Vigen has to go

Everything Wyoming Cowboy and Mountain West football!
OrediggerPoke
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bladerunnr wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:17 am
If you want to count close losses as a good thing, go right ahead. But the MWC is probably the weakest its ever been.
Also - for the MWC being the weakest it has ever been this year, it sure must have been lucky to win all of those games against P5 teams in the regular season (I believe most in conference history for the regular season).

Let's recap some of these basement MWC teams this year:
UNLV - Lost 17-53 against Wyoming. Beat Vanderbilt on the road 34-10.
SJSU- Won 2 games in the MWC. Didn't play Wyoming. Beat Arkansas 31-24 on the road.
Nevada - Lost 3-31 against Wyoming. Beat Purdue 34-31.
Hawaii - Lost to Boise, Air Force and Fesno. Beat Arizona 45-38. Beat Oregon State 31-28.
San Diego State - Beat Wyoming 26-22 on a miracle play from Agnew. Beat UCLA 23-14.
Boise State - Rallied to beat Wyoming 20-17 in OT as Rothe missed a relatively easy FG. Beat Florida State 36-31.
Air Force - Beat Wyoming 20-6. Beat Colorado 30-23.
Wyoming- Beat Missouri.

Yep, MWC sure must be garbage.
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bladerunnr wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:14 pm Utah St. was not in the conference then. We had only 2 conference losses. Our defense improved dramatically after that Utah St. loss. The offense was dynamic and if Brett Smith doesn't get hurt, we might have beat TCU as well. We played a lot tougher non conference schedule back then. Nebraska ended the season in the top 20. Where did Missouri finish the year? They fired their coach. The fact is, we did not have a single quality win this year or last year.
Oh yes I forgot. Utah State was in the powerhouse WAC then losing to powerhouses such as Louisiana Tech and Ohio but beating Wyoming 63-19.

I also must have forgot about the improved defense that 2011 season but that could be because I can't get Bernard Pierce out of my mind breaking about 50 arm tackles as Temple ran as out of the building to close out the season with our vastly improved defense.
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OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:22 pm
bladerunnr wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:17 am
If you want to count close losses as a good thing, go right ahead. But the MWC is probably the weakest its ever been.
Also - for the MWC being the weakest it has ever been this year, it sure must have been lucky to win all of those games against P5 teams in the regular season (I believe most in conference history for the regular season).

Let's recap some of these basement MWC teams this year:
UNLV - Lost 17-53 against Wyoming. Beat Vanderbilt on the road 34-10.
SJSU- Won 2 games in the MWC. Didn't play Wyoming. Beat Arkansas 31-24 on the road.
Nevada - Lost 3-31 against Wyoming. Beat Purdue 34-31.
Hawaii - Lost to Boise, Air Force and Fesno. Beat Arizona 45-38. Beat Oregon State 31-28.
San Diego State - Beat Wyoming 26-22 on a miracle play from Agnew. Beat UCLA 23-14.
Boise State - Rallied to beat Wyoming 20-17 in OT as Rothe missed a relatively easy FG. Beat Florida State 36-31.
Air Force - Beat Wyoming 20-6. Beat Colorado 30-23.
Wyoming- Beat Missouri.

Yep, MWC sure must be garbage.
Mizzou- 6-6, Head Coach resigned
Colorado- 4-7
Florida State- 6-6 Head Coach fired
Ucla- 4-8
Oregon State- 5-7
Arizona- 4-8
Purdue- 4-8
Arkansas- 2-9
Vanderbilt- 3-9

In short, the Pee5 teams that lost to MWC programs were a combined 38-68.

To paraphrase Chris Rock, you don't deserve credit for sh-t you're SUPPOSED to do. Like beat bad teams.
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bladerunnr wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:14 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:42 am
bladerunnr wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:17 am
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:51 am
307bball wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:44 am
SheepSlayer wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:58 am For those not on the Fire Vigen bandwagon, can you make an argument that he should stay or one that defends his performance without saying "it's Bohl's decision"?

For those using the injury excuse, our offense scored 16 points against 3-9 Sun Belt team Texas St (7 of which were after an INT gave them a short field) and 21 points against 5-7 FCS team Idaho (7 of which were on a 14 yard drive after a long punt return and 7 were on a 1 play 80 yard drive). Both of those games were before the Tulsa game where we truly did get a ton of injuries.
I'm not on or off the "fire Vigen" bandwagon. Look at my numerous posts that say I could care less if he stays or goes....but I'll try to answer your question. But, I warn you, nothing I have to say should be misconstrued as a defense for poor production.

I'm very pro-the current culture and direction of the program. I have no inside information but it seems like he's well liked, and a part of, that culture. During the worst of DC's time here there seemed to be a distinct feeling that the offense was letting the team down...while that may be the case then (and now) it's important for the locker room culture to band together...I think Bohl/Vigen have done that.

High offensive production is not really all that important to a team that plays like Wyoming...it's great to score more but with a light's out defense you can still be successful (and even great) with a below average offense. DC's teams were the opposite...they needed to be in the top quarter of Offenses to be successful as a team. You may point out that our Offense is too far below average and you'd get no argument from me.

Finally, for myself, a big part of my good feelings about the current program has to do with how they compete for every game. Even the "good years" from the last 20 years included some truly head-scratching blowouts. This program seems to line up toe-to-toe with even the better teams on the schedule and I've never seen that as an adult Wyoming fan. In my opinion this program is as good as it's ever been relative to the conference and schedule it plays in.

Ultimately this did not turn into much of a defense of Vigen...more of a "here is why i'm relatively happy with the current program (even with Vigen)".
Very well stated. This team competes as good as any Wyoming team since about the 1996 Wyoming team. Even the 2016 Wyoming team had some head scratchers (see New Mexico blowout).
Simply isn't true. The 2011 DC team was 5-2 in the MWC. We were big road underdogs at SDS and Air Force and won both. Our 2 losses in conference were to TCU and Boise St, both of which finished the season ranked in the top 15.
If you want to count close losses as a good thing, go right ahead. But the MWC is probably the weakest its ever been. Losing close games to mediocre teams like San Diego State and Utah State are hardly games to hang your hat on if you are trying to claim we are that much better under Bohl. The 2011 team would have gone undefeated in the conference (Brett Smith's Freshman year).
You have to be joking!!! That 2011 team would go undefeated?!?!? WTF are you smoking.

I still have nightmares of Robert Turbin and a very mediocre Utah State team running Wyoming out of the building. 63-19 loss to 7-6 Utah State. Let me repeat that 2011 Wyoming team gave up 63 to a 7-6 Utah State team. Oh and the bowl game that year, Wyoming was also blown out 37-15 against a mediocre 9-4 MAC team (Temple was in the MAC then).

If you want to hang your hat on team getting blown out by Utah State and a MAC team, all the best to you.

PS: Wyoming lost 3 games in the MWC that season along with blowout losses to Nebraska at home and Temple in Albuquerque.
Utah St. was not in the conference then. We had only 2 conference losses. Our defense improved dramatically after that Utah St. loss. The offense was dynamic and if Brett Smith doesn't get hurt, we might have beat TCU as well. We played a lot tougher non conference schedule back then. Nebraska ended the season in the top 20. Where did Missouri finish the year? They fired their coach. The fact is, we did not have a single quality win this year or last year.
And Bohl's 2016 team allowed a 4-8 UNLV team to hang 69 points on them - not sure that loss to a 7-6 USU is worse. And that 2016 bunch was arguably the best team Bohl has coached at Wyoming. Like I've said before, Bohl's tenure at Wyoming has been a few steps below spectacular, more like average to slightly below average. He's done some good things, he's done some not so good things, and time will tell if he is truly the guy. After six years I'm still on the fence. I love the way the kids compete, but this philosophy of imposing one's will when the other team has proven they are not going to have anybody's will imposed on them is insanity. It's like a fighter who continues to lead with his chin, claiming that sooner or later that guys hands are going to be so sore that he won't be able to hurt him anymore (an interesting philosophy as long as one does not get knocked out along the way).
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CowboyNV wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:16 pm
And Bohl's 2016 team allowed a 4-8 UNLV team to hang 69 points on them - not sure that loss to a 7-6 USU is worse. And that 2016 bunch was arguably the best team Bohl has coached at Wyoming. Like I've said before, Bohl's tenure at Wyoming has been a few steps below spectacular, more like average to slightly below average. He's done some good things, he's done some not so good things, and time will tell if he is truly the guy. After six years I'm still on the fence. I love the way the kids compete, but this philosophy of imposing one's will when the other team has proven they are not going to have anybody's will imposed on them is insanity. It's like a fighter who continues to lead with his chin, claiming that sooner or later that guys hands are going to be so sore that he won't be able to hurt him anymore (an interesting philosophy as long as one does not get knocked out along the way).
I already stated earlier in the thread that this was the first year Wyoming has actually competed in every game since 1996 since I have been following Wyoming football. Worse than the loss to UNLV in 2016 was the disaster at New Mexico in 2016 when New Mexico ran for like 600 yards and Josh Allen was lit up because of an ineffective offensive line. As much NFL talent as the 2016 team had, I enjoyed this year's team more.
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OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:23 pm
CowboyNV wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:16 pm
And Bohl's 2016 team allowed a 4-8 UNLV team to hang 69 points on them - not sure that loss to a 7-6 USU is worse. And that 2016 bunch was arguably the best team Bohl has coached at Wyoming. Like I've said before, Bohl's tenure at Wyoming has been a few steps below spectacular, more like average to slightly below average. He's done some good things, he's done some not so good things, and time will tell if he is truly the guy. After six years I'm still on the fence. I love the way the kids compete, but this philosophy of imposing one's will when the other team has proven they are not going to have anybody's will imposed on them is insanity. It's like a fighter who continues to lead with his chin, claiming that sooner or later that guys hands are going to be so sore that he won't be able to hurt him anymore (an interesting philosophy as long as one does not get knocked out along the way).
I already stated earlier in the thread that this was the first year Wyoming has actually competed in every game since 1996 since I have been following Wyoming football. Worse than the loss to UNLV in 2016 was the disaster at New Mexico in 2016 when New Mexico ran for like 600 yards and Josh Allen was lit up because of an ineffective offensive line. As much NFL talent as the 2016 team had, I enjoyed this year's team more.
We can agree to disagree. But I don't understand that kind of thinking. In 2016, we beat csewe by 4 tds on their field. We beat an undefeated Boise st. team and a damn good San Diego St. team. This year, we barely beat Idaho and a horrible Texas state team. We beat a bunch of bad teams at home and did absolutely nothing on the road, except play a lot of low scoring games. But I'll grant you that we were in every game. Obviously, that's more important to you than actually winning.
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bladerunnr wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:57 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:23 pm
CowboyNV wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:16 pm
And Bohl's 2016 team allowed a 4-8 UNLV team to hang 69 points on them - not sure that loss to a 7-6 USU is worse. And that 2016 bunch was arguably the best team Bohl has coached at Wyoming. Like I've said before, Bohl's tenure at Wyoming has been a few steps below spectacular, more like average to slightly below average. He's done some good things, he's done some not so good things, and time will tell if he is truly the guy. After six years I'm still on the fence. I love the way the kids compete, but this philosophy of imposing one's will when the other team has proven they are not going to have anybody's will imposed on them is insanity. It's like a fighter who continues to lead with his chin, claiming that sooner or later that guys hands are going to be so sore that he won't be able to hurt him anymore (an interesting philosophy as long as one does not get knocked out along the way).
I already stated earlier in the thread that this was the first year Wyoming has actually competed in every game since 1996 since I have been following Wyoming football. Worse than the loss to UNLV in 2016 was the disaster at New Mexico in 2016 when New Mexico ran for like 600 yards and Josh Allen was lit up because of an ineffective offensive line. As much NFL talent as the 2016 team had, I enjoyed this year's team more.
We can agree to disagree. But I don't understand that kind of thinking. In 2016, we beat csewe by 4 tds on their field. We beat an undefeated Boise st. team and a damn good San Diego St. team. This year, we barely beat Idaho and a horrible Texas state team. We beat a bunch of bad teams at home and did absolutely nothing on the road, except play a lot of low scoring games. But I'll grant you that we were in every game. Obviously, that's more important to you than actually winning.
I believe we will end this year with the same amount of wins that we had in 2016. The 2016 team had a lot of flaws. This team has the potential in a year or two to be much much better than the 2016 team in terms of wins. This is what excites me.
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For those who are asking I've done the math on Bohl vs winning teams and Bohl vs losing teams.

Vs Winning 9 -30

Vs losing 21 - 8
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bladerunnr wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:57 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:23 pm
CowboyNV wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:16 pm
And Bohl's 2016 team allowed a 4-8 UNLV team to hang 69 points on them - not sure that loss to a 7-6 USU is worse. And that 2016 bunch was arguably the best team Bohl has coached at Wyoming. Like I've said before, Bohl's tenure at Wyoming has been a few steps below spectacular, more like average to slightly below average. He's done some good things, he's done some not so good things, and time will tell if he is truly the guy. After six years I'm still on the fence. I love the way the kids compete, but this philosophy of imposing one's will when the other team has proven they are not going to have anybody's will imposed on them is insanity. It's like a fighter who continues to lead with his chin, claiming that sooner or later that guys hands are going to be so sore that he won't be able to hurt him anymore (an interesting philosophy as long as one does not get knocked out along the way).
I already stated earlier in the thread that this was the first year Wyoming has actually competed in every game since 1996 since I have been following Wyoming football. Worse than the loss to UNLV in 2016 was the disaster at New Mexico in 2016 when New Mexico ran for like 600 yards and Josh Allen was lit up because of an ineffective offensive line. As much NFL talent as the 2016 team had, I enjoyed this year's team more.
We can agree to disagree. But I don't understand that kind of thinking. In 2016, we beat csewe by 4 tds on their field. We beat an undefeated Boise st. team and a damn good San Diego St. team. This year, we barely beat Idaho and a horrible Texas state team. We beat a bunch of bad teams at home and did absolutely nothing on the road, except play a lot of low scoring games. But I'll grant you that we were in every game. Obviously, that's more important to you than actually winning.
I don't think that is obvious at all. There is no direct line between calling the lack of blowout losses a good thing and preferring close losses to winning. The converse of this would be, as you mentioned, the close wins to "inferior" competition....Nobody feels good about squeaking by Idaho or Texas St. Why? because it feels like a game we should dominate and we didn't. At least in the end they ended up in the win column which has not always happened in the past. The loss to BSU was soooooo close to a win. If i'm a player that is really no comfort to me but as a fan i'm willing to acknowledge the degree of difficulty wins and losses.
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OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:19 am
BackHarlowRoad wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:14 am
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am Christensens 9 win team means nothing, even though that's the highest win total weve had since the mid 90s.
In the past 30 years, Wyoming has won more than 8 games twice. 1990 and 1996. I must've fell through a wormhole or something when DC did it.
Yep! He must be referring to Christensen's 9 loss season. What a great and memorable season that was. Wish we could go back to those glory days...
Yep, I was wrong. I'll admit it when I'm wrong. Others should try it, instead a doubling down and making ridiculous arguments to support what they've said in this past :) In fact, if we keep Vigen and we ever win a conference championship or have an offense that isn't terrible, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, and I'll be happy to do so.

Christensen had an 8 win season in 5 years coaching. In 5 years Bohl has won 8 twice (with one being in a 14 game season.) He has the chance to repeat an 8 win season this year, though I'd be surprised if we did considering our abysmal record outside the war and against teams with a pulse.

As far as the straw man statement goes that's hilarious. I literally compiled the Vigen defenders arguments that I've heard over the past several years, and gave the reasons I think they were wrong. The only thing I added that I haven't heard directly on this board is that some of them are his buddies. That was half joking, but the way some of you defend him and try to promote him, literally saying he should be our next coach despite his performance as a coordinator, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it weren't true.

Besides, it's all in good fun, and we all just want this to get better. What else are we gonna talk about, our basketball team? No thanks!
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bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:24 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:19 am
BackHarlowRoad wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:14 am
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am Christensens 9 win team means nothing, even though that's the highest win total weve had since the mid 90s.
In the past 30 years, Wyoming has won more than 8 games twice. 1990 and 1996. I must've fell through a wormhole or something when DC did it.
Yep! He must be referring to Christensen's 9 loss season. What a great and memorable season that was. Wish we could go back to those glory days...
Yep, I was wrong. I'll admit it when I'm wrong. Others should try it, instead a doubling down and making ridiculous arguments to support what they've said in this past :) In fact, if we keep Vigen and we ever win a conference championship or have an offense that isn't terrible, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, and I'll be happy to do so.

Christensen had an 8 win season in 5 years coaching. In 5 years Bohl has won 8 twice (with one being in a 14 game season.) He has the chance to repeat an 8 win season this year, though I'd be surprised if we did considering our abysmal record outside the war and against teams with a pulse.

As far as the straw man statement goes that's hilarious. I literally compiled the Vigen defenders arguments that I've heard over the past several years, and gave the reasons I think they were wrong. The only thing I added that I haven't heard directly on this board is that some of them are his buddies. That was half joking, but the way some of you defend him and try to promote him, literally saying he should be our next coach despite his performance as a coordinator, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it weren't true.

Besides, it's all in good fun, and we all just want this to get better. What else are we gonna talk about, our basketball team? No thanks!
LMAO...talk about basketball...That actually made me laugh! At least we would agree on something ... hahahaha!
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bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:24 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:19 am
BackHarlowRoad wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:14 am
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am Christensens 9 win team means nothing, even though that's the highest win total weve had since the mid 90s.
In the past 30 years, Wyoming has won more than 8 games twice. 1990 and 1996. I must've fell through a wormhole or something when DC did it.
Yep! He must be referring to Christensen's 9 loss season. What a great and memorable season that was. Wish we could go back to those glory days...
Yep, I was wrong. I'll admit it when I'm wrong. Others should try it, instead a doubling down and making ridiculous arguments to support what they've said in this past :) In fact, if we keep Vigen and we ever win a conference championship or have an offense that isn't terrible, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, and I'll be happy to do so.

Christensen had an 8 win season in 5 years coaching. In 5 years Bohl has won 8 twice (with one being in a 14 game season.) He has the chance to repeat an 8 win season this year, though I'd be surprised if we did considering our abysmal record outside the war and against teams with a pulse.

As far as the straw man statement goes that's hilarious. I literally compiled the Vigen defenders arguments that I've heard over the past several years, and gave the reasons I think they were wrong. The only thing I added that I haven't heard directly on this board is that some of them are his buddies. That was half joking, but the way some of you defend him and try to promote him, literally saying he should be our next coach despite his performance as a coordinator, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it weren't true.

Besides, it's all in good fun, and we all just want this to get better. What else are we gonna talk about, our basketball team? No thanks!
As one of the members of this board that has been called out by name as supporting Vigen in very inappropriate terms....You definitely did not characterize my "support" of Vigen in any way that was even close to accurate...hence "straw man". Your first flaw was in thinking I have any loyalty to Vigen at all. I don't .... I don't hate the guy either. Just because somebody does not blindly agree w/you and points out other things that are objective truths...(as you did..I acknowledge that when you make claims about the offense that you are right on), doesn't make them a Vigen supporter. There are a lot of factors to W's and L's ... I reject a simplistic "Wyoming without Vigen is amazing" argument. I happen to believe that good teams are just that....TEAMS. You can't just slot Bohl's defense with DC's offense (although at times that offense was no good)...there has to be a "fit".

Finally...as far as excuses are concerned. I don't play college football...I assume that you don't either. If I was on the team and the guy ahead of me on the depth chart went down and we lost...the last thing I would say is "well if the starter hadn't been hurt we would have won". That is an excuse, pure and simple. Players and coaches must internalize the reasons that a game is won or lost and not make excuses. As fans/observers/commentators we get to speculate on the REASONS for under or over performance. I think ESPN.com had an article today looking at the reasons why Alabama fell out of the CFP this year. It was very interesting....talked a lot about a bunch of stuff from injuries to LSU finding a new gear on offense. It's all stuff that no self-respecting Alabama player or coach would ever use as an excuse but it's sure as heck not false!

As I mentioned before...I felt "bad" about the Win over Idaho because I expected to mop the floor w/them...I felt "good" about the loss to BSU because I did not expect Wyoming to contend in that game. Was it "bad" that we beat Idaho? or "good" that we lost to BSU? ...I don't think it is ever that simple.
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Wicks wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:58 pm For those who are asking I've done the math on Bohl vs winning teams and Bohl vs losing teams.

Vs Winning 9 -30

Vs losing 21 - 8
I'm guessing at least half of those wins against winning teams came in 1 year... when the offense had a pulse?
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:20 pm
Wicks wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:58 pm For those who are asking I've done the math on Bohl vs winning teams and Bohl vs losing teams.

Vs Winning 9 -30

Vs losing 21 - 8
I'm guessing at least half of those wins against winning teams came in 1 year... when the offense had a pulse?
Bohl wins versus winning teams

2014: Air Force
2015: Nevada
2016: at CSU, Air Force, Boise State, SDSU
2017: Colorado State, Central Michigan
2018: Nevada

1 on the road, 3 without Josh Allen
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307bball wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:53 pm
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:24 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:19 am
BackHarlowRoad wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:14 am
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am Christensens 9 win team means nothing, even though that's the highest win total weve had since the mid 90s.
In the past 30 years, Wyoming has won more than 8 games twice. 1990 and 1996. I must've fell through a wormhole or something when DC did it.
Yep! He must be referring to Christensen's 9 loss season. What a great and memorable season that was. Wish we could go back to those glory days...
Yep, I was wrong. I'll admit it when I'm wrong. Others should try it, instead a doubling down and making ridiculous arguments to support what they've said in this past :) In fact, if we keep Vigen and we ever win a conference championship or have an offense that isn't terrible, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, and I'll be happy to do so.

Christensen had an 8 win season in 5 years coaching. In 5 years Bohl has won 8 twice (with one being in a 14 game season.) He has the chance to repeat an 8 win season this year, though I'd be surprised if we did considering our abysmal record outside the war and against teams with a pulse.

As far as the straw man statement goes that's hilarious. I literally compiled the Vigen defenders arguments that I've heard over the past several years, and gave the reasons I think they were wrong. The only thing I added that I haven't heard directly on this board is that some of them are his buddies. That was half joking, but the way some of you defend him and try to promote him, literally saying he should be our next coach despite his performance as a coordinator, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it weren't true.

Besides, it's all in good fun, and we all just want this to get better. What else are we gonna talk about, our basketball team? No thanks!
As one of the members of this board that has been called out by name as supporting Vigen in very inappropriate terms....You definitely did not characterize my "support" of Vigen in any way that was even close to accurate...hence "straw man". Your first flaw was in thinking I have any loyalty to Vigen at all. I don't .... I don't hate the guy either. Just because somebody does not blindly agree w/you and points out other things that are objective truths...(as you did..I acknowledge that when you make claims about the offense that you are right on), doesn't make them a Vigen supporter. There are a lot of factors to W's and L's ... I reject a simplistic "Wyoming without Vigen is amazing" argument. I happen to believe that good teams are just that....TEAMS. You can't just slot Bohl's defense with DC's offense (although at times that offense was no good)...there has to be a "fit".

Finally...as far as excuses are concerned. I don't play college football...I assume that you don't either. If I was on the team and the guy ahead of me on the depth chart went down and we lost...the last thing I would say is "well if the starter hadn't been hurt we would have won". That is an excuse, pure and simple. Players and coaches must internalize the reasons that a game is won or lost and not make excuses. As fans/observers/commentators we get to speculate on the REASONS for under or over performance. I think ESPN.com had an article today looking at the reasons why Alabama fell out of the CFP this year. It was very interesting....talked a lot about a bunch of stuff from injuries to LSU finding a new gear on offense. It's all stuff that no self-respecting Alabama player or coach would ever use as an excuse but it's sure as heck not false!

As I mentioned before...I felt "bad" about the Win over Idaho because I expected to mop the floor w/them...I felt "good" about the loss to BSU because I did not expect Wyoming to contend in that game. Was it "bad" that we beat Idaho? or "good" that we lost to BSU? ...I don't think it is ever that simple.
Good lord. You felt good losing to BSU, that’s disgusting. Thank god you’re not involved with or directly connected to the football team. Moral victories are for pee wee teams and CSU fans. The ugliest win is always better than the prettiest loss. It’s funny you mention Alabama having excuses for dropping and one of them being their opponents offense found another gear. Imagine our record this year if our offense had any gears...
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ItSucksToBeACSURam
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307bball wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:53 pm
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:24 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:19 am
BackHarlowRoad wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:14 am
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am Christensens 9 win team means nothing, even though that's the highest win total weve had since the mid 90s.
In the past 30 years, Wyoming has won more than 8 games twice. 1990 and 1996. I must've fell through a wormhole or something when DC did it.
Yep! He must be referring to Christensen's 9 loss season. What a great and memorable season that was. Wish we could go back to those glory days...
Yep, I was wrong. I'll admit it when I'm wrong. Others should try it, instead a doubling down and making ridiculous arguments to support what they've said in this past :) In fact, if we keep Vigen and we ever win a conference championship or have an offense that isn't terrible, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, and I'll be happy to do so.

Christensen had an 8 win season in 5 years coaching. In 5 years Bohl has won 8 twice (with one being in a 14 game season.) He has the chance to repeat an 8 win season this year, though I'd be surprised if we did considering our abysmal record outside the war and against teams with a pulse.

As far as the straw man statement goes that's hilarious. I literally compiled the Vigen defenders arguments that I've heard over the past several years, and gave the reasons I think they were wrong. The only thing I added that I haven't heard directly on this board is that some of them are his buddies. That was half joking, but the way some of you defend him and try to promote him, literally saying he should be our next coach despite his performance as a coordinator, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it weren't true.

Besides, it's all in good fun, and we all just want this to get better. What else are we gonna talk about, our basketball team? No thanks!
As one of the members of this board that has been called out by name as supporting Vigen in very inappropriate terms....You definitely did not characterize my "support" of Vigen in any way that was even close to accurate...hence "straw man". Your first flaw was in thinking I have any loyalty to Vigen at all. I don't .... I don't hate the guy either. Just because somebody does not blindly agree w/you and points out other things that are objective truths...(as you did..I acknowledge that when you make claims about the offense that you are right on), doesn't make them a Vigen supporter. There are a lot of factors to W's and L's ... I reject a simplistic "Wyoming without Vigen is amazing" argument. I happen to believe that good teams are just that....TEAMS. You can't just slot Bohl's defense with DC's offense (although at times that offense was no good)...there has to be a "fit".

Finally...as far as excuses are concerned. I don't play college football...I assume that you don't either. If I was on the team and the guy ahead of me on the depth chart went down and we lost...the last thing I would say is "well if the starter hadn't been hurt we would have won". That is an excuse, pure and simple. Players and coaches must internalize the reasons that a game is won or lost and not make excuses. As fans/observers/commentators we get to speculate on the REASONS for under or over performance. I think ESPN.com had an article today looking at the reasons why Alabama fell out of the CFP this year. It was very interesting....talked a lot about a bunch of stuff from injuries to LSU finding a new gear on offense. It's all stuff that no self-respecting Alabama player or coach would ever use as an excuse but it's sure as heck not false!

As I mentioned before...I felt "bad" about the Win over Idaho because I expected to mop the floor w/them...I felt "good" about the loss to BSU because I did not expect Wyoming to contend in that game. Was it "bad" that we beat Idaho? or "good" that we lost to BSU? ...I don't think it is ever that simple.
And another thing, what more do you need to see from Vigen?

I for one have seen enough to risk making a change and it getting worse than to stand pat knowing full well it will not get better.
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phxpoke
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Herm Edwards from ASU fired hiss offensive coordinator today after a record of 7-5. I listened to his entire interview and couldn't help but think about our situation. He was saying in order to be successful in today's college football a team must score at least 30 points a game if they want to consistently win 9-10 games a year. Wish Bohl had this forward thinking. Edwards wasn't happy with above average. We shouldn't settle either.
307bball
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ItSucksToBeACSURam wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:08 pm
307bball wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:53 pm
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:24 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:19 am
BackHarlowRoad wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:14 am
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am Christensens 9 win team means nothing, even though that's the highest win total weve had since the mid 90s.
In the past 30 years, Wyoming has won more than 8 games twice. 1990 and 1996. I must've fell through a wormhole or something when DC did it.
Yep! He must be referring to Christensen's 9 loss season. What a great and memorable season that was. Wish we could go back to those glory days...
Yep, I was wrong. I'll admit it when I'm wrong. Others should try it, instead a doubling down and making ridiculous arguments to support what they've said in this past :) In fact, if we keep Vigen and we ever win a conference championship or have an offense that isn't terrible, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, and I'll be happy to do so.

Christensen had an 8 win season in 5 years coaching. In 5 years Bohl has won 8 twice (with one being in a 14 game season.) He has the chance to repeat an 8 win season this year, though I'd be surprised if we did considering our abysmal record outside the war and against teams with a pulse.

As far as the straw man statement goes that's hilarious. I literally compiled the Vigen defenders arguments that I've heard over the past several years, and gave the reasons I think they were wrong. The only thing I added that I haven't heard directly on this board is that some of them are his buddies. That was half joking, but the way some of you defend him and try to promote him, literally saying he should be our next coach despite his performance as a coordinator, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it weren't true.

Besides, it's all in good fun, and we all just want this to get better. What else are we gonna talk about, our basketball team? No thanks!
As one of the members of this board that has been called out by name as supporting Vigen in very inappropriate terms....You definitely did not characterize my "support" of Vigen in any way that was even close to accurate...hence "straw man". Your first flaw was in thinking I have any loyalty to Vigen at all. I don't .... I don't hate the guy either. Just because somebody does not blindly agree w/you and points out other things that are objective truths...(as you did..I acknowledge that when you make claims about the offense that you are right on), doesn't make them a Vigen supporter. There are a lot of factors to W's and L's ... I reject a simplistic "Wyoming without Vigen is amazing" argument. I happen to believe that good teams are just that....TEAMS. You can't just slot Bohl's defense with DC's offense (although at times that offense was no good)...there has to be a "fit".

Finally...as far as excuses are concerned. I don't play college football...I assume that you don't either. If I was on the team and the guy ahead of me on the depth chart went down and we lost...the last thing I would say is "well if the starter hadn't been hurt we would have won". That is an excuse, pure and simple. Players and coaches must internalize the reasons that a game is won or lost and not make excuses. As fans/observers/commentators we get to speculate on the REASONS for under or over performance. I think ESPN.com had an article today looking at the reasons why Alabama fell out of the CFP this year. It was very interesting....talked a lot about a bunch of stuff from injuries to LSU finding a new gear on offense. It's all stuff that no self-respecting Alabama player or coach would ever use as an excuse but it's sure as heck not false!

As I mentioned before...I felt "bad" about the Win over Idaho because I expected to mop the floor w/them...I felt "good" about the loss to BSU because I did not expect Wyoming to contend in that game. Was it "bad" that we beat Idaho? or "good" that we lost to BSU? ...I don't think it is ever that simple.
Good lord. You felt good losing to BSU, that’s disgusting. Thank god you’re not involved with or directly connected to the football team. Moral victories are for pee wee teams and CSU fans. The ugliest win is always better than the prettiest loss. It’s funny you mention Alabama having excuses for dropping and one of them being their opponents offense found another gear. Imagine our record this year if our offense had any gears...
*Sigh*

Learn to interpret context...I realize you are a big man and cannot distinguish anything beyond "duh win equals good...lose equals bad". Putting a word in quotes signifies that it is being used in a manner that is not according to it's normal usage. This is not uncommon. When you see "good" or "bad" used in a context that is confusing to you, do yourself a favor and sit with that confusion... Challenge yourself to find the real meaning that the author was trying to impart. Don't get too down on yourself if it's not obvious at first. Heck... They taught a gorilla sign language!
307bball
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ItSucksToBeACSURam wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:11 pm
307bball wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:53 pm
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:24 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:19 am
BackHarlowRoad wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:14 am
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am Christensens 9 win team means nothing, even though that's the highest win total weve had since the mid 90s.
In the past 30 years, Wyoming has won more than 8 games twice. 1990 and 1996. I must've fell through a wormhole or something when DC did it.
Yep! He must be referring to Christensen's 9 loss season. What a great and memorable season that was. Wish we could go back to those glory days...
Yep, I was wrong. I'll admit it when I'm wrong. Others should try it, instead a doubling down and making ridiculous arguments to support what they've said in this past :) In fact, if we keep Vigen and we ever win a conference championship or have an offense that isn't terrible, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, and I'll be happy to do so.

Christensen had an 8 win season in 5 years coaching. In 5 years Bohl has won 8 twice (with one being in a 14 game season.) He has the chance to repeat an 8 win season this year, though I'd be surprised if we did considering our abysmal record outside the war and against teams with a pulse.

As far as the straw man statement goes that's hilarious. I literally compiled the Vigen defenders arguments that I've heard over the past several years, and gave the reasons I think they were wrong. The only thing I added that I haven't heard directly on this board is that some of them are his buddies. That was half joking, but the way some of you defend him and try to promote him, literally saying he should be our next coach despite his performance as a coordinator, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it weren't true.

Besides, it's all in good fun, and we all just want this to get better. What else are we gonna talk about, our basketball team? No thanks!
As one of the members of this board that has been called out by name as supporting Vigen in very inappropriate terms....You definitely did not characterize my "support" of Vigen in any way that was even close to accurate...hence "straw man". Your first flaw was in thinking I have any loyalty to Vigen at all. I don't .... I don't hate the guy either. Just because somebody does not blindly agree w/you and points out other things that are objective truths...(as you did..I acknowledge that when you make claims about the offense that you are right on), doesn't make them a Vigen supporter. There are a lot of factors to W's and L's ... I reject a simplistic "Wyoming without Vigen is amazing" argument. I happen to believe that good teams are just that....TEAMS. You can't just slot Bohl's defense with DC's offense (although at times that offense was no good)...there has to be a "fit".

Finally...as far as excuses are concerned. I don't play college football...I assume that you don't either. If I was on the team and the guy ahead of me on the depth chart went down and we lost...the last thing I would say is "well if the starter hadn't been hurt we would have won". That is an excuse, pure and simple. Players and coaches must internalize the reasons that a game is won or lost and not make excuses. As fans/observers/commentators we get to speculate on the REASONS for under or over performance. I think ESPN.com had an article today looking at the reasons why Alabama fell out of the CFP this year. It was very interesting....talked a lot about a bunch of stuff from injuries to LSU finding a new gear on offense. It's all stuff that no self-respecting Alabama player or coach would ever use as an excuse but it's sure as heck not false!

As I mentioned before...I felt "bad" about the Win over Idaho because I expected to mop the floor w/them...I felt "good" about the loss to BSU because I did not expect Wyoming to contend in that game. Was it "bad" that we beat Idaho? or "good" that we lost to BSU? ...I don't think it is ever that simple.
And another thing, what more do you need to see from Vigen?

I for one have seen enough to risk making a change and it getting worse than to stand pat knowing full well it will not get better.
I'm open to interpreting that this is as good as it gets with the current staff. Heck if all you did is short Wyoming football stock for the last 30 years you'd be rich! Something feels different to me about Bohl though. I am probably wrong...heck, If history is any guide, Wyoming will always wallow in mediocrity. I really hope I'm right though.
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ItSucksToBeACSURam
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307bball wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:33 pm
ItSucksToBeACSURam wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:08 pm
307bball wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:53 pm
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:24 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:19 am
BackHarlowRoad wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:14 am
bullbugle307 wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am Christensens 9 win team means nothing, even though that's the highest win total weve had since the mid 90s.
In the past 30 years, Wyoming has won more than 8 games twice. 1990 and 1996. I must've fell through a wormhole or something when DC did it.
Yep! He must be referring to Christensen's 9 loss season. What a great and memorable season that was. Wish we could go back to those glory days...
Yep, I was wrong. I'll admit it when I'm wrong. Others should try it, instead a doubling down and making ridiculous arguments to support what they've said in this past :) In fact, if we keep Vigen and we ever win a conference championship or have an offense that isn't terrible, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, and I'll be happy to do so.

Christensen had an 8 win season in 5 years coaching. In 5 years Bohl has won 8 twice (with one being in a 14 game season.) He has the chance to repeat an 8 win season this year, though I'd be surprised if we did considering our abysmal record outside the war and against teams with a pulse.

As far as the straw man statement goes that's hilarious. I literally compiled the Vigen defenders arguments that I've heard over the past several years, and gave the reasons I think they were wrong. The only thing I added that I haven't heard directly on this board is that some of them are his buddies. That was half joking, but the way some of you defend him and try to promote him, literally saying he should be our next coach despite his performance as a coordinator, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it weren't true.

Besides, it's all in good fun, and we all just want this to get better. What else are we gonna talk about, our basketball team? No thanks!
As one of the members of this board that has been called out by name as supporting Vigen in very inappropriate terms....You definitely did not characterize my "support" of Vigen in any way that was even close to accurate...hence "straw man". Your first flaw was in thinking I have any loyalty to Vigen at all. I don't .... I don't hate the guy either. Just because somebody does not blindly agree w/you and points out other things that are objective truths...(as you did..I acknowledge that when you make claims about the offense that you are right on), doesn't make them a Vigen supporter. There are a lot of factors to W's and L's ... I reject a simplistic "Wyoming without Vigen is amazing" argument. I happen to believe that good teams are just that....TEAMS. You can't just slot Bohl's defense with DC's offense (although at times that offense was no good)...there has to be a "fit".

Finally...as far as excuses are concerned. I don't play college football...I assume that you don't either. If I was on the team and the guy ahead of me on the depth chart went down and we lost...the last thing I would say is "well if the starter hadn't been hurt we would have won". That is an excuse, pure and simple. Players and coaches must internalize the reasons that a game is won or lost and not make excuses. As fans/observers/commentators we get to speculate on the REASONS for under or over performance. I think ESPN.com had an article today looking at the reasons why Alabama fell out of the CFP this year. It was very interesting....talked a lot about a bunch of stuff from injuries to LSU finding a new gear on offense. It's all stuff that no self-respecting Alabama player or coach would ever use as an excuse but it's sure as heck not false!

As I mentioned before...I felt "bad" about the Win over Idaho because I expected to mop the floor w/them...I felt "good" about the loss to BSU because I did not expect Wyoming to contend in that game. Was it "bad" that we beat Idaho? or "good" that we lost to BSU? ...I don't think it is ever that simple.
Good lord. You felt good losing to BSU, that’s disgusting. Thank god you’re not involved with or directly connected to the football team. Moral victories are for pee wee teams and CSU fans. The ugliest win is always better than the prettiest loss. It’s funny you mention Alabama having excuses for dropping and one of them being their opponents offense found another gear. Imagine our record this year if our offense had any gears...
*Sigh*

Learn to interpret context...I realize you are a big man and cannot distinguish anything beyond "duh win equals good...lose equals bad". Putting a word in quotes signifies that it is being used in a manner that is not according to it's normal usage. This is not uncommon. When you see "good" or "bad" used in a context that is confusing to you, do yourself a favor and sit with that confusion... Challenge yourself to find the real meaning that the author was trying to impart. Don't get too down on yourself if it's not obvious at first. Heck... They taught a gorilla sign language!
As do teams that win consistently. You think Boise State cares about context? Or do they care about winning? You think Michigan cares they scored more this season against Ohio State than they did last season? You think Washington cares they beat the brakes off WSU again? Hell no. They're hella pissed they finished 7-5.

If not being satisfied by mediocrity is derpy to you, then I will take my crayons and will go derp it up. You can keep your "Good Enough" cool aid.
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