Jay Sawvel named head coach

[OrediggerPoke]

It's this framing that nobody is agreeing with. I still have not seen any appreciable "pro Sawvell" hiring content posted here. You have cornered the "anti-Sawvell" market though. At most, there is an air of cautious optimism..... Most seen cautiously pessimistic. One of the straw men (there are many) is saying the people who don't necessarily have a problem with the internal hire are "pro" the internal hire. Being neutral towards the hiring of Sawvell, or even noticing that, in some respects, it makes sense, is not the same as liking the internal hire and process.

There's plenty of pro (not you). Less than 5 wins and I'm sure it'll get pointed out. Besides, truly neutral means you see merit in pro and anti stances. However panties are only in a wad over the anti stance.

As to your first line. No. I dint give a poop about other people's views of my opinions. If you're truly neutral, you sure care an awful lot about someone thinking the decision and process was dumb, unfair, cronyism to advance a Bohl and failed to make an effort to take another step forward. No, I don't care if nobody on wyonation agrees or not.

You’re a funny guy. I haven’t seen the pro ‘Sawvel’ crowd either. As many of us have pointed out to you many times, the hiring makes sense given the circumstances. Bringing in a new outside head coach and a brand new staff
is unlikely to move the needle on the football program and brings in additional risks. Wyoming is so far behind the NIL world that sustained ‘success’ has very little to do with who the head coach is. The only real question is what does Wyoming’s future football schedule look like and what teams will legitimately be the measuring stick for ‘success’ in the ever evolving landscape of professional college football.

But Don Quixote was also successful in his important quest. So I wish you good luck.

[ragtimejoe1]

There's plenty of pro (not you). Less than 5 wins and I'm sure it'll get pointed out. Besides, truly neutral means you see merit in pro and anti stances. However panties are only in a wad over the anti stance.

As to your first line. No. I dint give a poop about other people's views of my opinions. If you're truly neutral, you sure care an awful lot about someone thinking the decision and process was dumb, unfair, cronyism to advance a Bohl and failed to make an effort to take another step forward. No, I don't care if nobody on wyonation agrees or not.

You’re a funny guy. I haven’t seen the pro ‘Sawvel’ crowd either. As many of us have pointed out to you many times, the hiring makes sense given the circumstances. Bringing in a new outside head coach and a brand new staff
is unlikely to move the needle on the football program and brings in additional risks. Wyoming is so far behind the NIL world that sustained ‘success’ has very little to do with who the head coach is. The only real question is what does Wyoming’s future football schedule look like and what teams will legitimately be the measuring stick for ‘success’ in the ever evolving landscape of professional college football.

But Don Quixote was also successful in his important quest. So I wish you good luck.

Look. My beef is with the process. i don't buy for a second that Saint Burman did an exhaustive internal reflection and candidate consideration prior to this. I don't buy for a second that the timing was coincidence and that Bohl all the sudden decided that's it after the last game.

It looks like a well planned and orchestrated maneuver with 1 key element: promoting his son. I don't think what's best for the program mattered unless it included promotion of the younger Bohl. I believe Saint Burman is feeding us a line poop and everyone is lapping it up. Burman and Bohl created the circumstances intentionally.

Call me crazy; I don't give a poop. I think these types of processes hinder program advancement and perpetuate mediocrity.

I don't care if everyone here disagrees with me. It's all opinion anyway. If the wheels fall off then it demonstrates what bs deal this was no matter how much people try to rationalize it.

[307bball]

You’re a funny guy. I haven’t seen the pro ‘Sawvel’ crowd either. As many of us have pointed out to you many times, the hiring makes sense given the circumstances. Bringing in a new outside head coach and a brand new staff
is unlikely to move the needle on the football program and brings in additional risks. Wyoming is so far behind the NIL world that sustained ‘success’ has very little to do with who the head coach is. The only real question is what does Wyoming’s future football schedule look like and what teams will legitimately be the measuring stick for ‘success’ in the ever evolving landscape of professional college football.

But Don Quixote was also successful in his important quest. So I wish you good luck.

Look. My beef is with the process. i don't buy for a second that Saint Burman did an exhaustive internal reflection and candidate consideration prior to this. I don't buy for a second that the timing was coincidence and that Bohl all the sudden decided that's it after the last game.

It looks like a well planned and orchestrated maneuver with 1 key element: promoting his son. I don't think what's best for the program mattered unless it included promotion of the younger Bohl. I believe Saint Burman is feeding us a line poop and everyone is lapping it up. Burman and Bohl created the circumstances intentionally.

Call me crazy; I don't give a poop. I think these types of processes hinder program advancement and perpetuate mediocrity.

I don't care if everyone here disagrees with me. It's all opinion anyway. If the wheels fall off then it demonstrates what bs deal this was no matter how much people try to rationalize it.

IF the wheels fall off, it proves nothing.... The only thing that proves you right in my disagreement with you (which is still unclarified, but I'll make an assumption to move this forward) is ironically if Sawvell/Burman (or somebody else) actually gets us to the level of success that Wyoming enjoyed in the late '80s and early '90s..... If that never happens (and I predict it won't), it's just a likely (and probably more likely) that in the modern College football/sports landscape, Wyoming is at such a structural disadvantage that it doesn't matter who is the coach or the AD. In other words, ragtime, you could get the processes and hires you want.... And the results would be the same.

[ragtimejoe1]

that in the modern College football/sports landscape, Wyoming is at such a structural disadvantage that it doesn't matter who is the coach or the AD. In other words, ragtime, you could get the processes and hires you want.... And the results would be the same.

There it is and that's horse poop but undoubtedly what our ad has advertised and likely believes. If this is true, then why not simply drop to fcs? Why not just put any old dancing chicken up there for a 200k? Afterall, in your words, the coach doesn't matter.

Reality is this. We've been demoted to a conference of other teams that face similar structural disadvantages to the p5 yet there are very few with structural advantages.

Compared to p5, of course you're right. Compared to g5? He'll no. If you're right compared to g5, then quit shaking down students, alumni, and taxpayers to "help win championships". Instead say we need money to pad the highest paying public jobs in the state so we can field a team.

This is a win/loss business. If more losses than wins result from this decision then it was bs no matter how much you deny it. This was a cronyism hiring process for some of the highest paid positions in the state.

At that, if you can't see where we disagree, you never will. If you can then move on. We agree to disagree.

[ZapPoke]

Please let it stop.

[Wyokie]

Please let it stop.

[307bball]

that in the modern College football/sports landscape, Wyoming is at such a structural disadvantage that it doesn't matter who is the coach or the AD. In other words, ragtime, you could get the processes and hires you want.... And the results would be the same.

There it is and that's horse poop but undoubtedly what our ad has advertised and likely believes. If this is true, then why not simply drop to fcs? Why not just put any old dancing chicken up there for a 200k? Afterall, in your words, the coach doesn't matter.

Reality is this. We've been demoted to a conference of other teams that face similar structural disadvantages to the p5 yet there are very few with structural advantages.

Compared to p5, of course you're right. Compared to g5? He'll no. If you're right compared to g5, then quit shaking down students, alumni, and taxpayers to "help win championships". Instead say we need money to pad the highest paying public jobs in the state so we can field a team.

This is a win/loss business. If more losses than wins result from this decision then it was bs no matter how much you deny it. This was a cronyism hiring process for some of the highest paid positions in the state.

At that, if you can't see where we disagree, you never will. If you can then move on. We agree to disagree.

I've not been shy about this opinion. I have only ever heard it on this message board and never from the mouth of a coach or AD. To the extent they acknowledge it at all it's just some statement about unique challenges to be overcome and not the limiting factor that I am seeing. I see very little evidence that the current administration believe what I believe.

Ultimately, I'm not unreasonable. The minute Wyoming has the success that that we all want to see I'm be the first to admit I'm wrong.

How many more years of mediocre or worse results is it going to take before you would consider what I'm saying to be a possibility? 10? 20?.….. Or will there forever be a mythical coach/AD combo that will forever be available in your mind.

[ragtimejoe1]

How many more years of mediocre or worse results is it going to take before you would consider what I'm saying to be a possibility? 10? 20?.….. Or will there forever be a mythical coach/AD combo that will forever be available in your mind.

The dynamics are constantly changing. We are now more than ever in a conference with teams facing many of the same challenges we are. That is a consistent trend and will likely continue. Bohl took the vprogram up a notch; there is no question about that. Some of that is due to him and some of that is the regression of competition. The mwc is now mostly like the other g5 conferences. HUGE shift in our situation.

If there is no chance to compete, why field a team? If coach and ad don't matter at all, why not just plug in any budget friendly option we can?

Man, you guys are depressing. Little ole WYO will never stand a chance but we'll sure field a team.

Maybe 17 years of mediocrity or worse has a common denominator? Just maybe.

[307bball]

How many more years of mediocre or worse results is it going to take before you would consider what I'm saying to be a possibility? 10? 20?.….. Or will there forever be a mythical coach/AD combo that will forever be available in your mind.

The dynamics are constantly changing. We are now more than ever in a conference with teams facing many of the same challenges we are. That is a consistent trend and will likely continue. Bohl took the vprogram up a notch; there is no question about that. Some of that is due to him and some of that is the regression of competition. The mwc is now mostly like the other g5 conferences. HUGE shift in our situation.

If there is no chance to compete, why field a team? If coach and ad don't matter at all, why not just plug in any budget friendly option we can?

Man, you guys are depressing. Little ole WYO will never stand a chance but we'll sure field a team.

Maybe 17 years of mediocrity or worse has a common denominator? Just maybe.

The dynamics are definitely constantly changing. Have the ever changed towards Wyoming? Even in the conference? Transfers and NIL will have an uneven effect even within the MWC.

As far as conference strength and such... Outside of the TCU, Utah, BYU era of the MWC, our budgets have not really been blown away by the rest of the conference so not much has really changed in that regard. As Oredigger has pointed out through, NIL is one area that we are uncompetitive with even within the conference. Unless something changes there, we will be at a talent disadvantage within conference going forward.

As to your other questions about "why have a team at all". I've tried to answer this and gotten no response from you so I'm not going to reiterate that again.

Do you at least agree that a definitive refutation if what I'm saying would be a three or four year stretch of dominance? When/if that happens, I'm wrong instantly. Until then, show me the evidence that Wyoming is some top tier MWC program waiting to be unlocked with no NIL prospects and an average at best reputation with recruits.

[ragtimejoe1]

The dynamics are constantly changing. We are now more than ever in a conference with teams facing many of the same challenges we are. That is a consistent trend and will likely continue. Bohl took the vprogram up a notch; there is no question about that. Some of that is due to him and some of that is the regression of competition. The mwc is now mostly like the other g5 conferences. HUGE shift in our situation.

If there is no chance to compete, why field a team? If coach and ad don't matter at all, why not just plug in any budget friendly option we can?

Man, you guys are depressing. Little ole WYO will never stand a chance but we'll sure field a team.

Maybe 17 years of mediocrity or worse has a common denominator? Just maybe.

The dynamics are definitely constantly changing. Have the ever changed towards Wyoming? Even in the conference? Transfers and NIL will have an uneven effect even within the MWC.

As far as conference strength and such... Outside of the TCU, Utah, BYU era of the MWC, our budgets have not really been blown away by the rest of the conference so not much has really changed in that regard. As Oredigger has pointed out through, NIL is one area that we are uncompetitive with even within the conference. Unless something changes there, we will be at a talent disadvantage within conference going forward.

As to your other questions about "why have a team at all". I've tried to answer this and gotten no response from you so I'm not going to reiterate that again.

Do you at least agree that a definitive refutation if what I'm saying would be a three or four year stretch of dominance? When/if that happens, I'm wrong instantly. Until then, show me the evidence that Wyoming is some top tier MWC program waiting to be unlocked with no NIL prospects and an average at best reputation with recruits.

Do you think we could compete in fcs? What database are you using to show how far we're behind in NIL? What exact level are we at and what exact level do we need to achieve? How does our NIL compare to csu? We must be far ahead of them.

Dominance? Hell I'm asking for a chip every 5 years or so.

What's the common denominator for the past 17 years?

[ragtimejoe1]

On a separate note, I do think you largely resemble UW as a whole. Little ole WYO is so limited by external factors that we can't be expected to be competitive with peer institutions in any regard.

Maybe you guys are right. The poor me attitude might not be the team for me.

[Wyokie]

On a separate note, I do think you largely resemble UW as a whole. Little ole WYO is so limited by external factors that we can't be expected to be competitive with peer institutions in any regard.

Maybe you guys are right. The poor me attitude might not be the team for me.

I want National Championships but the Black 14 mess in the late '60s made sure that won't ever happen!!!!!!!

How about I simplify this entire conversation for everybody on this entire board...

BLAME BYU for this ^**%^)_^%$&( mess that is Wyoming Athletics!!!!!!

Thank you.

[307bball]

The dynamics are definitely constantly changing. Have the ever changed towards Wyoming? Even in the conference? Transfers and NIL will have an uneven effect even within the MWC.

As far as conference strength and such... Outside of the TCU, Utah, BYU era of the MWC, our budgets have not really been blown away by the rest of the conference so not much has really changed in that regard. As Oredigger has pointed out through, NIL is one area that we are uncompetitive with even within the conference. Unless something changes there, we will be at a talent disadvantage within conference going forward.

As to your other questions about "why have a team at all". I've tried to answer this and gotten no response from you so I'm not going to reiterate that again.

Do you at least agree that a definitive refutation if what I'm saying would be a three or four year stretch of dominance? When/if that happens, I'm wrong instantly. Until then, show me the evidence that Wyoming is some top tier MWC program waiting to be unlocked with no NIL prospects and an average at best reputation with recruits.

Do you think we could compete in fcs? What database are you using to show how far we're behind in NIL? What exact level are we at and what exact level do we need to achieve? How does our NIL compare to csu? We must be far ahead of them.

Dominance? Hell I'm asking for a chip every 5 years or so.

What's the common denominator for the past 17 years?

We absolutely could compete and would be instantly one of the top fcs programs.... That's not saying much though.

As far as CSU vs Wyo NIL potential.... My sense is that we in the same ballpark but I didn't want to be competitive with CSU... They suck. I want to compete with Fresno, BSU, and SDSU.... That ain't happening.

I don't know the exact level we are at with NIL... And you are right to point out that there is a lack of compiled NIL data out there. So I assume you are at least partly basing your argument on the possibility that the widely held notion that Wyoming is a lower tier NIL environment is false. You might be right I suppose... Seems unlikely. Or maybe you think that the marginal college athlete is not making decisions based on NIL potential...again, seems unlikely.

As far as what is possible...a random conference championship once in a while may be possible.... At the rate you suggest? That would be four or five conference titles since 2000... That is pretty dominant. I'd take that.

As far as the last 17 years... Assume you mean Burman. Sure, for him... Won't matter.

I'll ask again... Would it not ultimately refute my argument if Sawvell or the next or the next coach pulled it off?

[ragtimejoe1]

Do you think we could compete in fcs? What database are you using to show how far we're behind in NIL? What exact level are we at and what exact level do we need to achieve? How does our NIL compare to csu? We must be far ahead of them.

Dominance? Hell I'm asking for a chip every 5 years or so.

What's the common denominator for the past 17 years?

We absolutely could compete and would be instantly one of the top fcs programs.... That's not saying much though.

As far as CSU vs Wyo NIL potential.... My sense is that we in the same ballpark but I didn't want to be competitive with CSU... They suck. I want to compete with Fresno, BSU, and SDSU.... That ain't happening.

I don't know the exact level we are at with NIL... And you are right to point out that there is a lack of compiled NIL data out there. So I assume you are at least partly basing your argument on the possibility that the widely held notion that Wyoming is a lower tier NIL environment is false. You might be right I suppose... Seems unlikely. Or maybe you think that the marginal college athlete is not making decisions based on NIL potential...again, seems unlikely.

As far as what is possible...a random conference championship once in a while may be possible.... At the rate you suggest? That would be four or five conference titles since 2000... That is pretty dominant. I'd take that.

As far as the last 17 years... Assume you mean Burman. Sure, for him... Won't matter.

I'll ask again... Would it not ultimately refute my argument if Sawvell or the next or the next coach pulled it off?

So NIL argument only works 1 way? We've dominated certain teams in conference so our NIL must far exceed theirs, right? We must have significant structural advantages to all the teams we've mostly beaten, right? What are they? How much exactly?

We should be able to rank the conference according to these external factors.

Of course if any coach/ad comes in and wins or would show that it can be done at WYO.

How many teams need to leave the mwc before you'd consider our "disadvantages neutralized"? We ready lack top 25 teams. How low does our top ranked teams need to be before little ole WYO can compete?

[WYO1016]

JFC. Just lock the thread already.

[McPeachy]

All I want for NEW YEARS is this thread to be deleted and disappear forever. LOL

Fixed it for me. LOL

[doreno5]

On a separate note, I do think you largely resemble UW as a whole. Little ole WYO is so limited by external factors that we can't be expected to be competitive with peer institutions in any regard.

Maybe you guys are right. The poor me attitude might not be the team for me.

I want National Championships but the Black 14 mess in the late '60s made sure that won't ever happen!!!!!!!

How about I simplify this entire conversation for everybody on this entire board...

BLAME BYU for this ^**%^)_^%$&( mess that is Wyoming Athletics!!!!!!

Thank you.

I blame LLoyd Eaton and UW President Carlson for the Black 14. Had they shown just a little sense, that team was well on its way to a top 10 national ranking and New Years Day bowl game.

[307bball]

So NIL argument only works 1 way?

I'm not sure what you mean by "only works one way". The way it works is, the more NIL $$ available ... the better your chances of getting top talent, it's not rocket science.

We've dominated certain teams in conference so our NIL must far exceed theirs, right? We must have significant structural advantages to all the teams we've mostly beaten, right? What are they? How much exactly?

This is a better question. We all understand that if we played Alabama every year for the last 10....we would be very likely to lose all of them. We understand that a big part of that is the fact that they have far more resources tied up in their football program than we do. I'm using the word resources intentionally because it's not limited to just $$.

First of all...what do we mean by "teams we've mostly beaten", or "We've dominated certain teams in conference"? For reference, since 2005, Wyoming has gone 20-12 against the combo of UNLV and CSU. That is winning just below 2 games out of every three. That is the most dominant we have been over that stretch against anybody in the conference. We are definitely better than them over that stretch but it seems short of dominance.

So Why has Wyoming been consistently better than CSU and UNLV over that stretch? We know it can't be NIL related since most of that "dominance" (not really dominating but I'll set that aside) took place before the NIL era. It must mean that we have far more resources than say CSU or UNLV right? I don't thank that is accurate...My sense is that we are similarly resourced in comparison to those two schools. My theory is that the difference when analyzing those two vs Wyoming...you are seeing mostly the effect of a better ran program without the resource differential clouding out everything else. I would argue that is largely why you see that we are only 1-15 against BSU over that same stretch....but times are changing. In the new transfer and NIL world (hereafter referred to as T&NIL), BSU looks to be separating from the rest of the MWC and to a lessor extent, SDSU, Fresno and possibly UNLV. So, in the future, with BSU already running a better program is going to also accrue to themselves further advantage because they are probably going to be the top T&NIL destination in the MWC. Will Wyoming ever be a top T&NIL program in conference? if the answer is no, and that matters...it will be very hard to be a top MWC program merely by being a "better run program"...that is what Bohl did and nobody is overjoyed by that.

Again...dominating UNLV and CSU is not the only bar you and I want to clear...if you want 4 or 5 championships since 2000 you have to be on the level of BSU, SDSU, and Fresno at a minimum.

We should be able to rank the conference according to these external factors.

You are completely correct. I don't even think it would be that hard if it were your economics research project. I'm using the perceived attractiveness of different programs for conference expansion as a sort of proxy for this ranking. Probably not perfect....but I'm not going to do the research.

Of course if any coach/ad comes in and wins or would show that it can be done at WYO.

How many teams need to leave the mwc before you'd consider our "disadvantages neutralized"? We ready lack top 25 teams. How low does our top ranked teams need to be before little ole WYO can compete?

I don't really look at it that way...but removing BSU, Fresno, and SDSU puts us into a conference we have been at greater parity levels with since '05....I don't like the idea of just doing that, I would rather beat them on the gridiron.

Ragtime...you don't have to have a "little ole Wyo" mindset, as you put it, to notice the things I'm pointing out and thinking about. This is not as binary as you are making it. Everyone loves the idea of David overcoming Goliath...it's what we all want. I want that. But the reason we notice it when it happens is because it's so rare. I wish college football didn't have David and Goliath type disparity's but it does.... I don't know the exact impacts of all of this resource inequity but it sure as heck ain't zero....and it's not getting better it's getting worse. It even looks to create classes of schools within conferences. That is all ... that seems self evident. I too want a better coach and AD. It will definitely matter. I just don't think that excellence at that position with no other changes gets us 4 or 5 conference championships since 2000. I think it would have been better...we would have won more games and that would have been great. I'm all for that. I'm trying to have a conversation w/you about what it would look like if Wyoming were to go on a 4 year stretch where we win 35 or more games again like we havn't done for a very long time and seems increasingly unlikely.

[ragtimejoe1]

Comparing since 2000 is irrelevant. Soon the comparison prior to 2026 (or something) will be irrelevant when the split happens.

Under Bohl, the conference has weakened substantially. fsu, bsu, and suds are hardly Goliath. One small incremental step forward puts us very competitive within the mwc. Nobody is talking about the p5.

You've already acknowledged unlv as similar in regards to whatever external factors you're alluding to (still no idea how you are quantifying any of that) yet they achieved a ccg shortly after new personnel. How'd that happen? If unlv sustains success is it because they all of a sudden gained substantial advantage in the "external factor" category?

Let's end it. I don't agree that in a dog s h I t conference, WYO can't compete for championships. It is my opinion that rather than focus on an incremental step forward the process was well planned and orchestrated to get the younger Bohl a promotion. Cronyism at its finest.

[307bball]

Comparing since 2000 is irrelevant. Soon the comparison prior to 2026 (or something) will be irrelevant when the split happens.

Under Bohl, the conference has weakened substantially. fsu, bsu, and suds are hardly Goliath. One small incremental step forward puts us very competitive within the mwc. Nobody is talking about the p5.

You've already acknowledged unlv as similar in regards to whatever external factors you're alluding to (still no idea how you are quantifying any of that) yet they achieved a ccg shortly after new personnel. How'd that happen? If unlv sustains success is it because they all of a sudden gained substantial advantage in the "external factor" category?

Let's end it. I don't agree that in a dog s h I t conference, WYO can't compete for championships. It is my opinion that rather than focus on an incremental step forward the process was well planned and orchestrated to get the younger Bohl a promotion. Cronyism at its finest.

You are right.... The house of cards that is FBS football is probably going to split and we will be left with programs that we match better with.

As far as the example of UNLV.... If there is a sleeping giant in the MWC...UNLV might be it. They are in an attractive destination city that is awash with $$. I bet UNLV folks are trying very hard to sustain it. Will they make the jump and displace one is the upper echelon MWC programs? Possibly...

Wyoming has not been the best, or even the "best of the rest" in conference since Roach and Tiller. We weren't the best of the non TCU, BYU, Utah group of the "tougher" MWC.... Based on that we shouldn't expect to be the best of the group that got left. Now we definitely could have done better... But that never happened.

Your expectation that the greatly weakened conference should have yielded a championship or two represents a fundamental ignorance that Wyoming exists within the structure that you say has weakened competitively. Is Wyoming a part of that structure/conference or not? Your argument would have some merit if we were the obvious "next best" team behind TCU, Utah, and BYU.... But we weren't.

Ultimately I seem to offend you by disagreeing with you that "the conference sucks" and "Burman sucks". I find your simplistic explanations of complex systems to be inadequate in describing the "why" of Wyoming sports. Burman, Bohl, and whomever else is in charge have there issues... We should hold them accountable for their failings and I'm thankful for your voice in that regard even as I look askance at your reasoning.