How "screwed" should we really feel?

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307bball
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How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by 307bball »

My question stems from thinking about the defensive staff getting poached the last two years as well as the general state of good Wyoming coaches leaving the program for more pay/prestige at other schools.

Here is a quote from another thread:
CowboyNV wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:17 pm
Michigan State has screwed Wyoming over before. Most, if not all of you guys are too young to remember Bob Devaney, but he left Wyoming for Nebraska in 1962. He was Nebraska's 4th choice, but the other 3 guys they offered the job to turned them down, the last to do so was the coach at Michigan State. He's the asswipe who recommended Devaney for the job and the rest is history. He was 35-10-5 at Wyoming, and in his 10 years at Nebraska he was 101-20-2 with a national championship. He left coaching to become the AD at Nebraska. So, thanks to Michigan State, we lost probably the best coach we ever had. Like the others have said, anything is possible, but I have to believe Bohl would be way way down the list.
If I'm able to set aside my pro-Wyoming bias....Is it really getting screwed when you have coaches leaving for greener pastures elsewhere? Why is somebody an "asswipe" for recomending Devaney for a coaching position? Is it not on the University to make the financial commitment necassary to keep top flight coaches around?

Don't get me wrong ... it sucks to lose good coaches all the time. Or good players to the pros before their eligibility is up. In both cases though...That is not the way business is done in college sports. Coaches are only as loyal as their options....turns out so are entire programs. Do you think any MW member would not step on the corpses of the other programs if they were getting a P5 conference invite out of it? If you want to be big time...then you better start acting big time, starting with knocking off the hand-wringing about losing coaches or conference members. If the grass is greener on the other side ... then it's time to turn on the sprinklers.

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by American Horse »

307bball wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:18 am
My question stems from thinking about the defensive staff getting poached the last two years as well as the general state of good Wyoming coaches leaving the program for more pay/prestige at other schools.

Here is a quote from another thread:
CowboyNV wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:17 pm
Michigan State has screwed Wyoming over before. Most, if not all of you guys are too young to remember Bob Devaney, but he left Wyoming for Nebraska in 1962. He was Nebraska's 4th choice, but the other 3 guys they offered the job to turned them down, the last to do so was the coach at Michigan State. He's the asswipe who recommended Devaney for the job and the rest is history. He was 35-10-5 at Wyoming, and in his 10 years at Nebraska he was 101-20-2 with a national championship. He left coaching to become the AD at Nebraska. So, thanks to Michigan State, we lost probably the best coach we ever had. Like the others have said, anything is possible, but I have to believe Bohl would be way way down the list.
If I'm able to set aside my pro-Wyoming bias....Is it really getting screwed when you have coaches leaving for greener pastures elsewhere? Why is somebody an "asswipe" for recomending Devaney for a coaching position? Is it not on the University to make the financial commitment necassary to keep top flight coaches around?

Don't get me wrong ... it sucks to lose good coaches all the time. Or good players to the pros before their eligibility is up. In both cases though...That is not the way business is done in college sports. Coaches are only as loyal as their options....turns out so are entire programs. Do you think any MW member would not step on the corpses of the other programs if they were getting a P5 conference invite out of it? If you want to be big time...then you better start acting big time, starting with knocking off the hand-wringing about losing coaches or conference members. If the grass is greener on the other side ... then it's time to turn on the sprinklers.
I don't like to agree to this... but I must How many of us have recommended someone for a job? Does that make us an "asswipe?" If we are offered a job with more prestige and more money, won't nearly all of us take it? If WY truly wants to be a big dawg and do the poaching of coaches, they need to walk that walk.

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by OrediggerPoke »

If our coaches weren't leaving for greener pastures than that would tell you that we have a bad program. Our coaches are in demand elsewhere for big money because we have a good program.

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by WestWYOPoke »

It's hard for most of us to fathom the world that college coaches live in. For some, they may only get 1 shot at the FBS level (obviously many never make it that far), so the mindset has to be 'me-first'. If I had a job with absolutely zero job security, I would A) hope to make a lot of money annually since it might be one-and-done, and B) jump on the chance to make more when the opportunity arises.

The only coaches that can afford (literally afford) the "luxury" of allegiance are established winners...and even then, the cost of allegiance is getting higher by the year (I.E. Les Miles at LSU).
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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by Expat_Poke »

Was wondering to post this here or in the MSU/CU related thread. Having good coaches poached is the nature of college football. Mid to low level "P5" teams face it with their head coaches as well, and even sometimes though more rarely a top tier program will get a head coach head hunted by other top tier college or NFL options. Also even your Alabama's have to deal with constantly having their good coordinators continually poached.

Right now I will say that the Dantonio move seems on the surface kind of a jerk move. Granted we don't know all the comings and goings in his personal life and maybe something suddenly came up that really demanded he step away when he did. Otherwise his timing really hoses two programs that have to scramble. I would say as for feeling "screwed" right now MSU and CU have more reason than us with a caveat.

I heard, and it is simply what I heard so may or may not be true, that Dickert gave Bohl a firm 2 year commitment. If that is the case my issue is less him going to greener pastures and more against him going back on his word. Commitments are supposed to mean something and shouldn't be taken lightly. The point of a commitment is considering you may get better opportunities offered, but you stick to your word (generally to someone that has given you a previous opportunity at risk to themselves). If that isn't the case, and no commitment was given, I really don't have any issue.
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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by WYO1016 »

Expat_Poke wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:42 am
Was wondering to post this here or in the MSU/CU related thread. Having good coaches poached is the nature of college football. Mid to low level "P5" teams face it with their head coaches as well, and even sometimes though more rarely a top tier program will get a head coach head hunted by other top tier college or NFL options. Also even your Alabama's have to deal with constantly having their good coordinators continually poached.

Right now I will say that the Dantonio move seems on the surface kind of a jerk move. Granted we don't know all the comings and goings in his personal life and maybe something suddenly came up that really demanded he step away when he did. Otherwise his timing really hoses two programs that have to scramble. I would say as for feeling "screwed" right now MSU and CU have more reason than us with a caveat.

I heard, and it is simply what I heard so may or may not be true, that Dickert gave Bohl a firm 2 year commitment. If that is the case my issue is less him going to greener pastures and more against him going back on his word. Commitments are supposed to mean something and shouldn't be taken lightly. The point of a commitment is considering you may get better opportunities offered, but you stick to your word (generally to someone that has given you a previous opportunity at risk to themselves). If that isn't the case, and no commitment was given, I really don't have any issue.
This one is pretty easy to figure out. He was ready to retire at the end of the season, but had this nice little bonus in his contract:
Dantonio's deal remains a rollover contract through 2020, but he received a $264,000 increase in base salary to $2.26 million. His contingent annual bonus jumped from $286,000 to $700,000 with a one-time $4.3 million contingent annual bonus if he remains in his post through Jan. 15, 2020.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/261 ... s-reaction
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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by Expat_Poke »

WYO1016 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:38 am
Expat_Poke wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:42 am
Was wondering to post this here or in the MSU/CU related thread. Having good coaches poached is the nature of college football. Mid to low level "P5" teams face it with their head coaches as well, and even sometimes though more rarely a top tier program will get a head coach head hunted by other top tier college or NFL options. Also even your Alabama's have to deal with constantly having their good coordinators continually poached.

Right now I will say that the Dantonio move seems on the surface kind of a jerk move. Granted we don't know all the comings and goings in his personal life and maybe something suddenly came up that really demanded he step away when he did. Otherwise his timing really hoses two programs that have to scramble. I would say as for feeling "screwed" right now MSU and CU have more reason than us with a caveat.

I heard, and it is simply what I heard so may or may not be true, that Dickert gave Bohl a firm 2 year commitment. If that is the case my issue is less him going to greener pastures and more against him going back on his word. Commitments are supposed to mean something and shouldn't be taken lightly. The point of a commitment is considering you may get better opportunities offered, but you stick to your word (generally to someone that has given you a previous opportunity at risk to themselves). If that isn't the case, and no commitment was given, I really don't have any issue.
This one is pretty easy to figure out. He was ready to retire at the end of the season, but had this nice little bonus in his contract:
Dantonio's deal remains a rollover contract through 2020, but he received a $264,000 increase in base salary to $2.26 million. His contingent annual bonus jumped from $286,000 to $700,000 with a one-time $4.3 million contingent annual bonus if he remains in his post through Jan. 15, 2020.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/261 ... s-reaction
If that is why he waited that long, that is a jerk move. I am speculating that Michigan State put that date in there thinking hey there is no way a coach would leave that late...

A lot of things in life are worth more than mammon
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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by TSpoke »

Expat_Poke wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:53 am
WYO1016 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:38 am
Expat_Poke wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:42 am
Was wondering to post this here or in the MSU/CU related thread. Having good coaches poached is the nature of college football. Mid to low level "P5" teams face it with their head coaches as well, and even sometimes though more rarely a top tier program will get a head coach head hunted by other top tier college or NFL options. Also even your Alabama's have to deal with constantly having their good coordinators continually poached.

Right now I will say that the Dantonio move seems on the surface kind of a jerk move. Granted we don't know all the comings and goings in his personal life and maybe something suddenly came up that really demanded he step away when he did. Otherwise his timing really hoses two programs that have to scramble. I would say as for feeling "screwed" right now MSU and CU have more reason than us with a caveat.

I heard, and it is simply what I heard so may or may not be true, that Dickert gave Bohl a firm 2 year commitment. If that is the case my issue is less him going to greener pastures and more against him going back on his word. Commitments are supposed to mean something and shouldn't be taken lightly. The point of a commitment is considering you may get better opportunities offered, but you stick to your word (generally to someone that has given you a previous opportunity at risk to themselves). If that isn't the case, and no commitment was given, I really don't have any issue.
This one is pretty easy to figure out. He was ready to retire at the end of the season, but had this nice little bonus in his contract:
Dantonio's deal remains a rollover contract through 2020, but he received a $264,000 increase in base salary to $2.26 million. His contingent annual bonus jumped from $286,000 to $700,000 with a one-time $4.3 million contingent annual bonus if he remains in his post through Jan. 15, 2020.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/261 ... s-reaction
If that is why he waited that long, that is a jerk move. I am speculating that Michigan State put that date in there thinking hey there is no way a coach would leave that late...

A lot of things in life are worth more than mammon
I don't think it was just that. If that was all it was he could have worked something out with the university and still got his bonus and put the university in a better position to hire a new coach. Not sure what else was going on but I think if it was only that bonus they would have figured something else out.

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by seattlecowboy »

TSpoke wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:01 am
Expat_Poke wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:53 am
WYO1016 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:38 am
Expat_Poke wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:42 am
Was wondering to post this here or in the MSU/CU related thread. Having good coaches poached is the nature of college football. Mid to low level "P5" teams face it with their head coaches as well, and even sometimes though more rarely a top tier program will get a head coach head hunted by other top tier college or NFL options. Also even your Alabama's have to deal with constantly having their good coordinators continually poached.

Right now I will say that the Dantonio move seems on the surface kind of a jerk move. Granted we don't know all the comings and goings in his personal life and maybe something suddenly came up that really demanded he step away when he did. Otherwise his timing really hoses two programs that have to scramble. I would say as for feeling "screwed" right now MSU and CU have more reason than us with a caveat.

I heard, and it is simply what I heard so may or may not be true, that Dickert gave Bohl a firm 2 year commitment. If that is the case my issue is less him going to greener pastures and more against him going back on his word. Commitments are supposed to mean something and shouldn't be taken lightly. The point of a commitment is considering you may get better opportunities offered, but you stick to your word (generally to someone that has given you a previous opportunity at risk to themselves). If that isn't the case, and no commitment was given, I really don't have any issue.
This one is pretty easy to figure out. He was ready to retire at the end of the season, but had this nice little bonus in his contract:
Dantonio's deal remains a rollover contract through 2020, but he received a $264,000 increase in base salary to $2.26 million. His contingent annual bonus jumped from $286,000 to $700,000 with a one-time $4.3 million contingent annual bonus if he remains in his post through Jan. 15, 2020.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/261 ... s-reaction
If that is why he waited that long, that is a jerk move. I am speculating that Michigan State put that date in there thinking hey there is no way a coach would leave that late...

A lot of things in life are worth more than mammon
I don't think it was just that. If that was all it was he could have worked something out with the university and still got his bonus and put the university in a better position to hire a new coach. Not sure what else was going on but I think if it was only that bonus they would have figured something else out.

That was only one part of it. Dantonio said he was planning on coaching them this next season (2020) but then he found out the administrators had hired a search firm for his replacement without telling him and he was supposed to be able to pick his replacement. So that is when he got upset and decided to resign.
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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by stymeman »

OrediggerPoke wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:46 pm
If our coaches weren't leaving for greener pastures than that would tell you that we have a bad program. Our coaches are in demand elsewhere for big money because we have a good program.
Good quote but we will always be a stepping stone University, we don't have the resources to compete with the Power 5. If we did could you imagine the ticket prices(which nobody likes now) would be like??? It's just the nature of where we live and whom we love to support, enjoy the ebbs and flows as they go, anymore. Poaching of our coaches will be a forever thing

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by 307bball »

stymeman wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:43 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:46 pm
If our coaches weren't leaving for greener pastures than that would tell you that we have a bad program. Our coaches are in demand elsewhere for big money because we have a good program.
Good quote but we will always be a stepping stone University, we don't have the resources to compete with the Power 5. If we did could you imagine the ticket prices(which nobody likes now) would be like??? It's just the nature of where we live and whom we love to support, enjoy the ebbs and flows as they go, anymore. Poaching of our coaches will be a forever thing
I think we all agree on this to some extent....but this opens up another problematic line of thought. If there is a threshold of success, beyond which a Wyoming coach gets "poached", how realistic is it, as fans, to expect excellence? I know people point to Boise State as the model but that program is a bit unicorn-ish. I mean, if you get a bunch of extra money each year compared to the rest of your conference you can afford to protect your coaches a bit. If the Wyoming football program continues to rise to a certain level and get it's head (or coordinator) chopped off by a bigger program only to start over again...what is the realistic ceiling in that scenario?

I love me some Wyoming football but ever since the conference re-alignment crap I get really down about the difficulties of competing for non-powerhouse schools.

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by WyoBrandX »

Its a long shot, but one way they could try to fight some of the attrition is to find some Wyoming guys that can be developed into great coaches. Maybe find some of the Wyoming players who don't go off the NFL, get them into GA coaching, and promote within when they master the positions.

When Bohl retires, put him on retainer as a consultant for the head coaching position. He can draw a salary, help eval talent, but not deal with the media and the day to day stuff.

Might work...

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by J-Rod »

This is just the life of a G5 program. At program's like Boise State, holding onto a coordinator for 3 seasons means either 1) they got lucky af this time around or 2) this coordinator hasn't been convincing in this role.

The financial gap in this sport is getting ridiculous. When it comes to bolting for the P5, Bohl will likely be an exception due to his age, but $$$ talks. Nick Rolovich talked Sh#t for years at Hawaii about recruits that commit to programs in cold weather regions, only to leave for College Football: Siberia the moment $3 million/yr was offered. It's easy to play when the loyalty argument when it's not you declining a major raise.

Enjoy and appreciate the Bohl era. It's only going to get better from here, but when Bohl hangs up his headset...Wyoming will join the fray of teams like Memphis, Hawaii, App State who will be staring at the possibility of losing their coach the moment success arrives every single time.

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by Expat_Poke »

J-Rod wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:27 am
This is just the life of a G5 program. At program's like Boise State, holding onto a coordinator for 3 seasons means either 1) they got lucky af this time around or 2) this coordinator hasn't been convincing in this role.

The financial gap in this sport is getting ridiculous. When it comes to bolting for the P5, Bohl will likely be an exception due to his age, but $$$ talks. Nick Rolovich talked Sh#t for years at Hawaii about recruits that commit to programs in cold weather regions, only to leave for College Football: Siberia the moment $3 million/yr was offered. It's easy to play when the loyalty argument when it's not you declining a major raise.

Enjoy and appreciate the Bohl era. It's only going to get better from here, but when Bohl hangs up his headset...Wyoming will join the fray of teams like Memphis, Hawaii, App State who will be staring at the possibility of losing their coach the moment success arrives every single time.
My argument isn't so much loyalty, as it is commitment and honor. I understand a coach wanting to move up for the extra challenge, accomplishment, fame, money, etc. I do not begrudge someone wanting to take a promotion. My issue is when one gives a commitment (and this cuts both ways for schools and coaches, employer and employee) and then reneges on that commitment. It isn't about loyalty to a program so much as it is about being a man of your word. If you are going to bolt at the first next best offer, don't lie and tell the person in front of you that you are committed to them. I have declined job opportunities because I have given my word. In my case each time I advanced within the company I was with, and they have treated me well. It is a two way street, and me lying about my level of commitment is not how I want to act. :twocents:

As for Wyoming and coaches, yeah as tough as it may be, we want to be in a position where our coaches are getting poached given our current place in the college football world. Will be interesting to see if any of these proposed bills in congress limiting coach salaries advance. (Not saying I am personally for or against, haven't given it enough thought)
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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by ragtimejoe1 »

OrediggerPoke wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:46 pm
If our coaches weren't leaving for greener pastures than that would tell you that we have a bad program. Our coaches are in demand elsewhere for big money because we have a good program.
Agreed. Makes you wonder, though, why we lose DCs but not OC? Weird. Using your quoted theory and applying it to offense and defense makes some sense perhaps.
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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by 307bball »

ragtimejoe1 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:32 am
OrediggerPoke wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:46 pm
If our coaches weren't leaving for greener pastures than that would tell you that we have a bad program. Our coaches are in demand elsewhere for big money because we have a good program.
Agreed. Makes you wonder, though, why we lose DCs but not OC? Weird. Using your quoted theory and applying it to offense and defense makes some sense perhaps.
...Is anybody Wondering this?

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by 307bball »

Expat_Poke wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:11 am
J-Rod wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:27 am
This is just the life of a G5 program. At program's like Boise State, holding onto a coordinator for 3 seasons means either 1) they got lucky af this time around or 2) this coordinator hasn't been convincing in this role.

The financial gap in this sport is getting ridiculous. When it comes to bolting for the P5, Bohl will likely be an exception due to his age, but $$$ talks. Nick Rolovich talked Sh#t for years at Hawaii about recruits that commit to programs in cold weather regions, only to leave for College Football: Siberia the moment $3 million/yr was offered. It's easy to play when the loyalty argument when it's not you declining a major raise.

Enjoy and appreciate the Bohl era. It's only going to get better from here, but when Bohl hangs up his headset...Wyoming will join the fray of teams like Memphis, Hawaii, App State who will be staring at the possibility of losing their coach the moment success arrives every single time.
My argument isn't so much loyalty, as it is commitment and honor. I understand a coach wanting to move up for the extra challenge, accomplishment, fame, money, etc. I do not begrudge someone wanting to take a promotion. My issue is when one gives a commitment (and this cuts both ways for schools and coaches, employer and employee) and then reneges on that commitment. It isn't about loyalty to a program so much as it is about being a man of your word. If you are going to bolt at the first next best offer, don't lie and tell the person in front of you that you are committed to them. I have declined job opportunities because I have given my word. In my case each time I advanced within the company I was with, and they have treated me well. It is a two way street, and me lying about my level of commitment is not how I want to act. :twocents:

As for Wyoming and coaches, yeah as tough as it may be, we want to be in a position where our coaches are getting poached given our current place in the college football world. Will be interesting to see if any of these proposed bills in congress limiting coach salaries advance. (Not saying I am personally for or against, haven't given it enough thought)
I think the days of that type of "honor" are long gone in athletics. It has been gone in the pros for some time. I'm not saying it's good or bad ... it just is the state of play. The comment about the financial gap widening hits home to me. I think it can be argued that at a certain point it is no longer "honorable" to pass up potentially generational money because you made a handshake commitment.

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by WyoBrandX »

Find Wyoming ppl. Train 'em. They will stay around for ever.

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by OrediggerPoke »

WyoBrandX wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:38 pm
Find Wyoming ppl. Train 'em. They will stay around for ever.
Yea - because Wyoming people are automatically immune to making career advancement choices based on commitment to a certain state or program. Just ask Mike Leach.

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Re: How "screwed" should we really feel?

Post by 307bball »

OrediggerPoke wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:43 am
WyoBrandX wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:38 pm
Find Wyoming ppl. Train 'em. They will stay around for ever.
Yea - because Wyoming people are automatically immune to making career advancement choices based on commitment to a certain state or program. Just ask Mike Leach.
mmm I think the Wyoming people staying argument is predicated on a more level pay scale....Want to teach in Alabama for a 20% pay increase?...maybe..but if you like where you are you may not. What if the increase was double...or triple. Then things get interesting.

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