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Bball gurus, are we in trouble?

R

ragtimejoe1

Well-known member
There is no doubt that the college basketball game is moving in the direction of NBA- or International-like rules. The shot clock was shortened to 30 seconds and now there is a (minor) push for 24. They've extended the charge zone and others want to increase the lane from 12 feet wide to 16. All of these rules benefit offense and athletic ability by creating space and increasing tempo.

At WYO, we run a grinding offense and defense aimed at marginalizing talent discrepancy. It has worked decently, overall, and I think was a wise decision by Shyatt. The man knows basketball. However, as the game changes, will our style be less effective? Is it already less effective?

Something to consider: year/possessions per game
2015-2016/68.6 (note: 1st year of 30 second clock)
2014-2015/61.2
2013-2014/62.9
2012-2013/62.4
2011-2012/62.3

So, generically speaking, we averaged about 6.5 more possessions this year x 30 seconds is just over 3 minutes. I didn't get to watch much this year, so, for the bball gurus here, how big of impact did this have?

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting anything; just wondering if the rule changes have impacted us and/or might have significant impacts in the future?
 
The shot clock doesn't change things, IMO. You could say a shorter shot clock, while it increases pace of play, also allows defensive teams to not have to defend for such long periods (It's easier to deny a player a good shot if he can only have the ball for 30 seconds as opposed to 35 seconds).

The other rules however...
 
I would say we are already adapting. Last season: 642 3 pt. FGA and we made 32.6% of those shots. This season: 852 3 pt. FGA, and we made 37.2% of those shots. To some degree that's an effect of losing Nance and Cooke, but I saw perimeter shooting and spacing as a bigger component of our offense this season.

For next year, I think the two keys to a successful season will be:

1. Will Alan Herndon put in the time to work on his jumper such that he can reliably make 35% or more of his threes? We've been told that his destiny is as a stretch 4 and that would appear to fit his body type and skill set. He has a decent shooting stroke but going into his junior year it is put up or shut up time with his ability from beyond the arc. I hear a lot about how he needs to eat and get in the weight room so he can be an interior presence, blah blah blah, but that's not what he's supposed to be bringing to this team. The way this roster is constructed and in the freedom of movement/pace and space direction basketball is going, the only way he can really be a part of a championship team is if he can shoot. He isn't bringing rim protection or rebounding, so we have to play one of Naughton or Barnes with him on the floor. He's not a low-post offense guy and that's where Naughton/Barnes should be living anyways. Mr. Herndon needs to get in the gym and shoot until his arms fall off every day.

(To a lesser extent, this is all true of Dalton as well.)

2. Will Justin James develop into the playmaker we need in the post-Adams era? He's the only one on the roster for next season who you can say is really capable of breaking down defenses and getting his own shot. We need him to be the guy who gets the ball late in the shot clock when the play has broken down. His length allows him to shoot over people and he is already a decent three-point shooter. He can put the ball on the floor if you crowd him. He's been touted as a guy with point-guard skills. He has to be the creator and he has to show good decision-making. That was the thing in Adams' game that took the longest to develop. James won't have that luxury. He will have to be the go-to guy starting next year. This team will be lacking an offensive alpha-dog. I expect McManamen to be the emotional leader of the team, but he's not the guy who is going to get the ball with 8 seconds on the shot clock in crunch time and say "I got this." For me right now, that guy has to be James.

Honestly, our roster sets up really nicely in terms of who fills what roles for next year:

1: Lieberman (starter) - He will be the primary ballhandler. He got valuable experience in the second half of the season especially after Washington left. His confidence seemed to improve as the season went along. He ended the season at 34.5% from 3 pt. distance even after his disastrous start. He demonstrated good decision-making as he was asked to take on a bigger role. I expect him to be a solid starting PG - league average. It's possible we'll see him with Conway together at times if we decide to go small.

Conway (backup) - We haven't really seen him play but from what we know, he's jet-quick and disruptive. He should be a nice change-of-pace type as a redshirt freshman who can spell Lieberman and give a different dimension to the team.

2/3: McManamen (starter) - As I noted before, he'll be the emotional leader. What can you say about him? He's improved every year in all facets of the game, he's arguably the best shooter in the conference, he defends three positions, and he has a knack for hitting big shots in big situations. He is this team's most valuable player next season and should challenge for first-team all-conference honors.

Justin James (starter) - discussed above. He has to step up.

Aka-Gorski (backup) - He's the player I think would be squeezed out if we shortened the bench to go to an 8 man rotation. Still, he's a good shooter and can fill a role as a three-point specialist. It's hard to see what else he's bringing to the table for a championship-caliber team though.

Marshall (backup) - It's apparent he is utterly clueless defensively (and it's not clear he really understands what we're doing with the ball either), and unless he rectifies that he will continue be a garbage-time only player.

4: Herndon (starter) - also discussed above. He has to be a real threat facing the basket to stretch defenses out. If he becomes a weapon in pick-and-pop and spot-up situations it will really open things up for the rest of the offense.

Dalton (backup) - Right now he's a slightly better rebounder and defender than Herndon but more limited offensively. They're overall pretty duplicative of each other and if they play together for long stretches we will have problems getting stops.

5: Naughton (starter) - I think he grows into a starting role next season but more or less shares time with Barnes. Like Herndon/Dalton these two guys are providing many of the same things and can't really play together for much time. Naughton's a grinder and could really grow into a space-eater on the block on both ends next year. He's shown flashes of offensive ability but really he'll get most of his points on putbacks and dishes off of penetration. He's got better hands than Barnes.

Barnes (backup) - He's the better defender of the two and that's really his most important contribution. Hopefully he grows into a more effective rebounder because that is the main deficiency in his game.

I don't know enough about Moemeka but I'm guessing he'll find it hard to break into the rotation.

Overall: I really think we have the pieces to be really good next year. What we have is complementary to one another; it isn't a team where you look at it and think the pieces just don't fit together. We have a logical rotation, a bit of flexibility to go big or small, and enough shooting to play a 4 in/1 out kind of system and stretch teams out. We'll need a couple of players to really make medium-sized leaps but I think they are capable of it, and assuming normal development curves for everyone else I think we'll be in the upper half of the conference again next year.
 
Cowduck said:
I would say we are already adapting. Last season: 642 3 pt. FGA and we made 32.6% of those shots. This season: 852 3 pt. FGA, and we made 37.2% of those shots. To some degree that's an effect of losing Nance and Cooke, but I saw perimeter shooting and spacing as a bigger component of our offense this season.

For next year, I think the two keys to a successful season will be:

1. Will Alan Herndon put in the time to work on his jumper such that he can reliably make 35% or more of his threes? We've been told that his destiny is as a stretch 4 and that would appear to fit his body type and skill set. He has a decent shooting stroke but going into his junior year it is put up or shut up time with his ability from beyond the arc. I hear a lot about how he needs to eat and get in the weight room so he can be an interior presence, blah blah blah, but that's not what he's supposed to be bringing to this team. The way this roster is constructed and in the freedom of movement/pace and space direction basketball is going, the only way he can really be a part of a championship team is if he can shoot. He isn't bringing rim protection or rebounding, so we have to play one of Naughton or Barnes with him on the floor. He's not a low-post offense guy and that's where Naughton/Barnes should be living anyways. Mr. Herndon needs to get in the gym and shoot until his arms fall off every day.

(To a lesser extent, this is all true of Dalton as well.)

2. Will Justin James develop into the playmaker we need in the post-Adams era? He's the only one on the roster for next season who you can say is really capable of breaking down defenses and getting his own shot. We need him to be the guy who gets the ball late in the shot clock when the play has broken down. His length allows him to shoot over people and he is already a decent three-point shooter. He can put the ball on the floor if you crowd him. He's been touted as a guy with point-guard skills. He has to be the creator and he has to show good decision-making. That was the thing in Adams' game that took the longest to develop. James won't have that luxury. He will have to be the go-to guy starting next year. This team will be lacking an offensive alpha-dog. I expect McManamen to be the emotional leader of the team, but he's not the guy who is going to get the ball with 8 seconds on the shot clock in crunch time and say "I got this." For me right now, that guy has to be James.

Honestly, our roster sets up really nicely in terms of who fills what roles for next year:

1: Lieberman (starter) - He will be the primary ballhandler. He got valuable experience in the second half of the season especially after Washington left. His confidence seemed to improve as the season went along. He ended the season at 34.5% from 3 pt. distance even after his disastrous start. He demonstrated good decision-making as he was asked to take on a bigger role. I expect him to be a solid starting PG - league average. It's possible we'll see him with Conway together at times if we decide to go small.

Conway (backup) - We haven't really seen him play but from what we know, he's jet-quick and disruptive. He should be a nice change-of-pace type as a redshirt freshman who can spell Lieberman and give a different dimension to the team.

2/3: McManamen (starter) - As I noted before, he'll be the emotional leader. What can you say about him? He's improved every year in all facets of the game, he's arguably the best shooter in the conference, he defends three positions, and he has a knack for hitting big shots in big situations. He is this team's most valuable player next season and should challenge for first-team all-conference honors.

Justin James (starter) - discussed above. He has to step up.

Aka-Gorski (backup) - He's the player I think would be squeezed out if we shortened the bench to go to an 8 man rotation. Still, he's a good shooter and can fill a role as a three-point specialist. It's hard to see what else he's bringing to the table for a championship-caliber team though.

Marshall (backup) - It's apparent he is utterly clueless defensively (and it's not clear he really understands what we're doing with the ball either), and unless he rectifies that he will continue be a garbage-time only player.

4: Herndon (starter) - also discussed above. He has to be a real threat facing the basket to stretch defenses out. If he becomes a weapon in pick-and-pop and spot-up situations it will really open things up for the rest of the offense.

Dalton (backup) - Right now he's a slightly better rebounder and defender than Herndon but more limited offensively. They're overall pretty duplicative of each other and if they play together for long stretches we will have problems getting stops.

5: Naughton (starter) - I think he grows into a starting role next season but more or less shares time with Barnes. Like Herndon/Dalton these two guys are providing many of the same things and can't really play together for much time. Naughton's a grinder and could really grow into a space-eater on the block on both ends next year. He's shown flashes of offensive ability but really he'll get most of his points on putbacks and dishes off of penetration. He's got better hands than Barnes.

Barnes (backup) - He's the better defender of the two and that's really his most important contribution. Hopefully he grows into a more effective rebounder because that is the main deficiency in his game.

I don't know enough about Moemeka but I'm guessing he'll find it hard to break into the rotation.

Overall: I really think we have the pieces to be really good next year. What we have is complementary to one another; it isn't a team where you look at it and think the pieces just don't fit together. We have a logical rotation, a bit of flexibility to go big or small, and enough shooting to play a 4 in/1 out kind of system and stretch teams out. We'll need a couple of players to really make medium-sized leaps but I think they are capable of it, and assuming normal development curves for everyone else I think we'll be in the upper half of the conference again next year.
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Very good post. I agree with almost everything here.
I think Herndon got better on the defensive end toward the end of the year. The last game he ended up with a double double. I agree he needs to shoot well and is not a player that will post people up but I think he can and will get better on the defensive end of the court down low.
I agree we need James to step up big and become a major offensive threat but I also thing the McM can still grow and become the offensive alpha dog. I think he will be more than just an amazing 3 point shooter next year. But James will still need to become a/the major offensive threat on this team.
 
JimmyDimes said:
Adv8RU12 said:
But how many of the High Five will be here next season?
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IMO all of them. If any of them don't return next year, my guess would be Marshall.
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Not sure Marshall would even want to be back. I am sure the feeling mutual for both parties. If the rumors are true about another of the High 5 growing is own buds, then he ought to be gone too.
 
I do like Cowducks post a lot but I wish I shared his optimism about us potentially being really good next year. Ragtime I don't think the shot clock or pace of play are really the important issues, the problem is simply the general lack of talent on the roster. Doesn't matter what the scheme or anything else is if you simply don't have the horses to keep up (no different than football). We just have a huge portion of the roster tied up in the classes of 13-14 that aren't very productive.
 
it truly is turning into a jack it up from 3 game more often than not, but as the shot clock i like it where it is and those coaches that teach good D fundamentals I think we'll be ok, we just have to get up on the 3 pt assassins more and play a well rounded game of bball. I love Jason and Jordan the rest of them will have grow on me even more, Herndon needs to put on some weight and take it to the hole, James needs to step it up, and Gorski as well, it's their team, Barnes will ok as long as he progresses the right way. Dalton can be good with weight as well, and might be our new crowd fave, but we'll see. The other new guys the jury will truly be out on them, Lieberman I'm not sold on him AT ALL, we shall see
 
calpoke25 said:
I do like Cowducks post a lot but I wish I shared his optimism about us potentially being really good next year. Ragtime I don't think the shot clock or pace of play are really the important issues, the problem is simply the general lack of talent on the roster. Doesn't matter what the scheme or anything else is if you simply don't have the horses to keep up (no different than football). We just have a huge portion of the roster tied up in the classes of 13-14 that aren't very productive.
Click to expand...

I think you're underrating how much players have improved under Shyatt historically. The players we need the biggest leaps from happen to be our most talented players, and Cooke, Nance, and Adams are the players who improved the most from years 1-4 (3 in Cooke's case) in the past. But even role players have mostly trended up. We're deeper than we've ever been in the Shyatt era. Next year's starting 5 will consist of a steady PG with better shooting than we've had from that spot in years, a potential first-team all-MWC SG who might flirt with 50% from 3, the most overall talented wing player in recent Wyoming history, an athletic and experienced four who is a jump shot away from wrecking defenses, and a big, strong post player who will be able to hold his own against any of his counterparts in the league. We'll have at least three guys off the bench who will be able to contribute.

Also, don't overlook the attrition around the league. Boise St. is losing Drmic and Thompson. Fresno is losing Harris. CSU is losing a bunch of guys. Nevada is losing Coleman and Criswell. I'd say we're in a better position even with the loss of Adams from top to bottom than any of those teams after their seniors are gone, and it isn't like any of those teams were really that good this year. I expect New Mexico to improve substantially next year, and SDSU will continue to be the best team in the league, but I don't think you can definitively say any other team besides those two in the MWC will be head and shoulders better than Wyoming. We'll need some things to go our way, but a top-five finish is easily within our reach.
 
Cowduck said:
calpoke25 said:
I do like Cowducks post a lot but I wish I shared his optimism about us potentially being really good next year. Ragtime I don't think the shot clock or pace of play are really the important issues, the problem is simply the general lack of talent on the roster. Doesn't matter what the scheme or anything else is if you simply don't have the horses to keep up (no different than football). We just have a huge portion of the roster tied up in the classes of 13-14 that aren't very productive.
Click to expand...

I think you're underrating how much players have improved under Shyatt historically. The players we need the biggest leaps from happen to be our most talented players, and Cooke, Nance, and Adams are the players who improved the most from years 1-4 (3 in Cooke's case) in the past. But even role players have mostly trended up. We're deeper than we've ever been in the Shyatt era. Next year's starting 5 will consist of a steady PG with better shooting than we've had from that spot in years, a potential first-team all-MWC SG who might flirt with 50% from 3, the most overall talented wing player in recent Wyoming history, an athletic and experienced four who is a jump shot away from wrecking defenses, and a big, strong post player who will be able to hold his own against any of his counterparts in the league. We'll have at least three guys off the bench who will be able to contribute.

Also, don't overlook the attrition around the league. Boise St. is losing Drmic and Thompson. Fresno is losing Harris. CSU is losing a bunch of guys. Nevada is losing Coleman and Criswell. I'd say we're in a better position even with the loss of Adams from top to bottom than any of those teams after their seniors are gone, and it isn't like any of those teams were really that good this year. I expect New Mexico to improve substantially next year, and SDSU will continue to be the best team in the league, but I don't think you can definitively say any other team besides those two in the MWC will be head and shoulders better than Wyoming. We'll need some things to go our way, but a top-five finish is easily within our reach.
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It is strange to assume no improvement. But, as you've pointed out, most of Shyatt's players have progressed year to year. Take JMac for example, he went from 3 to 15 points a game. And is one of the better shooter in college basketball. The others haven't really been in the system long enough. And I'd say Barnes is the only one who hasn't made noticeable improvement from last year.
 
Cowduck said:
calpoke25 said:
I do like Cowducks post a lot but I wish I shared his optimism about us potentially being really good next year. Ragtime I don't think the shot clock or pace of play are really the important issues, the problem is simply the general lack of talent on the roster. Doesn't matter what the scheme or anything else is if you simply don't have the horses to keep up (no different than football). We just have a huge portion of the roster tied up in the classes of 13-14 that aren't very productive.
Click to expand...

I think you're underrating how much players have improved under Shyatt historically. The players we need the biggest leaps from happen to be our most talented players, and Cooke, Nance, and Adams are the players who improved the most from years 1-4 (3 in Cooke's case) in the past. But even role players have mostly trended up. We're deeper than we've ever been in the Shyatt era. Next year's starting 5 will consist of a steady PG with better shooting than we've had from that spot in years, a potential first-team all-MWC SG who might flirt with 50% from 3, the most overall talented wing player in recent Wyoming history, an athletic and experienced four who is a jump shot away from wrecking defenses, and a big, strong post player who will be able to hold his own against any of his counterparts in the league. We'll have at least three guys off the bench who will be able to contribute.

Also, don't overlook the attrition around the league. Boise St. is losing Drmic and Thompson. Fresno is losing Harris. CSU is losing a bunch of guys. Nevada is losing Coleman and Criswell. I'd say we're in a better position even with the loss of Adams from top to bottom than any of those teams after their seniors are gone, and it isn't like any of those teams were really that good this year. I expect New Mexico to improve substantially next year, and SDSU will continue to be the best team in the league, but I don't think you can definitively say any other team besides those two in the MWC will be head and shoulders better than Wyoming. We'll need some things to go our way, but a top-five finish is easily within our reach.
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You're forgetting though how good those guys were already as freshman/sophomores. Nance was a great rebounded from day one. Adams was an elite perimeter defender from day one and at the end of his sophomore season tore it up when Nance went down. Cooke made huge improvements but he always had elite athleticism, something all three of them had. They were much, much, much better as freshman/sophomores than our current sophomores. It was easy to see their future as All-MW potential. The only person on our roster with all MW talent is James and potentially Naughton. Mcmanemen will be our best player next year, and while I give him credit for how far he has come, he is still very limited athletically and w e will see how he does without defenses focusing on Josh. He should be a Ray Allen surrounding LeBron/Wade/Bosh core in an ideal basketball world. We have a team full of guys who profile as maybe 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th man options on a good team who will be asked to be primary options. I think if JJ puts in the work he can get there but next year will be asking a lot of him to be the primary option.
 
Cowduck said:
, an athletic and experienced four who is a jump shot away from wrecking defenses,
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Herndon also just isn't very athletic. We all know he lacks strength, but he also isn't a very bouncy athlete like Cooke for example. I agree with you his best case scenario is developing a lethal 3 point shot, but he's going to be playing 30 min a game at the 4, sometimes 5 spot. He has to rebound better, but I just don't think it's in his DNA He averaged I believe less than 5 rebounds per game playing 30 min a game this year. He lacks not only strength but bounce.
 
calpoke25 said:
Cowduck said:
calpoke25 said:
I do like Cowducks post a lot but I wish I shared his optimism about us potentially being really good next year. Ragtime I don't think the shot clock or pace of play are really the important issues, the problem is simply the general lack of talent on the roster. Doesn't matter what the scheme or anything else is if you simply don't have the horses to keep up (no different than football). We just have a huge portion of the roster tied up in the classes of 13-14 that aren't very productive.
Click to expand...

I think you're underrating how much players have improved under Shyatt historically. The players we need the biggest leaps from happen to be our most talented players, and Cooke, Nance, and Adams are the players who improved the most from years 1-4 (3 in Cooke's case) in the past. But even role players have mostly trended up. We're deeper than we've ever been in the Shyatt era. Next year's starting 5 will consist of a steady PG with better shooting than we've had from that spot in years, a potential first-team all-MWC SG who might flirt with 50% from 3, the most overall talented wing player in recent Wyoming history, an athletic and experienced four who is a jump shot away from wrecking defenses, and a big, strong post player who will be able to hold his own against any of his counterparts in the league. We'll have at least three guys off the bench who will be able to contribute.

Also, don't overlook the attrition around the league. Boise St. is losing Drmic and Thompson. Fresno is losing Harris. CSU is losing a bunch of guys. Nevada is losing Coleman and Criswell. I'd say we're in a better position even with the loss of Adams from top to bottom than any of those teams after their seniors are gone, and it isn't like any of those teams were really that good this year. I expect New Mexico to improve substantially next year, and SDSU will continue to be the best team in the league, but I don't think you can definitively say any other team besides those two in the MWC will be head and shoulders better than Wyoming. We'll need some things to go our way, but a top-five finish is easily within our reach.
Click to expand...

You're forgetting though how good those guys were already as freshman/sophomores. Nance was a great rebounded from day one. Adams was an elite perimeter defender from day one and at the end of his sophomore season tore it up when Nance went down. Cooke made huge improvements but he always had elite athleticism, something all three of them had. They were much, much, much better as freshman/sophomores than our current sophomores. It was easy to see their future as All-MW potential. The only person on our roster with all MW talent is James and potentially Naughton. Mcmanemen will be our best player next year, and while I give him credit for how far he has come, he is still very limited athletically and w e will see how he does without defenses focusing on Josh. He should be a Ray Allen surrounding LeBron/Wade/Bosh core in an ideal basketball world. We have a team full of guys who profile as maybe 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th man options on a good team who will be asked to be primary options. I think if JJ puts in the work he can get there but next year will be asking a lot of him to be the primary option.
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I don't think James has to carry the offensive load next year like Adams did this year, I just think he has to be the guy on the floor who can create offense on his own when we need it. The offense will be more balanced and even more ball movement-predicated next year. It will be 3-4 shooters spaced around one big man with lots of pick-and-roll and motion. As long as we have one creator like James or (hopefully) Conway on the floor we'll be able to generate open shots.
 
calpoke25 said:
Cowduck said:
, an athletic and experienced four who is a jump shot away from wrecking defenses,
Click to expand...

Herndon also just isn't very athletic. We all know he lacks strength, but he also isn't a very bouncy athlete like Cooke for example. I agree with you his best case scenario is developing a lethal 3 point shot, but he's going to be playing 30 min a game at the 4, sometimes 5 spot. He has to rebound better, but I just don't think it's in his DNA He averaged I believe less than 5 rebounds per game playing 30 min a game this year. He lacks not only strength but bounce.
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He's not going to jump out of the gym, no, but for a guy his size his first step is quick enough to drive past hard closeouts that he'll hopefully be inducing with his improved shooting. If he can do that and finish on dives to the rim after we've gotten penetration that's enough for me. He doesn't have to get up like Larry. As for rebounding, I've already said that our team's best version of itself has Herndon as a stretch 4 and Naughton/Barnes doing the dirty work underneath. I could see us going small in certain matchups with Herndon at the 5 and James or Dalton at the 4, but that should be highly situational because you're right, if we are relying on Herndon/Dalton to be the primary rebounder(s) we'll be in trouble.
 
How good James is going to be is up to him, but he has a pull-up jump shot from 15' and in that is as good as I have seen since Marcus Bailey.
 
Cowduck said:
He's not going to jump out of the gym, no, but for a guy his size his first step is quick enough to drive past hard closeouts that he'll hopefully be inducing with his improved shooting. If he can do that and finish on dives to the rim after we've gotten penetration that's enough for me. He doesn't have to get up like Larry. As for rebounding, I've already said that our team's best version of itself has Herndon as a stretch 4 and Naughton/Barnes doing the dirty work underneath. I could see us going small in certain matchups with Herndon at the 5 and James or Dalton at the 4, but that should be highly situational because you're right, if we are relying on Herndon/Dalton to be the primary rebounder(s) we'll be in trouble.
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Herndon can average 15-20 ppg next year but we're still just going to get crushed on the defensive side with him playing 30 min a game at the 4-5 position unless he finds a way to compete better on the defensive end. We could get by playing Herndon last year next to a couple of elite rebounders in Nance and Cooke for a few minutes. Naughton has potential to be a dominating true center, but he's also not a bouncy guy. I don't know exactly how you quantify "bounciness" but I think it's one of the most important parts of rebounding. That's why Josh Adams was our second leading rebounder. Moemke seems like he could have that bouncy quality. And Barnes, well he just isn't improving at all. In today's game I don't think a team really needs more than one true center and Naughton is already a much better player. It was painful to watch him start, then proceed to play 3 minutes a game. He looks like someone driving down the interstate at 45 as everyone else goes 75.
 
WYCowboy said:
How good James is going to be is up to him, but he has a pull-up jump shot from 15' and in that is as good as I have seen since Marcus Bailey.
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Agreed. Best mid-range game I have seen at UW since Marcus. James has all the tools as he also can hit the perimeter shot and has the athleticism to finish at the rim.
 
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