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Outlaw Arthur Morgan
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If the Laramie city council were serious about fixing the housing shortage they wouldn't have passed a rental housing act that makes it more expensive for renters. They would cut red tape and make it easier to build . Screw the city council and the county commissioners. A bunch of leftist idiots

Edit: I typed alot here. Main previous point - Laramie needs an elected mayor to keep the wolves out of the hen house. I apologize this post came out like hell.
quote lost.
Edit: I typed alot here too. The forum signed me out. Probably for the best. That post is gone. I'll paraphrase:

I don't care for lizzo's music. Looked for concert tickets nearby as its an interesting comparison being a niche entertainment venue like Wyoming football.

Stumbled upon Snoop Dogg in Casper on 12/21/22. Okay interesting, now we can compare what a typical cowboy fan in casper has to go through to get to laramie as I would to go from Laramie to Casper to see snoop dogg.

- Travel/hotel/food/time off is about the same. Probably around $450 bucks for two people. Its a weekday concert, need at least 4 hours off in the afternoon and 4 hours to return in the AM. Cowboy football doesn't have alot of weekday games, but when they do, time is another problem.

- Ticket costs - snoop ranges from $40-$1200. Wyo football is probably $50-$5000. Maybe $10-20 more a ticket for CSU or Boise. Wash

- The niche experience. Snoop is going to be there for about 1.5 hours. Football is around 3, but when you pull tv breaks out your probably getting an hour of more time for your buck. Snoop's not going to stop and advertise something though, so its a more consistent experience, and your probably less likely to see ads tucked into every corner of existence (unless its for his product)

- And - how I think I've gotten jekyl and hyde and jaded. Held season tickets for 11 years. Used to go to the practices when they were open under glenn (and read names on jersey's until 2013). New some of the coaches, was able to participate in alot more. Now they moved all that away from me and shut it down. And then they just ask for more money constantly while bombarding me with more ads, a far less experience than I had 15-20 years ago. Never saw a live college football game until I as adult being in the middle of Wyo. That sort of experience is long gone.

- The last thing, anyone that is traveling from out of Laramie needs a decent level of respect. They spent alot of money and dedicated alot of time. They probably get more out of it than I do at this point. I'm not going to go to 6 snoop dogg concerts in wyo this year (or 1 even - it was an example). Athletics is getting their levels of support right now, and if they want to keep it and increase it, they need to really rethink the niche experience they provide. You can listen to Lizzo everywhere if you chose to do so. You can do the same with Snoop. You chose that listening. Now to get your butt up and drive to one - where you will get an experience that you won't forget? That's far different than what our football side of the house has become.
ragtimejoe1
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WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
Wyovanian
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He should research CJC membership from 1980 until the re-seating of the AA, then ask for a meeting with our longest-tenured AD.
"WE are the music makers and WE are the dreamers of the dreams." -Willy Wonka (Gene Wilder) Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
stymeman
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LanderPoke wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:59 pm
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:45 pm

Summed it up. Who is responsible for atmosphere?

I include myself in this; WYO fanbase is fairwether and entitled.
I was there. As always
Me too except Northern Colorado and San Jose St, (hunting), and count my trek to Illinois and the sheeep pen @csu...i did my fair share this year as usual, no bowl for me though....
stymeman
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LanderPoke wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:59 pm
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:45 pm

Summed it up. Who is responsible for atmosphere?

I include myself in this; WYO fanbase is fairwether and entitled.
I was there. As always
Me too except Northern Colorado and San Jose St, (hunting), and count my trek to Illinois and the sheeep pen @csu...i did my fair share this year as usual, no bowl for me though.... more September games less October games and 1 November might help (if the product is worth it on the field)
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McPeachy
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Wyovanian wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:36 pm
He should research CJC membership from 1980 until the re-seating of the AA, then ask for a meeting with our longest-tenured AD.
YES!!!! #samepage
Dear Karma,

I have a list of people you missed...
ragtimejoe1
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After decades of following UW, it is clear to me that mediocrity at UW is waaaay more than an AD, coach, or other individual. The easy answer is to call for a head to roll, rinse and repeat.

The reality is, the problems are more complex and certainly multifaceted. That includes a relative lack of consistent fan support.

Accepting of mediocrity isn't those saying firing Bohl may not help. Accepting mediocrity is falling in the trap of appeasement through the hire/fire cycle instead of demanding systemic changes.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:22 am After decades of following UW, it is clear to me that mediocrity at UW is waaaay more than an AD, coach, or other individual. The easy answer is to call for a head to roll, rinse and repeat.

The reality is, the problems are more complex and certainly multifaceted. That includes a relative lack of consistent fan support.

Accepting of mediocrity isn't those saying firing Bohl may not help. Accepting mediocrity is falling in the trap of appeasement through the hire/fire cycle instead of demanding systemic changes.
Yeah I think you are right.

What does it mean to have inconsistent fan support? The reality of the small fan base for the University of Wyoming is pertinent here. Relative to the population base, we probably have great support, but that is a passionate subset of a very small number. We have all been around long enough now to have seen great fan support, even through tough losses, when it's obvious that the team (basketball, football, wrestling, whatever) is competing well through good leadership. One of my favorite basketball teams was the '11-'12 basketball team led by Shyatt...that team only finished 6th in the MW but you could see the sound fundamentals that were being employed and it was obvious that something was being built. If fans can see a bright future...I think they will show up. One of the hardest things on a fan base is to have expectations that don't get met. Think last years football team or this years basketball team. Every coach would love it if they didn't have to worry about fan support even when everybody feels like they are under-performing but, unless you are Nebraska, an under-performing team will bleed fans...even good fans.
doreno5
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"Every coach would love it if they didn't have to worry about fan support even when everybody feels like they are under-performing but, unless you are Nebraska, an under-performing team will bleed fans...even good fans."

I think you can look at any team including Nebraska and that is true. Heck, look at the Broncos. There is no more rabid fan base than those Denver fans who sell out that nearly 80,000 seat stadium every game. Yet based on the comments I hear from Denver sports media and local fans, a lot of them have jumped off the bandwagon and are already demanding the coach's and star quarterback's head.
ragtimejoe1
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The reasons why there are no fans or relatively little fan support, don't matter even if the reasons are true. All I'm saying is that it contributes to WYO's mediocrity. Linder appears to agree. 17k for a game that could determine the champ of the Mtn division against the top dog in the Mtn division? Say whatever you want but it (relative fan support) contributes to mediocrity. I'm not sure that can be fixed??

All I'm getting at is what I said above. Those that aren't evaluating everything and only demanding a single change are accepting mediocrity. It isn't those saying the problems are deeper and changing 1 individual/staff likely won't help.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:51 am The reasons why there are no fans or relatively little fan support, don't matter even if the reasons are true. All I'm saying is that it contributes to WYO's mediocrity. Linder appears to agree. 17k for a game that could determine the champ of the Mtn division against the top dog in the Mtn division? Say whatever you want but it (relative fan support) contributes to mediocrity. I'm not sure that can be fixed??

All I'm getting at is what I said above. Those that aren't evaluating everything and only demanding a single change are accepting mediocrity. It isn't those saying the problems are deeper and changing 1 individual/staff likely won't help.
Is it not a bit of a chicken and egg problem though? Does Nebraska have the sell-out streak without the past dominance? I think not. To me that is the variable that is the best predictor of attendance. Programs with strong histories have the best support. We have all seen good fan support for winners here...but the competitive troughs between the winners is pretty tough.

And I will say again...while overall fan support at Wyoming is not great...relative fan support...meaning how much we are able to get out of a small population base is very good. The percentage of people who have Wyoming roots that care about Wyoming sports is probably higher than most other fanbases. Look at the MW football championship game attendance. The game has been played in Boise 5 times, In Fresno once, at SDSU twice, and at Fresno once. (Also played in Vegas during once in 2020). All of those places have far higher population bases to draw fans from and yet Wyoming's attendance ranks 4th on that list and is ahead of 3 of the 5 played at Boise, and only 500 fans behind one other championship game played at Boise. If you want to talk entitled fan bases...why can't BSU blow us all out of the water...they have a good population base and a great history.
ragtimejoe1
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Who cares about per capita or per whatever else? That doesn't matter at all. What matters is we're in the bottom 30 or so for attendance and that contributes to mediocrity.

Chicken and egg? 17k for bsu with the Mtn division on the line?

Linder sees it.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
ragtimejoe1
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BTW, bsu averaged 35k this year and that's a 1.7% increase year over year vs 19k for us and an 8+% decrease year over year.

I'd say that's blowing us out of the water
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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laxwyo
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This is simple. Laramie is a small crappy town. Someone was crying about using per capita attendance can’t see that if Laramie was 100k people, we’d have much better attendance. Is there a single peer in this country that has fewer people within 100 miles of the university? I’d wager most fcs schools have more people in the general vicinity
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ragtimejoe1
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laxwyo wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:09 pm This is simple. Laramie is a small crappy town. Someone was crying about using per capita attendance can’t see that if Laramie was 100k people, we’d have much better attendance. Is there a single peer in this country that has fewer people within 100 miles of the university? I’d wager most fcs schools have more people in the general vicinity
I'm saying the reason why doesn't matter. Who gives a crap why? What matters is taking the next step out of mediocrity and that won't happen unless all or most of the systemic issues are identified and addressed.

Maybe we can do nothing about attendance but it is a factor regardless of why.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
Wyovanian
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laxwyo wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:09 pm This is simple. Laramie is a small crappy town. Someone was crying about using per capita attendance can’t see that if Laramie was 100k people, we’d have much better attendance. Is there a single peer in this country that has fewer people within 100 miles of the university? I’d wager most fcs schools have more people in the general vicinity
"Crappy" compared to what? Rock f-word Springs? Gillette? Casper? And not to burst your bubble, but there are around half a million people within 100 miles of Laramie. To put it another way, there are about 4M people less than a 3 hour drive from Laramie. UNR, for one, is a peer university with fewer people in a similar radius. Same with Wazzou. As far as FCS schools, I've spent plenty of time in Flagstaff and Bozeman, and Laramie compares very favorably to both, with Laramie having much more of a college town culture than either of them.

You want "crappy"? Try Fargo or Brookings. How about Greeley, Lubbock, Waco, or Las Cruces? Ever been to Ames, Iowa City,, or even Lincoln? Then there's big AND crappy like Houston, Las Vegas, East Lansing-Detroit-Ann Arbor. Hell, USC is located in one of the worst ZIP codes in the U.S.

In the 80's, when almost 30k were packing the War and crowds of 10-12k were the norm at the AA, Laramie had a fraction of the number of hotel rooms it has now. There were no DDD-featured dining spots, and it hadn't been named Best College Town in the U.S., yet those were the attendance numbers with probably around 2/3 the population there is now and about 25% fewer students and alumni.

UW Athletics has managed to alienate a lot of its fan base, it's really as simple as that.
"WE are the music makers and WE are the dreamers of the dreams." -Willy Wonka (Gene Wilder) Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:55 pm
laxwyo wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:09 pm This is simple. Laramie is a small crappy town. Someone was crying about using per capita attendance can’t see that if Laramie was 100k people, we’d have much better attendance. Is there a single peer in this country that has fewer people within 100 miles of the university? I’d wager most fcs schools have more people in the general vicinity
I'm saying the reason why doesn't matter. Who gives a crap why? What matters is taking the next step out of mediocrity and that won't happen unless all or most of the systemic issues are identified and addressed.

Maybe we can do nothing about attendance but it is a factor regardless of why.
It's important to know the reason that things are the way they are....if you know the reason...perhaps it can be changed. I'm saying that a huge part of why we have consistent low fan numbers is our extremely small population base.

Now you can say, "what does one thing have to do with another?"...and "it doesn't matter why we have low attendance...it only matters that we have low attendance"....doesn't the reason we have low attendance interest you at all? The fact that attendance is bad when we are no good is really not a mystery to me...it is solely due to fans generally not wanting to invest time and energy watching us lose. That is true of all fans everywhere. We just don't have the population base in and around Laramie to support high attendance numbers when the fans are expecting a loss.

Do the though experiment...what if Laramie doubled in size...or was cut in half. What effect would that have on attendance? I would say that if Wyoming is good...it almost doesn't matter...the Wyoming fans have proven they will travel to Laramie....but if Wyoming is no good...we are relying on just baseline traditional fan base numbers that are very small.

The answer to this is to "GIT GUD" as the kids say...if you want Wyoming fans to invest in the program...win...win...and win some more. That's the answer...with apologies to Linder, nobody is showing up to watch the home team struggle.
307bball
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Wyovanian wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:18 pm In the 80's, when almost 30k were packing the War and crowds of 10-12k were the norm at the AA, Laramie had a fraction of the number of hotel rooms it has now. There were no DDD-featured dining spots, and it hadn't been named Best College Town in the U.S., yet those were the attendance numbers with probably around 2/3 the population there is now and about 25% fewer students and alumni.

UW Athletics has managed to alienate a lot of its fan base, it's really as simple as that.
Why were they packing it in during that stretch? Was Roach whining to the media about no fan support? Was Brandenburg crying about fans not appreciating the hard work his guys put in?

They won...that is the sauce. 17k showed up to watch the BSU game this year and if you listen to Ragtime you would have thought we had some history of showing up in these games instead of crapping the bed. I would have loved to see a packed stadium for that one but I don't blame fans for saying .. "I've seen this before...why put myself through the turmoil."
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307bball wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:22 pm
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:55 pm

I'm saying the reason why doesn't matter. Who gives a crap why? What matters is taking the next step out of mediocrity and that won't happen unless all or most of the systemic issues are identified and addressed.

Maybe we can do nothing about attendance but it is a factor regardless of why.
It's important to know the reason that things are the way they are....if you know the reason...perhaps it can be changed. I'm saying that a huge part of why we have consistent low fan numbers is our extremely small population base.

Now you can say, "what does one thing have to do with another?"...and "it doesn't matter why we have low attendance...it only matters that we have low attendance"....doesn't the reason we have low attendance interest you at all? The fact that attendance is bad when we are no good is really not a mystery to me...it is solely due to fans generally not wanting to invest time and energy watching us lose. That is true of all fans everywhere. We just don't have the population base in and around Laramie to support high attendance numbers when the fans are expecting a loss.

Do the though experiment...what if Laramie doubled in size...or was cut in half. What effect would that have on attendance? I would say that if Wyoming is good...it almost doesn't matter...the Wyoming fans have proven they will travel to Laramie....but if Wyoming is no good...we are relying on just baseline traditional fan base numbers that are very small.

The answer to this is to "GIT GUD" as the kids say...if you want Wyoming fans to invest in the program...win...win...and win some more. That's the answer...with apologies to Linder, nobody is showing up to watch the home team struggle.
And the only way to win is with more talent, right? Not better coaching, only talent.

This guy.... :roll:
Wyovanian
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307bball wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:27 pm
Wyovanian wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:18 pm In the 80's, when almost 30k were packing the War and crowds of 10-12k were the norm at the AA, Laramie had a fraction of the number of hotel rooms it has now. There were no DDD-featured dining spots, and it hadn't been named Best College Town in the U.S., yet those were the attendance numbers with probably around 2/3 the population there is now and about 25% fewer students and alumni.

UW Athletics has managed to alienate a lot of its fan base, it's really as simple as that.
Why were they packing it in during that stretch? Was Roach whining to the media about no fan support? Was Brandenburg crying about fans not appreciating the hard work his guys put in?

They won...that is the sauce. 17k showed up to watch the BSU game this year and if you listen to Ragtime you would have thought we had some history of showing up in these games instead of crapping the bed. I would have loved to see a packed stadium for that one but I don't blame fans for saying .. "I've seen this before...why put myself through the turmoil."
No doubt a winning team goes a long way to butts-in-seats, but there's more to it than that. Wyoming was doing more with fewer people back then. Now we have more people, more alumni, more hotel rooms, more local attractions, but we didn't even sell out a Conference Championship in Laramie.

TV access has a lot to do with it. Back in Roach and Brandenburg's days a televised game was pretty much a rarity. Combine that with a somewhat competitive, but not stellar program(s), and an Athletic Department that seems to go out of there way to give people a reason NOT to attend games, and you've got a very challenging environment for increasing attendance. It's something I warned certain people about way back in the Joe Glen days. Wyoming also isn't an outlier in attendance trends. It's countrywide. The first thing that UW as an institution can do is to get a better customer-based philosophy vis a vis its fans. Wins and losses they can't control, but their attitude toward the fans they 100% can, regardless of W's and L's. They have got to quit giving people a reason to just watch on TV. They have got to be more creative and forward-thinking about how to get folks out of the watch parties in Denver and into Laramie.
"WE are the music makers and WE are the dreamers of the dreams." -Willy Wonka (Gene Wilder) Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
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