a "have-not".

Perfect example last night. UCF beats Baylor.

At first glance, it looks like a "have not" has come up and beat a "have". I don't agree. UCF has 50,000 undergraduates and is located in a major media market. (Orlando, Florida)

They did have to build the stadium, build up their program, etc... But, it is so, so much easier when you have potential advertising revenue and so many butts in the area that can fill seats. Even smaller schools can succeed if the have a media market to attract advertisers and fans.

Wyoming, unfortunately, (Or maybe fortunately..myself, I hate urban sprawl..) does not have this advantage.

As much as I like to make fun of that school in Fargo, that metro area has over 200,000 people, with more within a couple of hours driving distance. If they would commit, they could build a larger stadium and try to move to FBS. But, I doubt they will commit. The mindset at that school won't allow it.

 

[Hayduke]

My comment centers on the bowl system. How can the advertisers of most of the current bowl games get their money's worth when there is as little interest as I have seen for some of these bowls. I'm not sure what the tv ratings were for them, but if they were down in the same proportion as the actual attendance, they are in trouble. I expect a big change in the current bowl system sometime in the future - but probably not the near future.

*IF* the FBS could break the stranglehold of the Bowl system and come up with a legitimate playoff system, ratings/attendance/revenue would go through the roof. I read on this forum someone stated that might be bad for the lesser of the FBS conferences. I would agree, but if they gave a guaranteed autobid to the conference champions at the FBS level, like they do in bucketball, that may alleviate some of those concerns.

 

[Bryoming]

*IF* the FBS could break the stranglehold of the Bowl system and come up with a legitimate playoff system, ratings/attendance/revenue would go through the roof. I read on this forum someone stated that might be bad for the lesser of the FBS conferences. I would agree, but if they gave a guaranteed autobid to the conference champions at the FBS level, like they do in bucketball, that may alleviate some of those concerns.

This has been my argument since day 1. It will never be a true national championship until the champion of EVERY FBS conference is in the playoff.

 

[J-Rod]

This has been my argument since day 1. It will never be a true national championship until the champion of EVERY FBS conference is in the playoff.

Yep, and its so funny how the powers that be freak the fuck out when anyone mentions such a possibility. The frenzy that is March Madness does this EVERY SINGLE YEAR and people love it, but don't you dare give those small schools a chance to shock the big boys in football!

This new playoff is completely half-assed. It won't be legit until its 16 teams, 8 conference champs and 8 at-large.

 

[alyssa]

I hate the gap.

 

[Hayduke]

This has been my argument since day 1. It will never be a true national championship until the champion of EVERY FBS conference is in the playoff.

Yep, and its so funny how the powers that be freak the fuck out when anyone mentions such a possibility. The frenzy that is March Madness does this EVERY SINGLE YEAR and people love it, but don't you dare give those small schools a chance to shock the big boys in football!

This new playoff is completely half-assed. It won't be legit until its 16 teams, 8 conference champs and 8 at-large.

I hope that happens.

I can see this four team playoff turning into an 8, then 12, then 16. Let's face it. The fifth team will raise Hell about not being invited, then the sixth team will join in, and so on... Unless there is an opportunity for EVERY FBS team to have a shot at a national championship, the system will be seen as rigged.

 

[BJC]

My comment centers on the bowl system. How can the advertisers of most of the current bowl games get their money's worth when there is as little interest as I have seen for some of these bowls. I'm not sure what the tv ratings were for them, but if they were down in the same proportion as the actual attendance, they are in trouble. I expect a big change in the current bowl system sometime in the future - but probably not the near future.

The bowl games are for the TV networks. :twocents:

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Unless there is an opportunity for EVERY FBS team to have a shot at a national championship, the system will be seen as rigged.

That will happen but it won't be FBS necessarily. The train has left the station and it is a matter of time until we will have (officially) 0 access to the same post-season system as the big boys. All of the big boys will have a chance at their national championship. I suppose we can host our own "national championship" much like NDSU is playing for.

The reason is the proposed (and likely to pass) governance of the NCAA. Essentially, they are going to allow some conferences (i.e. the big dogs) to vote and pass some things independently of us but everyone (for now) competes for the same post-season and revenue distributions don't change. That means there are 2 separate sets of rules for teams in the same "division" of college football. Not only that, it leaves the door wide open for them to "price us down" to a lower level. Everything is on the chopping block from scholarship limits to paying athletes. I predict the "grueling season and playoff" will require more depth (or so they will say) which will necessitate more scholarships in the name of safety. Then we have to pay these players a modest stipend. Then it will be "to be in our division you must provide 125 football scholarships (which means 35 additional women's scholarships) and pay each athlete x dollars". Bam, NCAA CFB just split again.

The last time NCAA FB split, it did so by putting regulations in place that smaller schools could not meet. The end result was ultimately FBS and FCS (formerly DI and DIA). History is repeating itself and the wheels are already in motion.

 

[SnowyRange]

The last time NCAA FB split, it did so by putting regulations in place that smaller schools could not meet. The end result was ultimately FBS and FCS (formerly DI and DIA). History is repeating itself and the wheels are already in motion.

I take your point, but it's not really the NCAA that's driving this train. It's just a trade association, really, and its members run it. When -- as is starting to happen with football -- enough of its members decide they don't like the way things are, they will either drastically change the rules or simply leave.

It's probably a toss-up which will happen with football. There are 40-50 schools which, if they banded together, might just yank their football away from the NCAA, or even perhaps pull all their sports out of the NCAA.

A number of schools are simply running professional sporting operations, which make adults and corporations one metric fuck ton of money, and it is getting more lucrative with each passing year. It is all going to change drastically...how and when are the only questions.

It's almost silly for us -- or a lot of other schools in our position -- to talk about tweaks to the current system that will somehow make it "nicer" for us. Ain't gonna happen. Those days are gone.

 

[ragtimejoe1]

Good points, SnowyRange. It is funny to think that the BCS was our hay day; our best shot of inclusion. Like I said in my first post, I can't understand how in this day and age, our society accepts this. College athletics should be a model of competition.

I think they are going to find out that, really, there are only a handful of schools that demand these big dollars. Once that monster as chewed us up and spit us out, the monster's attention will turn to the next "small market, small money" teams. Teams like Iowa State should watch out. Once "the split" occurs, they will be the have nots. They will be the ones without tradition, markets, fans (relative to the big dogs), and won't be able to justify their share of the pie. They will see disproportionate revenue splits and the like. It is a vicious cycle that won't end with us getting the ax.

 

[wyoav211933]

Well a couple of thoughts: 1.) I don't think most university types probably won't see the parallels between the inequalities in the college football system and the socioeconomic inequalities they fight against largely because, much like politics, sports brings out the irrational in people. If your a professor at say Stanford, for example, as long as your team is getting into the Rose Bowl consistently, your probably happy enough with college football and don't really care about anybody else.

2.)You can lament how much the playoff system is going to widen the gap between us and the bigger conferences, but really we are just kidding ourselves into thinking that it hasn't been large for a very long time now. The truth is there are very few people outside of our fanbase that even think we're formidable opponents unless they are trying to be diplomatic. There are probably a lot of fans outside of the MW area that think Wyoming is an FCS school, and probably many more that believe we should be an FCS school. We just haven't got much respect. At a time when college sports started to become broadcast nationally at unprecedented rates in the late 90s and 2000's, and smaller schools like Boise State, Utah, TCU, UCF, and Gonzaga had a stage to show off to the world, both our football and men's basketball teams were generally trending downward. We missed our window. We haven't played in a bowl game in consecutive seasons since the 80's(a quarter of a century ago!), and our basketball team has made the NCAA tournament a grand total of 1 time since Fennis Dembo. Nobody else but us cares about how good our football team used to be in those pre-Black 14 days, or our Basketball Championship that we won during WWII.

All that being said, I'm not all that gloom and doom about our future. I feel that unless the big conferences secede from the NCAA, we won't really be any "worse off" than we are now. Any significant change will be slow, and as long as we continue to play CSU, Air Force, and other teams of comparable talent to the current MW, and win some of those games, then I'm happy.

 

[Hayduke]

Well a couple of thoughts: 1.) I don't think most university types probably won't see the parallels between the inequalities in the college football system and the socioeconomic inequalities they fight against largely because, much like politics, sports brings out the irrational in people. If your a professor at say Stanford, for example, as long as your team is getting into the Rose Bowl consistently, your probably happy enough with college football and don't really care about anybody else.

2.)You can lament how much the playoff system is going to widen the gap between us and the bigger conferences, but really we are just kidding ourselves into thinking that it hasn't been large for a very long time now. The truth is there are very few people outside of our fanbase that even think we're formidable opponents unless they are trying to be diplomatic. There are probably a lot of fans outside of the MW area that think Wyoming is an FCS school, and probably many more that believe we should be an FCS school. We just haven't got much respect. At a time when college sports started to become broadcast nationally at unprecedented rates in the late 90s and 2000's, and smaller schools like Boise State, Utah, TCU, UCF, and Gonzaga had a stage to show off to the world, both our football and men's basketball teams were generally trending downward. We missed our window. We haven't played in a bowl game in consecutive seasons since the 80's(a quarter of a century ago!), and our basketball team has made the NCAA tournament a grand total of 1 time since Fennis Dembo. Nobody else but us cares about how good our football team used to be in those pre-Black 14 days, or our Basketball Championship that we won during WWII.

All that being said, I'm not all that gloom and doom about our future. I feel that unless the big conferences secede from the NCAA, we won't really be any "worse off" than we are now. Any significant change will be slow, and as long as we continue to play CSU, Air Force, and other teams of comparable talent to the current MW, and win some of those games, then I'm happy.

One of the things that attracted me to UW was the size. I didn't want to do my grad program at CSU (the cost was another factor...let's face it.) because of the size of that campus. God, now there are 31,000+ students at CSU? Too big for me. I prefer schools the size of UW.

With that said, the market and size of school does make it appear to be more of an FCS school to outsiders. It's good to be FBS, but I agree, to say that Wyoming is one of the big dogs isn't true. I like where the Pokes are at, being in the MWC. I hope that can continue.

 

[wyoav211933]

One of the things that attracted me to UW was the size. I didn't want to do my grad program at CSU (the cost was another factor...let's face it.) because of the size of that campus. God, now there are 31,000+ students at CSU? Too big for me. I prefer schools the size of UW.

With that said, the market and size of school does make it appear to be more of an FCS school to outsiders. It's good to be FBS, but I agree, to say that Wyoming is one of the big dogs isn't true. I like where the Pokes are at, being in the MWC. I hope that can continue.

I think you kind of demonstrated the weird cognitive dissonance that the university faces. I think it's appeal for most students are that it's small enough that you can make a difference and be known by your professors, and you're not just another number. I think most Wyoming people embrace the fact that there aren't a ton of people there, just like they embrace that there aren't very many people in the state. However, at the same time as having a small school, they want to have a big sports program. It's not a bad thing to want either, but most athletes that are good enough to lead big programs probably get easily turned off by the smallness of the school. All things considered, I'm most happy with the way the University is doing it, making it a small school that makes it fun for it's students and affordable. I really don't care what other people think about our sports.

 

[WyoExpat]

I, for one, would accept an antitrust exemption for the NCAA. I think that body, with all of its faults, is a more appropriate decision-maker than ESPN is when it comes to how to handle sports teams housed within academic institutions.

On a different note, does anyone remember when the broadcasters used to include a player's major when they would put up the bio page that included hometown, height, weight, etc during the game after a big play?

 

[Hayduke]

I, for one, would accept an antitrust exemption for the NCAA. I think that body, with all of its faults, is a more appropriate decision-maker than ESPN is when it comes to how to handle sports teams housed within academic institutions.

On a different note, does anyone remember when the broadcasters used to include a player's major when they would put up the bio page that included hometown, height, weight, etc during the game after a big play?

Yes, I do remember.

I also remember way back when Duke and UNLV were in the final four in Denver, back when McNIchols still existed. The Duke mascot held up a sign aimed at the UNLV player, "Welcome Fellow Scholars!".

 

[Wyokie]

I also remember way back when Duke and UNLV were in the final four in Denver, back when McNIchols still existed. The Duke mascot held up a sign aimed at the UNLV player, "Welcome Fellow Scholars!".

Not to hi-jack a thread but when did McNichols Arena get torn down? I remember going to a Ice Capades show there in the 1980s as a kid.