Thorburn Interview With Burman: details on hiring Sawvell, his contract, vision for the future.

[ragtimejoe1]

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footb ... d-hirings/

C+ grade.

[CowboyNV]

"It's never easy to follow a legend, but that is what Sawvell is going to be tasked with after Bohl's success in Laramie. Sawvell has been on Bohl's staff as defensive coordinator and safeties coach since 2020. His previous stops include Wake Forest, Minnesota and several other FBS schools. However, it's hard to imagine a first-time head coach jumping in for a legend and quickly contending for a conference title."

This is from the article referenced by Ragtimejoe1. First off, Bohl was a legend in FCS. A 60-60 record over 10 years at the FBS level is not legendary. It's average, mediocre, middle of the road. The guy was paid a boatload of money for mediocre results. Not my idea of a legend at all. Will it be hard to replace an average coach? I say Sawvell will probably end up around 5-7 or 6-6. Pretty much business as usual at good old Wyoming.

[DamThatRiver22]

At the end of the day, we're all going to be guilty of nothing but speculation for the next eight months...and trying to back it up with random sh*t that suits our narrative. Lol.

Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing, lmao.

[ragtimejoe1]

At the end of the day, we're all going to be guilty of nothing but speculation for the next eight months...and trying to back it up with random sh*t that suits our narrative. Lol.

Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing, lmao.

We do agree on something. There is no way to know things like there would be a mass exodus if the right national search coach were hired or that there would not be. There is no way to know which will ultimately be more successful. I hope the fan boys are giving it to me a year from now, I really do.

Solve the riddle yet?

[307bball]

I'll make the prediction that Wyoming wins 12 games over the next two years.

That prediction is true whether Sawvell is coach or not.

[McPeachy]

I'll make the prediction that Wyoming wins 12 games over the next two years.

That prediction is true whether Sawvell is coach or not.

And there is a large part of our fanbase that would cream their jeans if that happens (12 & 12 over the next 2 seasons). Yeah! 5th place again! Yeah!

[ragtimejoe1]

I'll make the prediction that Wyoming wins 12 games over the next two years.

That prediction is true whether Sawvell is coach or not.

And there is a large part of our fanbase that would cream their jeans if that happens (12 & 12 over the next 2 seasons). Yeah! 5th place again! Yeah!

And defend it against all naysayers. Only at WYO do you build a .500 record by beating sub 75 ranked teams and become so legendary that people are too scared to "blow up the program" to change. I've seen the WYO job listed as one of the worst because of the self-fulfilled prophecies of the ad describing the limitations at WYO. I'd argue it's one of the best. You just need to be 3rd-5th in the MWC which is typically littered with many sub-75 teams and you can become the highest paid coach in the conference.

[307bball]

And there is a large part of our fanbase that would cream their jeans if that happens (12 & 12 over the next 2 seasons). Yeah! 5th place again! Yeah!

This just isn't true.

The vast majority of fans at Wyoming (and most college football fans) want to attend home victories and beat their rival. These fans don't even think about football if it's not gameday. The rest of us degenerate forum-posting fans are decidedly unhappy with anything short of conference championships and high profile bowl appearances.

And defend it against all naysayers. Only at WYO do you build a .500 record by beating sub 75 ranked teams and become so legendary that people are too scared to "blow up the program" to change. I've seen the WYO job listed as one of the worst because of the self-fulfilled prophecies of the ad describing the limitations at WYO. I'd argue it's one of the best. You just need to be 3rd-5th in the MWC which is typically littered with many sub-75 teams and you can become the highest paid coach in the conference.

The idea that "complacency" or "settling for mediocrity" is THE problem with Wyoming athletics needs to take a long walk off a short pier. It's a version of the heckler's veto. There is no way to prove or disprove it, and pointing out the flaws in a plan or system in hindsight is within the reach of every nitwit (including myself) that posts on these message boards. The positions you put forth on here are long on what is wrong and short on plans to address things....and calls to "increase accountability" is not a plan. Then, when you do say something specific like "We should have paid 2.5 mill (or whatever number you had) and had a national HC search while firing Burman", you seem to take it as a personal affront that people don't agree and accuse them of "accepting the limitations at WYO". Your assertion that the Wyoming football HC is "one of the best" definitely puts you in the minority...again..that is fine if you believe that, but when you stake out those positions, don't be surprised or offended when people looks sideways at it.

The structural problems facing Wyoming football and institutions like Wyoming that participate in what used to be the higher levels of College football make predicting pretty easy....look at how many wins a program has averaged for the last 3+ years and it will be a good prediction to just keep using that number....don't get confused by whomever is coaching...it is mattering less and less as time goes by.

[ragtimejoe1]

And there is a large part of our fanbase that would cream their jeans if that happens (12 & 12 over the next 2 seasons). Yeah! 5th place again! Yeah!

This just isn't true.

The vast majority of fans at Wyoming (and most college football fans) want to attend home victories and beat their rival. These fans don't even think about football if it's not gameday. The rest of us degenerate forum-posting fans are decidedly unhappy with anything short of conference championships and high profile bowl appearances.

And defend it against all naysayers. Only at WYO do you build a .500 record by beating sub 75 ranked teams and become so legendary that people are too scared to "blow up the program" to change. I've seen the WYO job listed as one of the worst because of the self-fulfilled prophecies of the ad describing the limitations at WYO. I'd argue it's one of the best. You just need to be 3rd-5th in the MWC which is typically littered with many sub-75 teams and you can become the highest paid coach in the conference.

The idea that "complacency" or "settling for mediocrity" is THE problem with Wyoming athletics needs to take a long walk off a short pier. It's a version of the heckler's veto. There is no way to prove or disprove it, and pointing out the flaws in a plan or system in hindsight is within the reach of every nitwit (including myself) that posts on these message boards. The positions you put forth on here are long on what is wrong and short on plans to address things....and calls to "increase accountability" is not a plan. Then, when you do say something specific like "We should have paid 2.5 mill (or whatever number you had) and had a national HC search while firing Burman", you seem to take it as a personal affront that people don't agree and accuse them of "accepting the limitations at WYO". Your assertion that the Wyoming football HC is "one of the best" definitely puts you in the minority...again..that is fine if you believe that, but when you stake out those positions, don't be surprised or offended when people looks sideways at it.

The structural problems facing Wyoming football and institutions like Wyoming that participate in what used to be the higher levels of College football make predicting pretty easy....look at how many wins a program has averaged for the last 3+ years and it will be a good prediction to just keep using that number....don't get confused by whomever is coaching...it is mattering less and less as time goes by.

Make no mistake, I don't get upset at other opinions. Afterall, please point to a personal attack of mine on another poster. The fanboys, otoh...see my sig.

I also mainly called for Burman to be fired if this decision does not pan out. Really not fire but reassign. Perhaps you are right, nobody really cares that much about championships.

You also seem to buy into this concept that we can't compete because of external factors. Maybe. I remember arguing with Dino about this mentality being a self fulfilling prophecy and part of the problem. Burman's interview with Dino (2016) claimed over and over how there are few funding options other than state money.

Well, we've tried that for 17 years. I say dry up the tit and see if we can wean the athletic department.

Remember the culture of mediocrity and acceptance of that culture were not my words; they were from independent professionals. Maybe just maybe we should have paid more attention to that report rather than spit vile (not necessarily you) comments at those who bring the culture in question.

[307bball]

This just isn't true.

The vast majority of fans at Wyoming (and most college football fans) want to attend home victories and beat their rival. These fans don't even think about football if it's not gameday. The rest of us degenerate forum-posting fans are decidedly unhappy with anything short of conference championships and high profile bowl appearances.



The idea that "complacency" or "settling for mediocrity" is THE problem with Wyoming athletics needs to take a long walk off a short pier. It's a version of the heckler's veto. There is no way to prove or disprove it, and pointing out the flaws in a plan or system in hindsight is within the reach of every nitwit (including myself) that posts on these message boards. The positions you put forth on here are long on what is wrong and short on plans to address things....and calls to "increase accountability" is not a plan. Then, when you do say something specific like "We should have paid 2.5 mill (or whatever number you had) and had a national HC search while firing Burman", you seem to take it as a personal affront that people don't agree and accuse them of "accepting the limitations at WYO". Your assertion that the Wyoming football HC is "one of the best" definitely puts you in the minority...again..that is fine if you believe that, but when you stake out those positions, don't be surprised or offended when people looks sideways at it.

The structural problems facing Wyoming football and institutions like Wyoming that participate in what used to be the higher levels of College football make predicting pretty easy....look at how many wins a program has averaged for the last 3+ years and it will be a good prediction to just keep using that number....don't get confused by whomever is coaching...it is mattering less and less as time goes by.

Make no mistake, I don't get upset at other opinions. Afterall, please point to a personal attack of mine on another poster. The fanboys, otoh...see my sig.

I also mainly called for Burman to be fired if this decision does not pan out. Really not fire but reassign. Perhaps you are right, nobody really cares that much about championships.

You also seem to buy into this concept that we can't compete because of external factors. Maybe. I remember arguing with Dino about this mentality being a self fulfilling prophecy and part of the problem. Burman's interview with Dino (2016) claimed over and over how there are few funding options other than state money.

Well, we've tried that for 17 years. I say dry up the tit and see if we can wean the athletic department.

Remember the culture of mediocrity and acceptance of that culture were not my words; they were from independent professionals. Maybe just maybe we should have paid more attention to that report rather than spit vile (not necessarily you) comments at those who bring the culture in question.

I probably mis-read the tone of some of the posts, srry about that. In general...the mistake people make isn't attacking one another....it's in feeling like you are getting attacked when people disagree.

When it comes to what the majority of fans want out of the college football program that they are supporting...my sense is that everybody wants to be dominant but as long as you are winning home games and beating your rival...things like championships are gravy. I am part of a large family and friend group that follows Wyoming sports and attends men's and women's basketball and football as often as they can. In that entire group, my dad and my brother are the only ones who are following post-season awards, pre-season predictions, conference standings and so on. Everybody else is just happy when the weather on gameday is good and the super nachos don't run out (hehe). I've attended many college football games at Wyoming and elsewhere. The casual fans are overwhelmingly the majority. those are the fans that pack the stadium and cheer like crazy but they just aren't as into it as the die-hards.

On the topic of the Sternberg report...I have not read it....is there action prescribed or is it primarily an indictment of "the culture" so to speak?

When it comes to criticizing or lauding HC's at Wyoming....I think x's and o's, playing time decision's, and recruiting are about all they can credibly be responsible for. These are all things that I have weighed in on. When it strays into things that the BOT or university president or athletic director are managing...I'm skeptical that us outsiders have enough of a picture to have strong and accurate opinions. Obviously...it's trivial in hindsight to say that the hiring of Koenning or Allen Edwards were bad decisions but it's not obvious on the front end. I've been around long enough to see what has succeeded in college football and it does not look good for ole' UW. I do think that market size and reputation with recruits is becoming the driving factor in who succeeds.

[307bball]

One more thought...on the topic of the low number of champions in any sport at UW...

This absolutely makes sense to me. At least in Football and men's Basketball...a lot of the best players are trying to become professionals at their sport. The track and field, swimming, volleyball, wrestling, tennis, golf, and so on participants are making the decision on where to go to school based on academic reputation or proximity to family or a bunch of other factors that the University of Wyoming does not compare favorably with in general.

If you are an overlooked HS recruit in football or men's basketball...you definitely can come to Laramie and get some visibility and make the pros though...it's been done many times!

Burman may not be a good AD but I don't really feel like it's his fault that the non-revenue sports are not succeeding.....

[OrediggerPoke]

One more thought...on the topic of the low number of champions in any sport at UW...

This absolutely makes sense to me. At least in Football and men's Basketball...a lot of the best players are trying to become professionals at their sport. The track and field, swimming, volleyball, wrestling, tennis, golf, and so on participants are making the decision on where to go to school based on academic reputation or proximity to family or a bunch of other factors that the University of Wyoming does not compare favorably with in general.

If you are an overlooked HS recruit in football or men's basketball...you definitely can come to Laramie and get some visibility and make the pros though...it's been done many times!

Burman may not be a good AD but I don't really feel like it's his fault that the non-revenue sports are not succeeding.....

This is nonsense. Non-revenue sport athletes at Wyoming can succeed on a world stage (Bryce Meredith). If the decision is academics there are even some programs where the University of Wyoming is the best in the country/world (see Energy Engineering/School of Energy Resources).

But ‘non-revenue sports’ are suffering the same fate as football and basketball. Donors at some schools are pumping the NIL and thus we lose the Stephen Buchanan’s and Tierney Barlow’s. BTW - tell the University of Nebraska that Volleyball is a non-revenue sport or tell the University of Iowa that wrestling is.

[McPeachy]

Burman may not be a good AD but I don't really feel like it's his fault that the non-revenue sports are not succeeding.....

It is completely his fault (not building / working / striving to win championships). Looking at the MWC peer comparison (somebody posted it a while back), he and his department have the fewest MWC championships of any other MW program. By a huge margin I believe.

[LanderPoke]

One more thought...on the topic of the low number of champions in any sport at UW...

This absolutely makes sense to me. At least in Football and men's Basketball...a lot of the best players are trying to become professionals at their sport. The track and field, swimming, volleyball, wrestling, tennis, golf, and so on participants are making the decision on where to go to school based on academic reputation or proximity to family or a bunch of other factors that the University of Wyoming does not compare favorably with in general.

If you are an overlooked HS recruit in football or men's basketball...you definitely can come to Laramie and get some visibility and make the pros though...it's been done many times!

Burman may not be a good AD but I don't really feel like it's his fault that the non-revenue sports are not succeeding.....

Non revenues are generally better than bball and football

[sandiegopoke]

This is nonsense. Non-revenue sport athletes at Wyoming can succeed on a world stage (Bryce Meredith). If the decision is academics there are even some programs where the University of Wyoming is the best in the country/world (see Energy Engineering/School of Energy Resources).

But ‘non-revenue sports’ are suffering the same fate as football and basketball. Donors at some schools are pumping the NIL and thus we lose the Stephen Buchanan’s and Tierney Barlow’s. BTW - tell the University of Nebraska that Volleyball is a non-revenue sport or tell the University of Iowa that wrestling is.

I remember the Norwegian Electrical Engineers that won as our Alpine ski team (before it became a club sport)!

[307bball]

One more thought...on the topic of the low number of champions in any sport at UW...

This absolutely makes sense to me. At least in Football and men's Basketball...a lot of the best players are trying to become professionals at their sport. The track and field, swimming, volleyball, wrestling, tennis, golf, and so on participants are making the decision on where to go to school based on academic reputation or proximity to family or a bunch of other factors that the University of Wyoming does not compare favorably with in general.

If you are an overlooked HS recruit in football or men's basketball...you definitely can come to Laramie and get some visibility and make the pros though...it's been done many times!

Burman may not be a good AD but I don't really feel like it's his fault that the non-revenue sports are not succeeding.....

This is nonsense. Non-revenue sport athletes at Wyoming can succeed on a world stage (Bryce Meredith). If the decision is academics there are even some programs where the University of Wyoming is the best in the country/world (see Energy Engineering/School of Energy Resources).

But ‘non-revenue sports’ are suffering the same fate as football and basketball. Donors at some schools are pumping the NIL and thus we lose the Stephen Buchanan’s and Tierney Barlow’s. BTW - tell the University of Nebraska that Volleyball is a non-revenue sport or tell the University of Iowa that wrestling is.

I'm not staying that people like Bryce Meredith don't appear at Wyoming.

And nobody has to convince you and me that the university of Wyoming is great....I love it and I expect you do too. What do recruits think? That is what matters relative to how many desired and talented players end up in Laramie.

The question was never "can anybody win a championship at anything at the University of Wyoming?"...the question is this "Does the large gap in conference champions in any sport at the University of Wyoming relative to the other conference schools indicate, in the main, a failing in the athletic department?". Whether the top 1% of 1% of volleyball or wrestling programs lose money or not doesn't matter one whit. This was a problem before NIL payments became a thing....but the ease of transferring is what is putting the nail in the coffin of Wyoming (and other non big-time) athletics.

To be clear, I'm not answering this question in the affirmative or negative...i'm pointing out that the phenomenon is explicable either entirely or in the main, by other factors. Burman could still be a bad AD and may not be the reason for these results.

[ragtimejoe1]

The Sternberg report outlined several deficiencies and paths forward. Burman and coaches largely bemoaned the report rather than using it for reflecting on the department.

Regarding all the other external factors, why even try? If the external factors have put us in a spot that we can't succeed, why not close up shop?

If coach doesn't matter and ad doesn't matter, then why bemoan a change or chastise others who think a change can help?

I'm not sure I'm following the logic?

[307bball]

The Sternberg report outlined several deficiencies and paths forward. Burman and coaches largely bemoaned the report rather than using it for reflecting on the department.

Regarding all the other external factors, why even try? If the external factors have put us in a spot that we can't succeed, why not close up shop?

If coach doesn't matter and ad doesn't matter, then why bemoan a change or chastise others who think a change can help?

I'm not sure I'm following the logic?

I can imagine that if the report advocated for the AD to do something radical...then he would criticize the report...but what coaches complained?

Your question re: external factors is one I'm grappling with. I don't see the road map to success regardless of AD or coach. Coming out of the '90s I was disappointed with cowboy football and athletics in general but I had no idea how bad it would be for the next 20+ years. If you would have told me, in 1999, how utterly mediocre Wyoming athletics would be in the next century I would have scoffed at you at the time. Of course I did not forsee the fundamental way that the influx of $$ in college athletics were going to alter the balance of power away from Wyoming....maybe for good. I don't think you are an optimist necessarily (I'll let you characterize yourself) but you, and others, seem convinced that athletic success at Wyoming is mostly an issue of getting the right coaches and administrators into those positions. I don't think that is actually the case.

I'm not even sure that "success" looks like conference championships in the eyes of University leadership. I used to think that was the case, but now it makes more sense to look at it as a marketing effort. Viewed in that lens, the football team under Craig Bohl is eminently worth what was spent to maintain it. The Basketball team has had a bright year or three since Bailey was in uniform....but it's largely not been that successful. To answer your question "Why even try?", I'm not sure but it seems like the answer is not "To be the best in the MWC". From my perspective it is some combination of a mechanism by which to keep wealthy donors engaged combined with a mission of offering athletics to students handed down from the legislature.

[ragtimejoe1]

The Sternberg report outlined several deficiencies and paths forward. Burman and coaches largely bemoaned the report rather than using it for reflecting on the department.

Regarding all the other external factors, why even try? If the external factors have put us in a spot that we can't succeed, why not close up shop?

If coach doesn't matter and ad doesn't matter, then why bemoan a change or chastise others who think a change can help?

I'm not sure I'm following the logic?

I can imagine that if the report advocated for the AD to do something radical...then he would criticize the report...but what coaches complained?

Your question re: external factors is one I'm grappling with. I don't see the road map to success regardless of AD or coach. Coming out of the '90s I was disappointed with cowboy football and athletics in general but I had no idea how bad it would be for the next 20+ years. If you would have told me, in 1999, how utterly mediocre Wyoming athletics would be in the next century I would have scoffed at you at the time. Of course I did not forsee the fundamental way that the influx of $$ in college athletics were going to alter the balance of power away from Wyoming....maybe for good. I don't think you are an optimist necessarily (I'll let you characterize yourself) but you, and others, seem convinced that athletic success at Wyoming is mostly an issue of getting the right coaches and administrators into those positions. I don't think that is actually the case.

I'm not even sure that "success" looks like conference championships in the eyes of University leadership. I used to think that was the case, but now it makes more sense to look at it as a marketing effort. Viewed in that lens, the football team under Craig Bohl is eminently worth what was spent to maintain it. The Basketball team has had a bright year or three since Bailey was in uniform....but it's largely not been that successful. To answer your question "Why even try?", I'm not sure but it seems like the answer is not "To be the best in the MWC". From my perspective it is some combination of a mechanism by which to keep wealthy donors engaged combined with a mission of offering athletics to students handed down from the legislature.

Shyatt, if I remember correctly, had a few comments.

The report had several recommendations. A few that come to mind are making it easier to transfer credits (maybe more important now), diversifying revenue (Burman is legislature-centric), and incorporate athletics in long-term university planning.

An example of success from a coaching change is Kill at nmsu; there is obviously the csu example in the other direction.

What I don't understand is that if people truly belive it is hopeless regardless, then there should be no opposition to change. Are you worried in a step back from mediocrity? If the people in charge of the ad and coaching positions are limited in ceiling then surely they are limited in floor by the same powers, no? Alternatively, do you believe they are maximizing WYO's potential in ways nobody else can?

I'm trying to understand the opposition to change?

[307bball]

I can imagine that if the report advocated for the AD to do something radical...then he would criticize the report...but what coaches complained?

Your question re: external factors is one I'm grappling with. I don't see the road map to success regardless of AD or coach. Coming out of the '90s I was disappointed with cowboy football and athletics in general but I had no idea how bad it would be for the next 20+ years. If you would have told me, in 1999, how utterly mediocre Wyoming athletics would be in the next century I would have scoffed at you at the time. Of course I did not forsee the fundamental way that the influx of $$ in college athletics were going to alter the balance of power away from Wyoming....maybe for good. I don't think you are an optimist necessarily (I'll let you characterize yourself) but you, and others, seem convinced that athletic success at Wyoming is mostly an issue of getting the right coaches and administrators into those positions. I don't think that is actually the case.

I'm not even sure that "success" looks like conference championships in the eyes of University leadership. I used to think that was the case, but now it makes more sense to look at it as a marketing effort. Viewed in that lens, the football team under Craig Bohl is eminently worth what was spent to maintain it. The Basketball team has had a bright year or three since Bailey was in uniform....but it's largely not been that successful. To answer your question "Why even try?", I'm not sure but it seems like the answer is not "To be the best in the MWC". From my perspective it is some combination of a mechanism by which to keep wealthy donors engaged combined with a mission of offering athletics to students handed down from the legislature.

Shyatt, if I remember correctly, had a few comments.

The report had several recommendations. A few that come to mind are making it easier to transfer credits (maybe more important now), diversifying revenue (Burman is legislature-centric), and incorporate athletics in long-term university planning.

An example of success from a coaching change is Kill at nmsu; there is obviously the csu example in the other direction.

What I don't understand is that if people truly belive it is hopeless regardless, then there should be no opposition to change. Are you worried in a step back from mediocrity? If the people in charge of the ad and coaching positions are limited in ceiling then surely they are limited in floor by the same powers, no? Alternatively, do you believe they are maximizing WYO's potential in ways nobody else can?

I'm trying to understand the opposition to change?

Are you worried in a step back from mediocrity? Yes...I do think it can get worse...and worse is, well, worse.

If the people in charge of the ad and coaching positions are limited in ceiling then surely they are limited in floor by the same powers, no? No I do not think the effect is symmetrical at the lower end....there really is nothing at the bottom that will keep us from sinking below programs that we are historically better than.

Alternatively, do you believe they are maximizing WYO's potential in ways nobody else can? Yes and no....I would say that my worry is that they are are maximizing WYO's potential in ways anybody else can.

Not being familiar with the report...I doubt I'm against any sort of change that the report advocated...I'm to the point that I'm pessimistic that it would have the effect we want it to have. I have finally, after many many years, enjoyed Cowboy football like I have not been able to since '96 or so... It's not like it's where I want it to be but i'm not disgusted with the product 5 years out of every 6. I don't think I'm alone in that. I would imagine that is what people see as highly likely in the event there are wholesale changes.

What if we turned this around? What is Nick Saban or Jim Harbaugh doing that would be replicable at a mid-tier Football program? I think a lot of their success is attributable to the massive, massive market that is behind them. They are truly maximizing what is possible at their respective schools. What if they came to coach at say Colorado State or Wyoming? How much better would they be? Would they dominate the MW like they have dominated the SEC and B10? is there nothing keeping us from being as good as Boise St? What about the uneven revenue distribution? surely that matters?

I think it's a real possibility that the people in charge do not view this like you and I....for them it is working as intended and our concerns over no championships don't matter to them. Even our disagreement on "why" there are no championships is immaterial if that is the case.