Bohl 2023….

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ragtimejoe1
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307bball wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:59 am

Teams from both eras:

In 2008:
Wyoming 5.4
Air Force 5.5
New Mexico 6.2
UNLV 6.5
San Diego State 8.2
Colorado State 8.6

In 2020:
New Mexico 10.6
Air Force 10.9
Wyoming 12.4
UNLV 12.9
San Diego State 16.9
Colorado State 26.6

There are a few observations here that surprise me....mostly I'm surprised by UNLV/SDSU having such a high budget back then. Maybe the dollars just don't go as far in those areas? Ultimately I still think differences in program investment of the magnitude listed above are a terrible way to rate programs. The eye-popping amount that CSU spends to get the results that have gotten so far is the other surprise.

I don't feel sorry at all for Glenn not beating the lower half of the conference when he was coach based on these numbers.

SDSU is getting some pretty good bang for thier buck nowadays....what was going on during Glenn's era for them? CSU was bottoming out from the Lubick era highs during Glenn's tenure and they still have been mediocre to bad since then...yet they spend tons. There is just so little correlation between program spending and investment to success. In general you can expect higher spending teams to have more success but it is not very informative for any specific program. If Glenn was a better coach...we would have had better success against that group of teams regardless of the program spending.
First, defaulting to a handful of teams is nonsense. Glenn had to play the big budget teams. You can't just omit them to fit your narrative. Secondly, I'll get to the record each year when I get time.

However, these numbers in combination with completion of IPF and HAPC show Bohl has had it better than Glenn ever did.

If level of investment listed above doesn't matter, why not reduce budget by 5 million or so? Shouldn't impact anything, right?
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:50 am
First, defaulting to a handful of teams is nonsense. Glenn had to play the big budget teams. You can't just omit them to fit your narrative. Secondly, I'll get to the record each year when I get time.
I'm really not trying to have a narrative here...why is it nonsense? There is a good reason for selecting a subset of teams that both coaches played against. Glenn sucked against the bottom of the conference. Are you saying that is excusable because the top three were so much better? (really top two)

Is it your contention that having to play TCU, Utah, and BYU every year depressed Glenn's record against the lesser teams?
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:50 am However, these numbers in combination with completion of IPF and HAPC show Bohl has had it better than Glenn ever did.

If level of investment listed above doesn't matter, why not reduce budget by 5 million or so? Shouldn't impact anything, right?
If IPF and HAPC is not in those numbers then I assume similar investments by other programs are also not in those numbers...For reference...IPF and HAPC is something like 55 million. CSU's new stadium alone is almost 5 times that number! SDSU is opening a new stadium that is even more expensive! I'm not following closely UNM, UNLV, and AFA investment but it would surprise me if they did not have similar projects.
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:50 am If level of investment listed above doesn't matter, why not reduce budget by 5 million or so? Shouldn't impact anything, right?
This is such a great question...Why not? Honestly not sure how to approach this. It's a lot of money that the state of Wyoming is on the hook for. Lots of people complain about it. I like having a football program but I can't deny that it is firmly entertainment.

To me, this is an open question. How much should we expect our record to change as a result of program investment? What is the mechanism of that change? If We had increased Glenn's budget 20%...does his coaching get better?

My opinion is that the mechanism by which higher spending teams get better results has to do with getting higher rated players to commit to play for them. An individual coaches skill is not impacted at all by program investment. Maybe if you have tons and tons of money you can hire analytics firms and more scouting ... and that is not nothing but I think the returns on that diminish pretty quickly. Big money and flashy facilities helps in recruiting....get better guys and the coaching looks pretty amazing.

This gets to other questions...How much would Wyoming have to increase spending to meaningfully impact the caliber of player that commits? I bet it's a lot. Football requires a lot of bodies, the 'mean' football player at Wyoming is not as good as the 'mean' football player at Nebraska...or Auburn....that's a function of the amount of resources those schools put out there. If we double expenditure (not going to happen), does that make our recruits way better than every other MWC school? I think it would help but I don't think program investment is what is holding Wyoming back.
307bball
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307bball wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:35 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:50 am
First, defaulting to a handful of teams is nonsense. Glenn had to play the big budget teams. You can't just omit them to fit your narrative. Secondly, I'll get to the record each year when I get time.
I'm really not trying to have a narrative here...why is it nonsense? There is a good reason for selecting a subset of teams that both coaches played against. Glenn sucked against the bottom of the conference. Are you saying that is excusable because the top three were so much better? (really top two)

Is it your contention that having to play TCU, Utah, and BYU every year depressed Glenn's record against the lesser teams?
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:50 am However, these numbers in combination with completion of IPF and HAPC show Bohl has had it better than Glenn ever did.

If level of investment listed above doesn't matter, why not reduce budget by 5 million or so? Shouldn't impact anything, right?
If IPF and HAPC is not in those numbers then I assume similar investments by other programs are also not in those numbers...For reference...IPF and HAPC is something like 55 million. CSU's new stadium alone is almost 5 times that number! SDSU is opening a new stadium that is even more expensive! I'm not following closely UNM, UNLV, and AFA investment but it would surprise me if they did not have similar projects.
More on this...Looks like UNM is opening a facility very much like the HAPC this summer...UNLV built the Ferttita football complex a couple years ago, I don't think anybody in the conference is standing still on facility investment.
ragtimejoe1
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These numbers back up the claim that Bohl has it better than Glenn in terms of budget and resources. Other teams might be adding resources but they didn't have them while Bohl did.

Glenn was bottom of the barrel in his conference for everything. Bohl is upper end for salaries and facilities and middle for budget in his conference. The within conference comparison is much better than plucking out a few teams.

I'll work on the individual team strength within season which is also a better metric than some overall average. UNM, SDSU, AF, and CSU all had bowl-eligible teams during Glenn's era. You act like these teams were poop every year and that's not the case except for unlv.

That's a different aspect of the debate. For this, Glenn clearly had a disadvantage in terms of resources and facilities compared to HIS conference peers. Bohl is in much better shape in this regard relative to HIS peers.

The reason we don't go budget is because Burman knows we'll be bottom of the barrel. Bohl couldn't do what Glenn was asked to do either.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:19 pm These numbers back up the claim that Bohl has it better than Glenn in terms of budget and resources. Other teams might be adding resources but they didn't have them while Bohl did.

Glenn was bottom of the barrel in his conference for everything. Bohl is upper end for salaries and facilities and middle for budget in his conference. The within conference comparison is much better than plucking out a few teams.
I'm not making the claim that Bohl has less financial support than Joe Glenn did. Your claim that Wyoming is at the upper end of the conference in facilities is some sunshine pumping nonsense though. I love me some War memorial but it is not a top half MWC facility. Charming?..Nostalgic? of couse...but it does not move the needle otherwise. The HAPC and the IPF are nice but we are not blowing anybody away with them.
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:19 pm I'll work on the individual team strength within season which is also a better metric than some overall average. UNM, SDSU, AF, and CSU all had bowl-eligible teams during Glenn's era. You act like these teams were [#]sh#t every year and that's not the case except for unlv.

That's a different aspect of the debate. For this, Glenn clearly had a disadvantage in terms of resources and facilities compared to HIS conference peers. Bohl is in much better shape in this regard relative to HIS peers.

The reason we don't go budget is because Burman knows we'll be bottom of the barrel. Bohl couldn't do what Glenn was asked to do either.
Waste your time if you want I guess....I don't know how many ways I can say that in general, Glenn played tougher teams than Bohl does. It's difficult to compare since the conference changed so drastically but the P5 OOC caliber of teams that both played is one category that you can look at...Bohl played a slightly higher rated slate than Glenn did. If you compare teams that both coaches played in conference, that group was slightly higher rated than they are now. Obviously this is looking at it over some years. I've seen the numbers...If I've made a mistake...point it out, otherwise the analysis has been done.

If you are using year end sagarin rankings to determine how good a team is in any given year, it's obvious that, overall Glenn played more top 60 programs than Bohl does. Both coaches lose to them all the time. If you suck against teams outside the top 60...that is what gets you fired. That is what Glenn's program settled into by the end. The difference is that Bohl's program started out in that place and got better. It seems like it's heading back there but I suppose there is a chance he pulls it out and maintains some sort of frustrating mediocrity.

I'm hearing you say that they are no different, in your opinion, for all the reasons that you have laid out. Fantastic, bully for you. I think Bohl is a better coach than Glenn for the reasons I have laid out. I value being competitive in the MWC and Glenn wasn't. I don't care that it was a tougher conference....I'm not asking him to dominate the Utah's or TCU's of his era...I'm asking him to have a winning record against the bottom of the MWC. Am I being unreasonable? I think not.

Whoever pointed out that the difference between Bohl and Glenn is terribly un-inspiring was spot on. I agree with that and I still think Bohl is better.

What is it that you hate so much about Bohl...is it the fact that he presides over a much richer program with more fans at games despite mediocre results? Something about this argument feels personal to me. Let it out....you'll feel better.
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:19 pm You act like these teams were [#]sh#t every year and that's not the case except for unlv.
And please cut the crap with telling me what I'm saying. This is some high level straw man nonsense. I'm calling those teams the bottom half of that era's MWC...If we were any good we would have had more success against them than we did.
ragtimejoe1
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I don't hate Bohl, I'm just saying there's not a nickel's worth of difference between him and Glenn especially considering Bohl has more support and a weaker conference.

Bohl couldn't do what Glenn was asked to do.... keep pace with the fewest resources in conference.

BTW, Bohl has won 4 conference games in past 2 years. Absolutely killing it!
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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McPeachy
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I love you both (307bball and ragtimejoe1) as Wyoming fans, and love your passion, and info for the board.

That said, maybe you should take your chat to a PM situation / personal conversation? Seems there is a lot of :deadhorse1: going on.
Dear Karma,

I have a list of people you missed...
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:20 pm I don't hate Bohl, I'm just saying there's not a nickel's worth of difference between him and Glenn especially considering Bohl has more support and a weaker conference.
Great opinion...completely subjective though. More support?...yeah some....not blowing anybody's doors off now and while we were last back then...we were not getting our doors blown off. Weaker conference? Yeah...at the top...the rest? The rest was slightly better if you go by year end Sagarin but we are talking a very fine distinction.
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:20 pm Bohl couldn't do what Glenn was asked to do.... keep pace with the fewest resources in conference.
Great opinion...and I disagree....I think Bohl would have matched up with the bottom half MWC of Glenns era about the same as he does now.
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:20 pm BTW, Bohl has won 4 conference games in past 2 years. Absolutely killing it!
No arguments from me here...I see the trend and am predicting it gets worse.
307bball
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McPeachy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:40 pm I love you both (307bball and ragtimejoe1) as Wyoming fans, and love your passion, and info for the board.

That said, maybe you should take your chat to a PM situation / personal conversation? Seems there is a lot of :deadhorse1: going on.
You don't enjoy us mis-characterizing each other's arguments? Are you not entertained? :lol:

srsly...agree that it's a bit stale at this point.
ragtimejoe1
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McPeachy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:40 pm I love you both (307bball and ragtimejoe1) as Wyoming fans, and love your passion, and info for the board.

That said, maybe you should take your chat to a PM situation / personal conversation? Seems there is a lot of :deadhorse1: going on.
Haha, fair enough. I'll save the remaining evaluation for season's end where we likely will be grumbling again.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
wypoke
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I am and old man and a WYO alum, consequently I tend to measure Bohl's performance through an old man's eyes.
I always respected the manner in which Woody Hayes (Ohio State) approached the game of football. Yes, he had his flaws, but he loved Ohio State and actually taught some history classes there as well as personally tutoring some of his own players.
He loved his players and constantly spoke about the WILL TO WIN, SACRIFICE and the PREPARATION TO WIN.
Reviewing some of Coach Hayes' quotes I wonder how Craig Bohl measures up.

1. "You don't get hurt running straight ahead...three yards and a cloud of dust offense. I will pound you and pound you until you quit." Craig Bohl apparently agrees with this approach.

2. "I am not very smart, but I recognize that I am not very smart." Can you imagine Craig Bohl admitting this? I don't think his arrogance would allow it.

3. "Even the best teams, without a SOUND plan, can't score." Two years ago, Bohl said he was re-engineering the offense to make it more effective. Last year with experienced quarterbacks and receivers Bohl planned an improved passing attack. How would you rate Bohl's last two plans?

4. "The big mistakes in football are the fumble, the interception, the penalty, the badly called play and most of these originate with the quarterback. Find a mistake proof quarterback and you have the game won." Bohl oversees the recruitment, the development, the preparation and the ranking of our quarterbacks. Has the quality of our quartebacks given you confidence in Bohl's ability?

5. "THE MOST MEANINGFUL STATISTIC IS THE NUMBER OF GAMES WON".
What would Woody Hayes think of Bohl's statistical performance?

Just some food for thought from an old man.
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WYO1016
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I'm on the bandwagon. Fire Bohl. Do it tomorrow.
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LanderPoke
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WYO1016 wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:45 pm I'm on the bandwagon. Fire Bohl. Do it tomorrow.
Yeah I’m done with him. It’s not fun watching this offense anymore
WyomingAgJ
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LanderPoke wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:54 pm
WYO1016 wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:45 pm I'm on the bandwagon. Fire Bohl. Do it tomorrow.
Yeah I’m done with him. It’s not fun watching this offense anymore
The question does the AD actually make the change this year or are we stuck still another year after this?
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LanderPoke
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WyomingAgJ wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:59 pm
LanderPoke wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:54 pm
WYO1016 wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:45 pm I'm on the bandwagon. Fire Bohl. Do it tomorrow.
Yeah I’m done with him. It’s not fun watching this offense anymore
The question does the AD actually make the change this year or are we stuck still another year after this?
He sucks soooo bad and got so lucky Josh fell into his lap
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