Bohl 2023….

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307bball
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LawPoke wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:09 pm
Cornpoke wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 1:13 pm
LawPoke wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:16 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:55 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:06 pm
If Bohl is successful next year and takes this young and inexperienced team to a bowl game, then I will be really impressed.
Meh, our "most experienced team in ncaa football" was largely a dud or mediocre at best against arguably the weakest schedule in cfb; the youth excuse is gone. He or fans can't play that card. Year 1 and maybe 2? Sure. Now? No way in hell.

He better be successful in a mediocre to weak conference after having nearly a decade to build the program in his image. Nope. Bohl is out of excuses.
He is out of excuses. He lost me last season - or maybe the year before. I was walking across the parking lot. We were tailgating early. Bohl was walking from his office over to the team hotel. I had visited with him numerous times before, including introducing him to a decent recruit that ended up at CU. I wished him good luck and gave him a "Go Pokes!" and he just walked past me. Granted he likely had a lot on his mind, but he could have said something. He just walked past - stone-faced.
Many players and coaches get in a "zone" before the game. I know I did as kicker, just to help block everything out. There are plenty of reasons not to like Bohl but that probably shouldn't be one of them.
Maybe. If it was the only time he was cold and prickly, I'd say you were right. Based on other experience, I think he is conceited and has an ego that are off-putting. Pair that experience with the fact that I think he is driving our football program into the ground and I can't give him the benefit of any doubt and think his arrogance is wholly unearned.

On the other hand, I am fairly certain that Linder has a big ego too. But he wins and is adaptable to address and implement change if such is required to help him win. He is arrogant, but he's earned the leeway to be arrogant because he backs it up.

In either case, I would caution that Wyoming is different. Our politics are very, very personal. You can't afford to be a jerk and expect to maintain loyalty. You can't afford many instances where you are in a zone and don't acknowledge others' mere existence. This is not hard. A simple head nod and smile, "Thank you" or "Go Pokes" is not hard. Again, if it was the first time, I would concede the point. The reality is that he is an arrogant, cocksure, pompous guy that gets by with a tough guy vocabulary and doesn't back it up on the scoreboard. He is needlessly defiant and stubborn. And it all irks the hell out of me.
I think you just described every college coach, basketball or football, that is at an FBS program. Think about it...your talking what...300 people? Those guys, even the ones that flame out have risen to where they are due to some pretty fringe personality traits. If you find yourself running a college football program at the FBS level...you probably have had amazing success everywhere else in your career. You have gotten where you are in a hyper-competitive landscape that requires a level of irrational confidence that almost nobody has.

My opinion...the difference is in the results. For example...take a winning a-hole coach and compare to a losing a-hole coach...both are a-holes, but the winning coach is a "character" who is "pushing the envelope" while the losing coach is...well...you said it.."needlessly defiant and stubborn.

The dirty little secret...according to my completely anecdotal first and second hand experiences with college coaches...is that they are all a-holes.

The problem with an unpopular coach is always due to lack of victories. Barring some sort of criminality, winning will give you complete immunity from personality critique.
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WestWYOPoke
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307bball wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:35 pm
The dirty little secret...according to my completely anecdotal first and second hand experiences with college coaches...is that they are all a-holes.

The problem with an unpopular coach is always due to lack of victories. Barring some sort of criminality, winning will give you complete immunity from personality critique.
As far as head coaches... can confirm, there are a ton of assholes. Assistants aren't as bad, maybe because of less stress, maybe because they have to answer to the head guy and can't let their 'inner asshole' out.
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WestWYOPoke wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:06 pm
307bball wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:35 pm
The dirty little secret...according to my completely anecdotal first and second hand experiences with college coaches...is that they are all a-holes.

The problem with an unpopular coach is always due to lack of victories. Barring some sort of criminality, winning will give you complete immunity from personality critique.
As far as head coaches... can confirm, there are a ton of assholes. Assistants aren't as bad, maybe because of less stress, maybe because they have to answer to the head guy and can't let their 'inner asshole' out.
Assistants become head coaches, so are they a-holes or do they become a-holes?

As for the person that said “he’s driving our program into the ground”, this is quite laughable. Where have you been for the last 23 years or so? Maybe the next 2 years are going to be the nail, who knows. Bohl has a knack to be consistently mediocre. He’s overachieved when expectations were low and underachieved when they were high. The defense has been consistently good and I think with the run game, we can win a championship if we could find a qb. We almost won it with crappy defense. M
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Joe Glenn = The Unicorn of Football Coaches

Can we all agree?! Too bad he wasn't afforded the same Sh#t that Dickface and 'ol Bohly were / are, he would likely still be in Laramie. Maybe not coaching...but...
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McPeachy wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:31 am Joe Glenn = The Unicorn of Football Coaches

Can we all agree?! Too bad he wasn't afforded the same Sh#t that Dickface and 'ol Bohly were / are, he would likely still be in Laramie. Maybe not coaching...but...
Joe finished with an overall record of 30-41 (.42) and a conference record of 15-31 (.33).
Bohl has an overall record of 45-50 (.47) and a conference record of 27-35 (.43).

Wyoming pays Bohl approximately $1,500,000 per year to get in essence 10% more conference wins per year than Joe. That equates to one more conference win per year for a boatload more money than Joe cost us . If Joe had the blind support that Bohl has received, plus better facilities, and more money for assistants, etc., I would posit he would be just as successful as #notevenaverage Craig Bohl. :twocents:
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Joe Glenn was a unicorn among football coaches not in his successes as a coach, but as a personable human. That dude remembered my name and hometown 7 months after having only ONE very brief conversation with him.
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Craig Bohl recruited Josh Allen which keeps him in the conversation with Joe Glenn. The non-Josh years for Bohl are worse than the Glenn years and Bohl has the luxury of a MUCH weaker conference.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:44 am Craig Bohl recruited Josh Allen which keeps him in the conversation with Joe Glenn. The non-Josh years for Bohl are worse than the Glenn years and Bohl has the luxury of a MUCH weaker conference.
Barely. I am not sure it was Bohly with the JA lure - more like Vigen very unfortunately.

Bohly (and Dickface) have / had much, much more support - financially, academically, and facility wise - as you know.
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BackHarlowRoad wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 9:55 am Joe Glenn was a unicorn among football coaches not in his successes as a coach, but as a personable human. That dude remembered my name and hometown 7 months after having only ONE very brief conversation with him.
Exactly...Glenn is a genuinely good person. Was very bummed that he didn't do better.
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McPeachy wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:44 am Craig Bohl recruited Josh Allen which keeps him in the conversation with Joe Glenn. The non-Josh years for Bohl are worse than the Glenn years and Bohl has the luxury of a MUCH weaker conference.
Barely. I am not sure it was Bohly with the JA lure - more like Vigen very unfortunately.

Bohly (and Dickface) have / had much, much more support - financially, academically, and facility wise - as you know.
I don't think I'd credit anyone with recruiting or luring Josh Allen considering nobody offered him an opportunity to play but us. Wyoming didn't find Josh Allen, he found Wyoming. Credit goes to whoever responded to his email.
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McPeachy wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:44 am Craig Bohl recruited Josh Allen which keeps him in the conversation with Joe Glenn. The non-Josh years for Bohl are worse than the Glenn years and Bohl has the luxury of a MUCH weaker conference.
Barely. I am not sure it was Bohly with the JA lure - more like Vigen very unfortunately.

Bohly (and Dickface) have / had much, much more support - financially, academically, and facility wise - as you know.
Yeah, Joe got shafted, imo. Way underfunded in a brutal MWC.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:23 am
McPeachy wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:44 am Craig Bohl recruited Josh Allen which keeps him in the conversation with Joe Glenn. The non-Josh years for Bohl are worse than the Glenn years and Bohl has the luxury of a MUCH weaker conference.
Barely. I am not sure it was Bohly with the JA lure - more like Vigen very unfortunately.

Bohly (and Dickface) have / had much, much more support - financially, academically, and facility wise - as you know.
Yeah, Joe got shafted, imo. Way underfunded in a brutal MWC.
How much to attribute Joe Glenn's poor record to relative levels of program support is such a weird way to approach the "who was better" debate. Comparison's across era's is notoriously subjective. If you are interested in basketball, I recommend Bill Simmon's "The Book Of Basketball". He acknowledges the problem of declaring certain teams/coaches/players as better when the metrics that we use to determine that are very dependent on the era they played in.

So how do we compare Joe Glenn and CB? I really don't think university expenditure/support is the right metric. Program spending goes up over time in general and it's not like it has increased by orders of magnitude since Joe Glenn was here...not only that, but other programs have also increased so, while absolute spending has definitely increased, spending relative to the conference is another thing entirely. Further complicating things...the highest spending members of the MWC at the time Joe Glenn was coach are no longer with the conference and we have backfilled with lower spending programs. To me it seems like people are not happy with the result and are looking for other factors beyond the poor performance to be dissatisfied with. The problem is the poor performance...how the university pays for and compensates that performance is not at issue when evaluating coaching accumen. It's also not something that is in the coaches control. Glenn and Bohl (and every other coach) are products of the environments they are competing in. This is the MWC we are talking about here...not the BIG10 or SEC...all of the coaches are trying to "do more with less" to some degree.

What about wins and losses? That is a lot easier to me...but still prone to over-interpretation. As has been pointed out, Joe Glenn had to play BYU, TCU, and Utah while Bohl does not have them as in-conference foes. The conference has changed but there are some common teams. Both era's had 5 common conference foes...SDSU, CSU, AFA, UNM, and UNLV. Against those teams, Bohl's winning percentage is 0.516 .... Glenn's winning percentage is 0.400. That is a group of teams that Bohl has been criticized for losing to...but I don't see the same criticism leveled at Glen.

At the end of the day they have remarkably similar arcs. I liked Glen a lot as a person...but I have enjoyed being a fan more during the Bohl years. I give the nod to Bohl but I like them both.
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It's been hashed and rehashed.

Glenn is about equal to Bohl but needed more time.

Bohl is lucky to have had JA. The non-Josh years compared to the Glenn years? I'd say Glenn pretty easy.

Besides TCU, Utah, and byu, Glenn also usually had a couple p5s ooc.
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BackHarlowRoad wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:28 pm
McPeachy wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:44 am Craig Bohl recruited Josh Allen which keeps him in the conversation with Joe Glenn. The non-Josh years for Bohl are worse than the Glenn years and Bohl has the luxury of a MUCH weaker conference.
Barely. I am not sure it was Bohly with the JA lure - more like Vigen very unfortunately.

Bohly (and Dickface) have / had much, much more support - financially, academically, and facility wise - as you know.
I don't think I'd credit anyone with recruiting or luring Josh Allen considering nobody offered him an opportunity to play but us. Wyoming didn't find Josh Allen, he found Wyoming. Credit goes to whoever responded to his email.
I remember seeing how it worked out in one of the documentaries. I think there was an assistant at Wyoming (can't remember his name) who had a connection at Reedley and somehow (maybe from the Reedley coach) was informed about Josh. He took this tape to Vigen and then Vigen to Bohl. Vigen somehow got credit but of course it was an assistant who found him. I'll see if i can find it. That assistant coach deserves credit.
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laxwyo wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:04 am
BackHarlowRoad wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:28 pm
McPeachy wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:44 am Craig Bohl recruited Josh Allen which keeps him in the conversation with Joe Glenn. The non-Josh years for Bohl are worse than the Glenn years and Bohl has the luxury of a MUCH weaker conference.
Barely. I am not sure it was Bohly with the JA lure - more like Vigen very unfortunately.

Bohly (and Dickface) have / had much, much more support - financially, academically, and facility wise - as you know.
I don't think I'd credit anyone with recruiting or luring Josh Allen considering nobody offered him an opportunity to play but us. Wyoming didn't find Josh Allen, he found Wyoming. Credit goes to whoever responded to his email.
I remember seeing how it worked out in one of the documentaries. I think there was an assistant at Wyoming (can't remember his name) who had a connection at Reedley and somehow (maybe from the Reedley coach) was informed about Josh. He took this tape to Vigen and then Vigen to Bohl. Vigen somehow got credit but of course it was an assistant who found him. I'll see if i can find it. That assistant coach deserves credit.
Why do we try so hard to parse the credit/blame here?

The way I see it...while the head coach is in charge...he's the man. If Bohl has a great year because he's got a great QB then that is to his credit. Everybody blames a coach if they have no good recruits....right?

I feel like if a fan likes a coach...they will rationalize poor performance in every way they can. This happened with Glenn IMO. Everybody liked him (me included), and if he had just found a way to win just three conference games in 2008 he probably keeps his job. Heck he probably keeps his job with that same record if we hadn't gotten completely pants-ed by the top three in the conference that year...we lost to them by a combined score of 14-138!!!! That '08 team was inexplicably bad.

If a fan does not like a coach..then every personality trait that is not at all releated to getting the job done is put forth as a reason they suck. To me it looks like this is when long discussions about press conference rhetoric start to crop up along with statements like the one Ragtime made comparing the "non-JA Bohl years" to Glenn's tenure. When you are the head guy ... you get all the blame and all the credit. Just the way it is.

If you win games you get to keep your job. That level of winning is different at every school. If you are at Ohio State...you have to win a ton...if you are Craig Bohl....evidently you have to hover around .500 with a jump to 8 wins every so often. To the people saying Glenn got the shaft... do you at least understand why he was fired even if you would have given him another year? That last year Glenn was here was a disaster...I think he's a good coach.. but I also think a good coach doesn't have that type of year if he's worth his salt.

I feel like Glenn got what he deserved. If anything, Bohl benefits by the watered down bowl game stuff. Even with that threshold...Glenn wouldn't have been eligible to have his butt saved in his last two seasons.
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Of course a coach gets credit for recruiting players but there is also enough data to analyze Bohl's abilities with and without an absolute generational talent at QB. Last year appears to be Bohl's ceiling without JA. A highly experienced team against the worst schedule in college football.

Glenn was too loyal to Cockhill and was at way more of a disadvantage in terms of resources and schedule strength. In today's MWC Glenn certainly would do no worse than Bohl.

Granted it is a pass getting started but Bohl's first 2 years were the worst WYO football I've witnessed, including compared with Glenn's 08 team (yes, I realize that was Glenn's last year vs Bohl's 1st). I know sos doesn't matter to some, but if there was any way to go back, I'd bet Bohl's team last year would suffer the same fate in 08.

At very least, there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between the 2.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:22 am Of course a coach gets credit for recruiting players but there is also enough data to analyze Bohl's abilities with and without an absolute generational talent at QB. Last year appears to be Bohl's ceiling without JA. A highly experienced team against the worst schedule in college football.

Glenn was too loyal to Cockhill and was at way more of a disadvantage in terms of resources and schedule strength. In today's MWC Glenn certainly would do no worse than Bohl.

Granted it is a pass getting started but Bohl's first 2 years were the worst WYO football I've witnessed, including compared with Glenn's 08 team (yes, I realize that was Glenn's last year vs Bohl's 1st). I know sos doesn't matter to some, but if there was any way to go back, I'd bet Bohl's team last year would suffer the same fate in 08.

At very least, there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between the 2.
Is there a coach out there that would not do worse without Josh Allen? I don't really hold that against Bohl. Allen is awesome.

Giving Glenn credit for playing a tougher SOS (not his doing) and discounting Bohl for having more institutional support (also not his doing) just feels petty to me. Bohl appears to be a thoroughly slightly more than mediocre coach..do you disagree?

All the comparisons across eras are really tough to make...the only one I'm comfortable making is the comparison in results against like competition. As I mentioned...5 of our conference foes are the same between eras. I don't think our relative spending or program investment to those 5 programs has changed enough to make much of a difference. Neither coach is killing it in that category but Bohl is better there (so far..this next season could be a bloodbath)

Those metrics are great but the eye test is where i'm guessing this gets settled for most fans. I was at nearly every home football game through both coaches tenure. I think, in general, Bohl puts a better product on the field than Glenn. I don't think it's a slam dunk and the trend is that Wyoming coaches get way worse at the end of their tenure so there is time for Bohl to tail off.
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Meh, SOS and relative conference strength are indicators of the parameters within year. Actual numbers are hard to compare across years but the overall trends are comparable. Glenn's mwc was closer to the bottom of the power conferences and Bohl's is closer to the top of fcs. Bohl minus JA would start with nearly 5 guaranteed losses. He wouldn't win 6 of 7 of the remaining games. Like I said, not a nickel's worth of difference between the two except Bohl doesn't have the juice on the schedule to expose the weaknesses consistently like HI did.

The JA point is relevant unless you think another JA is waking through the door. I don't so Bohl's ceiling minus JA is relevant. It's looking more and more like last year is Bohl's ceiling minus JA.

Resources are important. At the time I think Glenn was among the lower end of the mwc in salaries, expenditures, etc. Bohl is in the upper end of salaries for what? How else could those resources be used if we went back to near the bottom of the mwc in football funding. After all, funding level is irrelevant when comparing coaches, right? If Glenn wasn't handicapped by spending and resources then neither would the next coach at WYO if we greatly reduced football salaries and expenditures. Maybe we can really amp up bball while still going to meaningless bowl games especially if we really soften the ooc schedule because SOS doesn't matter either.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:28 am Meh, SOS and relative conference strength are indicators of the parameters within year. Actual numbers are hard to compare across years but the overall trends are comparable. Glenn's mwc was closer to the bottom of the power conferences and Bohl's is closer to the top of fcs. Bohl minus JA would start with nearly 5 guaranteed losses. He wouldn't win 6 of 7 of the remaining games. Like I said, not a nickel's worth of difference between the two except Bohl doesn't have the juice on the schedule to expose the weaknesses consistently like HI did.

The JA point is relevant unless you think another JA is waking through the door. I don't so Bohl's ceiling minus JA is relevant. It's looking more and more like last year is Bohl's ceiling minus JA.

Resources are important. At the time I think Glenn was among the lower end of the mwc in salaries, expenditures, etc. Bohl is in the upper end of salaries for what? How else could those resources be used if we went back to near the bottom of the mwc in football funding. After all, funding level is irrelevant when comparing coaches, right? If Glenn wasn't handicapped by spending and resources then neither would the next coach at WYO if we greatly reduced football salaries and expenditures. Maybe we can really amp up bball while still going to meaningless bowl games especially if we really soften the ooc schedule because SOS doesn't matter either.
Are you saying that CSU, UNM, UNLV, AFA, and SDSU were better as a group over the time that Glenn was coaching?...if so....bring the evidence.

Are you saying that CSU, UNM, UNLV, AFA, and SDSU have not kept up with Wyoming's level of investment as a group since Glenn was coaching? .... if so... bring the evidence.

I guess i'm not so much arguing that Bohl is any good (he does not appear to be)...I'm taking on what I'm perceiving as some sort of nostalgia for the Glenn era. Basically an exciting second year with a precipitous drop off.

When compared against good teams...both Bohl and Glenn sucked..shocking. When compared against the 5 programs that both coaches had in common during thier tenure...also sucked. Bohl is barely over .500 against that group while Glen comes in at .400.

The argument that we should reduce football investment is basically the same argument that I have made about the difficulty of football success at UW in particular that I have been shouted down about. Why spend what we do if we are never going to get results? If there were ever a coach that was going to be able to succeed at UW I would have bet big on Glenn and Bohl. And yet...mediocrity abounds. If Bohl puts a team on the field like Glenn did in 2008 they I'll be the first one to say that you are right about their relative abilities. Bohl almost did it last year. He may succeed in matching Glenn's low point this coming year.
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Off the top of my head (I'll have to go look at numbers) the Lubick years at csu were better than today as we're the Long years at UNM.

Suds is probably tougher today. UNLV? I honestly don't remember. I think they had a decent year or two in Glenn's time... I'm guessing they are a push. AF? I'm also guessing a push.

Technically Bohl doesn't play suds or unlv every year.

It isn't nostalgia for Glenn years as much as it is that he was a really nice guy, got crap for resources, and still performed as well as Bohl especially in the non-JA years. The resources spent on Bohl haven't generated much of a ROI and Bohl squashes fan excitement around the program.

You really believe Bohl teams would beat the T25 teams of Utah, TCU, and byu? Since Bohl rarely beats anyone above 75, I'm thinking it's not much of a stretch to pencil those in as losses along with at least 1 P5 game. He'd have to win 7 of 8 against a better unm and csu team along with a decent AF and suds team. Wouldn't happen.

Back to "at minimum, there's not a nickel's worth of difference between them".
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