Thoughts on Cowboy Basketball

Everything Cowboy and Cowgirl Basketball, plus other Cowboy athletics
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McPeachy
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Cowboy Junky wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:18 pm
McPeachy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:24 am
Cowboy Junky wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:08 pm
McPeachy wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:49 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:49 pm People on this board are prejudice towards short white point guards.

I get it with Lieberman, because he took 2/3 of the season to play his best ball of the season and still be a liability.

Cody Kelly isn't a bad back up point guard option. He can shoot, he can shoot free throws, and he didn't turn it over much last year as a freshman. I thought he was better than Lieberman last year.

To me, the Riley Grabau hate fest was about the stupidest thing I've ever seen. He won us a dozen games over 4 years on his free throw shooting alone, was a clutch three point shooter, and took care of the rock better than anyone on the team.

Luckily our coaching staff agrees with me and doesn't pre-judge point guards based off the color of their skin or their height.
Junky, come on man! Cody cannot shoot, misses free throws worse than I, and is a turnover machine. Look up the kids stats for 2016-17 for yourself. Redding, Adams, James, Gorski, Mack, and an occasional other here and there, should make certain Kelly never sees the floor without at 40 point lead and 5 to go.

And please don't compare Kelly to Grabau, that is like night and day and makes you look like an attention "friendly ladies". Shame on you for bringing race & skin color into this as well - that is f-word pathetic.
Turnover machines rarely lead their team in assist/turnover ratio, especially as freshmen.

Obviously the kids stats aren't printed on the inside of your ass or you would be able to see them, with your head buried up there. Since you requested them, here they are.

His stats are rock solid for a freshman. He was second on the team in 3 point percentage. He led the team last year in assists/minute. He led the team in steals/minute as a freshman. He led the team in assists/turnover ratio. His turnovers, which everyone bitches about, are less than Justin James, whom everyone wants to play point. In fact, if he played the same minutes as James, he would average 1 turnover per game LESS than James, as a freshman. Only Mcmanamen, Herndon, Naughton, Gorski, and Lieberman turned the ball over at a lower rate than Kelly and ALL of them are upper classmen or gone. The only ball handler on the team to average less turnovers/minute is Gorski, and he rarely brings the ball up the court. Kelly is 4th on our roster in turnovers/minute. So yeah, call me crazy, but when you're leading the team in assists/minute, assists/turnovers AND steals/minute, when you rank 4th(lowest) on our roster in turnovers/minute, and you're 2nd on the team in 3 point percentage, you deserve minutes. You were right about one thing though, he is a poop free throw shooter.

1st in assists/minute, steals/minute, and assists/turnover
2nd in 3 point percentage
4th in turnovers/minute

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... ng-cowboys

I know all these stats wont stop the so called basketball experts from prejudicing Kelly because he's short and white, but at least know what you're talking about when you accuse him of being a turnover machine. If he's a turnover machine, there are 8 BIGGER turnover machines on our current roster.

And the reason I compared Kelly to Grabau is because he's just another short white point guard that everyone bitches about. The reason I compared him to Grabau is because everyone was bitching about Grabau being a liability the entire time he played for us. That was me pointing out how idiotic people on this board are. They bitched about Grabau the very same way they bitch about Kelly, they bitched about Lieberman, they'll bitch about the next short white point, and they'll bitch about every offensive coordinator we hire from now until the end of time. That's Wyonation: bitch, bitch, bitch....ad nauseum.

Kelly isn't the worlds best point, but he's an adequate back-up. James is one of the few players on our squad that can attack the rim when the three ball isn't falling. We need him on the wing. Maybe with the addition of more guys that can attack the rim, we can keep James out of foul trouble, but his game leads to foul trouble. We need other guys that can play point, and Kelly is that guy to come in and get minutes when the match-up is right.
TLDR.

Once again, this has nothing to do with race / skin color. Don't lump me in with "they", and go get some help & mental therapy, you need it.
Sorry it was too long. I can draw in crayon on flash cards if that helps.

Ill sum it up. He leads the team in three categories: assists/minute, steals/minute, and assist/turnover. Hes the 2nd best 3 point shooter on the team. He turns it over at the 4th lowset rate on the team. He deserves to play.

If defending a 19 year old kid from a bunch of insulting, anonomous, internet douchebags makes me crazy...then sign me up for straight jacket.

Easy enough or should I write in millenial abbreviations, like tldr, so you can understand?
Defending a walk-on mediocre point guard (that turned the ball over 5 times in an exhibition game), isn't the same as calling out the entire board (especially me you f-word) for being racist and judging an athlete's abilities on his / her skin color. You are one highly ignorant person. I question your mental health once again. Now, go f-word yourself poop.
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I have a list of people you missed...
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Cowboy Junky
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McPeachy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:20 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:18 pm
McPeachy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:24 am
Cowboy Junky wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:08 pm
McPeachy wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:49 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:49 pm People on this board are prejudice towards short white point guards.

I get it with Lieberman, because he took 2/3 of the season to play his best ball of the season and still be a liability.

Cody Kelly isn't a bad back up point guard option. He can shoot, he can shoot free throws, and he didn't turn it over much last year as a freshman. I thought he was better than Lieberman last year.

To me, the Riley Grabau hate fest was about the stupidest thing I've ever seen. He won us a dozen games over 4 years on his free throw shooting alone, was a clutch three point shooter, and took care of the rock better than anyone on the team.

Luckily our coaching staff agrees with me and doesn't pre-judge point guards based off the color of their skin or their height.
Junky, come on man! Cody cannot shoot, misses free throws worse than I, and is a turnover machine. Look up the kids stats for 2016-17 for yourself. Redding, Adams, James, Gorski, Mack, and an occasional other here and there, should make certain Kelly never sees the floor without at 40 point lead and 5 to go.

And please don't compare Kelly to Grabau, that is like night and day and makes you look like an attention "friendly ladies". Shame on you for bringing race & skin color into this as well - that is f-word pathetic.
Turnover machines rarely lead their team in assist/turnover ratio, especially as freshmen.

Obviously the kids stats aren't printed on the inside of your ass or you would be able to see them, with your head buried up there. Since you requested them, here they are.

His stats are rock solid for a freshman. He was second on the team in 3 point percentage. He led the team last year in assists/minute. He led the team in steals/minute as a freshman. He led the team in assists/turnover ratio. His turnovers, which everyone bitches about, are less than Justin James, whom everyone wants to play point. In fact, if he played the same minutes as James, he would average 1 turnover per game LESS than James, as a freshman. Only Mcmanamen, Herndon, Naughton, Gorski, and Lieberman turned the ball over at a lower rate than Kelly and ALL of them are upper classmen or gone. The only ball handler on the team to average less turnovers/minute is Gorski, and he rarely brings the ball up the court. Kelly is 4th on our roster in turnovers/minute. So yeah, call me crazy, but when you're leading the team in assists/minute, assists/turnovers AND steals/minute, when you rank 4th(lowest) on our roster in turnovers/minute, and you're 2nd on the team in 3 point percentage, you deserve minutes. You were right about one thing though, he is a poop free throw shooter.

1st in assists/minute, steals/minute, and assists/turnover
2nd in 3 point percentage
4th in turnovers/minute

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... ng-cowboys

I know all these stats wont stop the so called basketball experts from prejudicing Kelly because he's short and white, but at least know what you're talking about when you accuse him of being a turnover machine. If he's a turnover machine, there are 8 BIGGER turnover machines on our current roster.

And the reason I compared Kelly to Grabau is because he's just another short white point guard that everyone bitches about. The reason I compared him to Grabau is because everyone was bitching about Grabau being a liability the entire time he played for us. That was me pointing out how idiotic people on this board are. They bitched about Grabau the very same way they bitch about Kelly, they bitched about Lieberman, they'll bitch about the next short white point, and they'll bitch about every offensive coordinator we hire from now until the end of time. That's Wyonation: bitch, bitch, bitch....ad nauseum.

Kelly isn't the worlds best point, but he's an adequate back-up. James is one of the few players on our squad that can attack the rim when the three ball isn't falling. We need him on the wing. Maybe with the addition of more guys that can attack the rim, we can keep James out of foul trouble, but his game leads to foul trouble. We need other guys that can play point, and Kelly is that guy to come in and get minutes when the match-up is right.
TLDR.

Once again, this has nothing to do with race / skin color. Don't lump me in with "they", and go get some help & mental therapy, you need it.
Sorry it was too long. I can draw in crayon on flash cards if that helps.

Ill sum it up. He leads the team in three categories: assists/minute, steals/minute, and assist/turnover. Hes the 2nd best 3 point shooter on the team. He turns it over at the 4th lowset rate on the team. He deserves to play.

If defending a 19 year old kid from a bunch of insulting, anonomous, internet douchebags makes me crazy...then sign me up for straight jacket.

Easy enough or should I write in millenial abbreviations, like tldr, so you can understand?
Defending a walk-on mediocre point guard (that turned the ball over 5 times in an exhibition game), isn't the same as calling out the entire board (especially me you f-word) for being racist and judging an athlete's abilities on his / her skin color. You are one highly ignorant person. I question your mental health once again. Now, go f-word yourself poop.
Once is an individual basis(unless its Grabau). Twice is a trend. 3 times is a pattern.

Grabau
Lieberman
Kelly

You tell me what they all have in common.

Where did I call you a racist? You got a little carried away by a board generality I made towards short white point guards. If you feel like I was talking about you, thats your issue....

I did call you an insulting, anonomous internet douchebag. Thats definitely directed at you. Kelly pays his own way, hes a kid, and he doesnt deserve to have his lifes passion summed up by the term "turnover machine" because of one exibition(the first game of the year, when everyone turns it over), especially since I just stastically spanked your ignorant ass. There are 8 guys on the roster that turn it over more than him.
Wyoming Cowboy basketball:

National Champions 1943.

Helm's foundation National Champions 1934.

NCAA tournament MVP and two time College Basketball Player of the Year Kenny Sailors, who is credited with inventing the jump shot.

Do you remember Cowboy Basketball?

I do.
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Cowboy Junky wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:49 pm
McPeachy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:20 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:18 pm
McPeachy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:24 am
Cowboy Junky wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:08 pm
McPeachy wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:49 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:49 pm People on this board are prejudice towards short white point guards.

I get it with Lieberman, because he took 2/3 of the season to play his best ball of the season and still be a liability.

Cody Kelly isn't a bad back up point guard option. He can shoot, he can shoot free throws, and he didn't turn it over much last year as a freshman. I thought he was better than Lieberman last year.

To me, the Riley Grabau hate fest was about the stupidest thing I've ever seen. He won us a dozen games over 4 years on his free throw shooting alone, was a clutch three point shooter, and took care of the rock better than anyone on the team.

Luckily our coaching staff agrees with me and doesn't pre-judge point guards based off the color of their skin or their height.
Junky, come on man! Cody cannot shoot, misses free throws worse than I, and is a turnover machine. Look up the kids stats for 2016-17 for yourself. Redding, Adams, James, Gorski, Mack, and an occasional other here and there, should make certain Kelly never sees the floor without at 40 point lead and 5 to go.

And please don't compare Kelly to Grabau, that is like night and day and makes you look like an attention "friendly ladies". Shame on you for bringing race & skin color into this as well - that is f-word pathetic.
Turnover machines rarely lead their team in assist/turnover ratio, especially as freshmen.

Obviously the kids stats aren't printed on the inside of your ass or you would be able to see them, with your head buried up there. Since you requested them, here they are.

His stats are rock solid for a freshman. He was second on the team in 3 point percentage. He led the team last year in assists/minute. He led the team in steals/minute as a freshman. He led the team in assists/turnover ratio. His turnovers, which everyone bitches about, are less than Justin James, whom everyone wants to play point. In fact, if he played the same minutes as James, he would average 1 turnover per game LESS than James, as a freshman. Only Mcmanamen, Herndon, Naughton, Gorski, and Lieberman turned the ball over at a lower rate than Kelly and ALL of them are upper classmen or gone. The only ball handler on the team to average less turnovers/minute is Gorski, and he rarely brings the ball up the court. Kelly is 4th on our roster in turnovers/minute. So yeah, call me crazy, but when you're leading the team in assists/minute, assists/turnovers AND steals/minute, when you rank 4th(lowest) on our roster in turnovers/minute, and you're 2nd on the team in 3 point percentage, you deserve minutes. You were right about one thing though, he is a poop free throw shooter.

1st in assists/minute, steals/minute, and assists/turnover
2nd in 3 point percentage
4th in turnovers/minute

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... ng-cowboys

I know all these stats wont stop the so called basketball experts from prejudicing Kelly because he's short and white, but at least know what you're talking about when you accuse him of being a turnover machine. If he's a turnover machine, there are 8 BIGGER turnover machines on our current roster.

And the reason I compared Kelly to Grabau is because he's just another short white point guard that everyone bitches about. The reason I compared him to Grabau is because everyone was bitching about Grabau being a liability the entire time he played for us. That was me pointing out how idiotic people on this board are. They bitched about Grabau the very same way they bitch about Kelly, they bitched about Lieberman, they'll bitch about the next short white point, and they'll bitch about every offensive coordinator we hire from now until the end of time. That's Wyonation: bitch, bitch, bitch....ad nauseum.

Kelly isn't the worlds best point, but he's an adequate back-up. James is one of the few players on our squad that can attack the rim when the three ball isn't falling. We need him on the wing. Maybe with the addition of more guys that can attack the rim, we can keep James out of foul trouble, but his game leads to foul trouble. We need other guys that can play point, and Kelly is that guy to come in and get minutes when the match-up is right.
TLDR.

Once again, this has nothing to do with race / skin color. Don't lump me in with "they", and go get some help & mental therapy, you need it.
Sorry it was too long. I can draw in crayon on flash cards if that helps.

Ill sum it up. He leads the team in three categories: assists/minute, steals/minute, and assist/turnover. Hes the 2nd best 3 point shooter on the team. He turns it over at the 4th lowset rate on the team. He deserves to play.

If defending a 19 year old kid from a bunch of insulting, anonomous, internet douchebags makes me crazy...then sign me up for straight jacket.

Easy enough or should I write in millenial abbreviations, like tldr, so you can understand?
Defending a walk-on mediocre point guard (that turned the ball over 5 times in an exhibition game), isn't the same as calling out the entire board (especially me you f-word) for being racist and judging an athlete's abilities on his / her skin color. You are one highly ignorant person. I question your mental health once again. Now, go f-word yourself poop.
Once is an individual basis(unless its Grabau). Twice is a trend. 3 times is a pattern.

Grabau
Lieberman
Kelly

You tell me what they all have in common.

Where did I call you a racist? You got a little carried away by a board generality I made towards short white point guards. If you feel like I was talking about you, thats your issue....

I did call you an insulting, anonomous internet douchebag. Thats definitely directed at you. Kelly pays his own way, hes a kid, and he doesnt deserve to have his lifes passion summed up by the term "turnover machine" because of one exibition(the first game of the year, when everyone turns it over), especially since I just stastically spanked your ignorant ass. There are 8 guys on the roster that turn it over more than him.
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DVDA wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:12 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:49 pm
McPeachy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:20 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:18 pm
McPeachy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:24 am
Cowboy Junky wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:08 pm
McPeachy wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:49 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:49 pm People on this board are prejudice towards short white point guards.

I get it with Lieberman, because he took 2/3 of the season to play his best ball of the season and still be a liability.

Cody Kelly isn't a bad back up point guard option. He can shoot, he can shoot free throws, and he didn't turn it over much last year as a freshman. I thought he was better than Lieberman last year.

To me, the Riley Grabau hate fest was about the stupidest thing I've ever seen. He won us a dozen games over 4 years on his free throw shooting alone, was a clutch three point shooter, and took care of the rock better than anyone on the team.

Luckily our coaching staff agrees with me and doesn't pre-judge point guards based off the color of their skin or their height.
Junky, come on man! Cody cannot shoot, misses free throws worse than I, and is a turnover machine. Look up the kids stats for 2016-17 for yourself. Redding, Adams, James, Gorski, Mack, and an occasional other here and there, should make certain Kelly never sees the floor without at 40 point lead and 5 to go.

And please don't compare Kelly to Grabau, that is like night and day and makes you look like an attention "friendly ladies". Shame on you for bringing race & skin color into this as well - that is f-word pathetic.
Turnover machines rarely lead their team in assist/turnover ratio, especially as freshmen.

Obviously the kids stats aren't printed on the inside of your ass or you would be able to see them, with your head buried up there. Since you requested them, here they are.

His stats are rock solid for a freshman. He was second on the team in 3 point percentage. He led the team last year in assists/minute. He led the team in steals/minute as a freshman. He led the team in assists/turnover ratio. His turnovers, which everyone bitches about, are less than Justin James, whom everyone wants to play point. In fact, if he played the same minutes as James, he would average 1 turnover per game LESS than James, as a freshman. Only Mcmanamen, Herndon, Naughton, Gorski, and Lieberman turned the ball over at a lower rate than Kelly and ALL of them are upper classmen or gone. The only ball handler on the team to average less turnovers/minute is Gorski, and he rarely brings the ball up the court. Kelly is 4th on our roster in turnovers/minute. So yeah, call me crazy, but when you're leading the team in assists/minute, assists/turnovers AND steals/minute, when you rank 4th(lowest) on our roster in turnovers/minute, and you're 2nd on the team in 3 point percentage, you deserve minutes. You were right about one thing though, he is a poop free throw shooter.

1st in assists/minute, steals/minute, and assists/turnover
2nd in 3 point percentage
4th in turnovers/minute

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... ng-cowboys

I know all these stats wont stop the so called basketball experts from prejudicing Kelly because he's short and white, but at least know what you're talking about when you accuse him of being a turnover machine. If he's a turnover machine, there are 8 BIGGER turnover machines on our current roster.

And the reason I compared Kelly to Grabau is because he's just another short white point guard that everyone bitches about. The reason I compared him to Grabau is because everyone was bitching about Grabau being a liability the entire time he played for us. That was me pointing out how idiotic people on this board are. They bitched about Grabau the very same way they bitch about Kelly, they bitched about Lieberman, they'll bitch about the next short white point, and they'll bitch about every offensive coordinator we hire from now until the end of time. That's Wyonation: bitch, bitch, bitch....ad nauseum.

Kelly isn't the worlds best point, but he's an adequate back-up. James is one of the few players on our squad that can attack the rim when the three ball isn't falling. We need him on the wing. Maybe with the addition of more guys that can attack the rim, we can keep James out of foul trouble, but his game leads to foul trouble. We need other guys that can play point, and Kelly is that guy to come in and get minutes when the match-up is right.
TLDR.

Once again, this has nothing to do with race / skin color. Don't lump me in with "they", and go get some help & mental therapy, you need it.
Sorry it was too long. I can draw in crayon on flash cards if that helps.

Ill sum it up. He leads the team in three categories: assists/minute, steals/minute, and assist/turnover. Hes the 2nd best 3 point shooter on the team. He turns it over at the 4th lowset rate on the team. He deserves to play.

If defending a 19 year old kid from a bunch of insulting, anonomous, internet douchebags makes me crazy...then sign me up for straight jacket.

Easy enough or should I write in millenial abbreviations, like tldr, so you can understand?
Defending a walk-on mediocre point guard (that turned the ball over 5 times in an exhibition game), isn't the same as calling out the entire board (especially me you f-word) for being racist and judging an athlete's abilities on his / her skin color. You are one highly ignorant person. I question your mental health once again. Now, go f-word yourself poop.
Once is an individual basis(unless its Grabau). Twice is a trend. 3 times is a pattern.

Grabau
Lieberman
Kelly

You tell me what they all have in common.

Where did I call you a racist? You got a little carried away by a board generality I made towards short white point guards. If you feel like I was talking about you, thats your issue....

I did call you an insulting, anonomous internet douchebag. Thats definitely directed at you. Kelly pays his own way, hes a kid, and he doesnt deserve to have his lifes passion summed up by the term "turnover machine" because of one exibition(the first game of the year, when everyone turns it over), especially since I just stastically spanked your ignorant ass. There are 8 guys on the roster that turn it over more than him.
Broke back Mountain 2, coming to Laramie soon.
Black, White or Yellow we haven't had a real complete point guard since Ewing. Jay Dee Luster was an amazing defensive player, but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Grabau was decent and his free throw shooting won us some games. Liebs and Kelly were and are mediocre at best
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Cowboy Junky
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Ewing scored a lot of points, but he wasn't all that either. He just shot it 30 times a game. He didn't shoot it at a very high percentage. He didn't hit many game winners.

I prefer a guy like Luster. Let the other guys on the team score, and do everything else well.

Just because you're point doesn't shoot it a lot doesn't mean he isn't effective.

For a freshman to lead the team in assists/turnover, assists/minute, and steals/minute while turning it over at a lower rate than 2/3 of the team, and shooting the second best 3 point percentage is pretty impressive.

He deserves minutes.
Wyoming Cowboy basketball:

National Champions 1943.

Helm's foundation National Champions 1934.

NCAA tournament MVP and two time College Basketball Player of the Year Kenny Sailors, who is credited with inventing the jump shot.

Do you remember Cowboy Basketball?

I do.
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Cowboy Junky wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:30 am Ewing scored a lot of points, but he wasn't all that either. He just shot it 30 times a game. He didn't shoot it at a very high percentage. He didn't hit many game winners.

I prefer a guy like Luster. Let the other guys on the team score, and do everything else well.

Just because you're point doesn't shoot it a lot doesn't mean he isn't effective.

For a freshman to lead the team in assists/turnover, assists/minute, and steals/minute while turning it over at a lower rate than 2/3 of the team, and shooting the second best 3 point percentage is pretty impressive.

He deserves minutes.
Correct there have been quite a few teams with a point guard whom doesn't score a lot but is considered a "floor general". I can't think of any current guards off the top of my head but Ed Cota at North Carolina and Dee Brown at Illinois. They never scored a ton, Brown only averaged 13 ppg but nearly 6 assists per game. I tend to look at assists to turnover ratio over points in a point.
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Cowboy Junky wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:30 am

I prefer a guy like Luster. Let the other guys on the team score, and do everything else well.

Just because you're point doesn't shoot it a lot doesn't mean he isn't effective.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but this is why I can't take you seriously when it comes to PG's. Do you remember telling everyone how we would be better after Ewing left because we would have a "real" PG in Luster? Remember how that turned out (team went from 19 wins to 10 wins and almost certainly the worst UW team in the last 40 years).

I like Luster, but it is simply misleading to imply that guards like Ewing and Josh Adams are not good PG's because they score. Look at the assist rate for both of them. Very much on par or higher than Grabau/Lieberman.

I agree with your last statement, but I think you will find that Redding will not be a high volume shooter either. In fact, I expect Kelley to take more shots/min than Redding. However, because Redding can finish going to the rim, it will open up opportunities since he can draw a help defender sooner.

I would probably rather have Kelley taking an open 3 than Redding, but I want the ball in Redding's hands.
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NowherePoke wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:52 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:30 am

I prefer a guy like Luster. Let the other guys on the team score, and do everything else well.

Just because you're point doesn't shoot it a lot doesn't mean he isn't effective.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but this is why I can't take you seriously when it comes to PG's. Do you remember telling everyone how we would be better after Ewing left because we would have a "real" PG in Luster? Remember how that turned out (team went from 19 wins to 10 wins and almost certainly the worst UW team in the last 40 years).

I like Luster, but it is simply misleading to imply that guards like Ewing and Josh Adams are not good PG's because they score. Look at the assist rate for both of them. Very much on par or higher than Grabau/Lieberman.

I agree with your last statement, but I think you will find that Redding will not be a high volume shooter either. In fact, I expect Kelley to take more shots/min than Redding. However, because Redding can finish going to the rim, it will open up opportunities since he can draw a help defender sooner.

I would probably rather have Kelley taking an open 3 than Redding, but I want the ball in Redding's hands.
I'm sure you have a link to support your vague memory from 7 years ago, since the wording probably doesn't fit exactly what you're saying. Otherwise, I'm not even getting into your revisionist memory argument.

I didn't say I don't like point guards that score. I said Brandon Ewing wasn't all that. He wasn't. He'll probably hold the Wyoming record for missed three point shots FOREVER. That's not his fault. That was the staffs fault for giving him the green light to shoot ill advised shots whenever he wanted. He could have been the greatest point in Wyoming history with good coaching.

I didn't say anything about Josh Adams. He wasn't a point either. He was a two that brought the ball up the floor on occassion.

I like points to be able to create offense for others, to take care of the ball, to get some steals, and to shoot a high percentage or don't shoot it often. I don't want the point guard to feel like he's got to get 20 points a game shooting at a 30 percent clip, taking ill advised shots and attacking the rack to draw offensive fouls on himself. I want him to lead the team in assists, steals, assist/turnover....Points are the least of my concern from the point guard position. It would be nice if the point guard did all of it and shot it at a high percentage, but I can't remember a point guard we've ever had that led the team in assists, steals, assist/turnover, shooting percentage.....Those guys are once in a lifetime hall of famers.

And don't get me twisted. I'm not saying Kelly should start. I'm not saying he's a great point guard. I, like everyone else, thought Redding looked like he needs to be on the floor often: the likely starter and probably a 35 minutes per game guy.

I am saying that Kelly isn't a turnover machine(backed up by his statistics from last season). I am saying he earned his minutes and he deserves MORE minutes this year. I am saying that he doesn't deserve to be rail roaded and insulted by this board, especially since he's paying his own way. He's a kid that loves basketball and gives his best everytime he's on the floor.

Just because a guy doesn't hoist up 39 shots a game and dunk doesn't mean he's a scrub. John Stockton might be the best point guard in history and I don't think he ever dunked and he rarely scored 20 points in a game.
Wyoming Cowboy basketball:

National Champions 1943.

Helm's foundation National Champions 1934.

NCAA tournament MVP and two time College Basketball Player of the Year Kenny Sailors, who is credited with inventing the jump shot.

Do you remember Cowboy Basketball?

I do.
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One name.

Sean Dent. He was the perfect PG for the team we had. Didn't need to score a lot but played defense and distributed the ball.
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Don't really want to get into the middle of this one but...historicaly speaking, Brandon Ewing is the best point guard in Wyoming history. I'm not going to reference the stats because anyone with an ounce of motivation can find them. Please consider his coaching.

He was a scoring machine the likes of which we have not seen before or since he graduted from UW. PG's averaging between 15 and 20 per game are considered elite at almost any level. If there is a knock on Ewing it was his defensive play. Too timid, too slow.

I like Kelly's hustle, I like Redding's ball handling, I liked Leibermans's tenacity. But please don't compare any of those point guards to Brandon Ewing. He would and could start for any team in this conference. If he was playing today, Ny, Cody, and Justin would not be considered PG outside of cleanup and lopsided games.
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Justin james will be remembered more fondly than Ewing
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Cowboy Junky
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GetRealMan wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:01 am Don't really want to get into the middle of this one but...historicaly speaking, Brandon Ewing is the best point guard in Wyoming history. I'm not going to reference the stats because anyone with an ounce of motivation can find them. Please consider his coaching.

He was a scoring machine the likes of which we have not seen before or since he graduted from UW. PG's averaging between 15 and 20 per game are considered elite at almost any level. If there is a knock on Ewing it was his defensive play. Too timid, too slow.

I like Kelly's hustle, I like Redding's ball handling, I liked Leibermans's tenacity. But please don't compare any of those point guards to Brandon Ewing. He would and could start for any team in this conference. If he was playing today, Ny, Cody, and Justin would not be considered PG outside of cleanup and lopsided games.
No one is saying Brandon wasn't good. He was. Best in school history. Nope.

He shot three pointers at a 32 percent clip, but that didn't stop him from attempting more than anyone to ever lace em up for Wyoming. He turned the ball over 3 times per game. We never won anything significant the entire time he was in Laramie. He was a talented player with piss poor coaching.

My point was, and still is, you don't have to score a lot to be an effective point guard.
Wyoming Cowboy basketball:

National Champions 1943.

Helm's foundation National Champions 1934.

NCAA tournament MVP and two time College Basketball Player of the Year Kenny Sailors, who is credited with inventing the jump shot.

Do you remember Cowboy Basketball?

I do.
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LanderPoke wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:53 am Justin james will be remembered more fondly than Ewing
Probably true, but a different position and player. JJ is a stud. One of the most talented offensive players I have ever seen at UW.
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Cowboy Junky wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:50 pm
NowherePoke wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:52 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:30 am

I prefer a guy like Luster. Let the other guys on the team score, and do everything else well.

Just because you're point doesn't shoot it a lot doesn't mean he isn't effective.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but this is why I can't take you seriously when it comes to PG's. Do you remember telling everyone how we would be better after Ewing left because we would have a "real" PG in Luster? Remember how that turned out (team went from 19 wins to 10 wins and almost certainly the worst UW team in the last 40 years).

I like Luster, but it is simply misleading to imply that guards like Ewing and Josh Adams are not good PG's because they score. Look at the assist rate for both of them. Very much on par or higher than Grabau/Lieberman.

I agree with your last statement, but I think you will find that Redding will not be a high volume shooter either. In fact, I expect Kelley to take more shots/min than Redding. However, because Redding can finish going to the rim, it will open up opportunities since he can draw a help defender sooner.

I would probably rather have Kelley taking an open 3 than Redding, but I want the ball in Redding's hands.
I'm sure you have a link to support your vague memory from 7 years ago, since the wording probably doesn't fit exactly what you're saying. Otherwise, I'm not even getting into your revisionist memory argument.

I didn't say I don't like point guards that score. I said Brandon Ewing wasn't all that. He wasn't. He'll probably hold the Wyoming record for missed three point shots FOREVER. That's not his fault. That was the staffs fault for giving him the green light to shoot ill advised shots whenever he wanted. He could have been the greatest point in Wyoming history with good coaching.

I didn't say anything about Josh Adams. He wasn't a point either. He was a two that brought the ball up the floor on occassion.

I like points to be able to create offense for others, to take care of the ball, to get some steals, and to shoot a high percentage or don't shoot it often. I don't want the point guard to feel like he's got to get 20 points a game shooting at a 30 percent clip, taking ill advised shots and attacking the rack to draw offensive fouls on himself. I want him to lead the team in assists, steals, assist/turnover....Points are the least of my concern from the point guard position. It would be nice if the point guard did all of it and shot it at a high percentage, but I can't remember a point guard we've ever had that led the team in assists, steals, assist/turnover, shooting percentage.....Those guys are once in a lifetime hall of famers.

And don't get me twisted. I'm not saying Kelly should start. I'm not saying he's a great point guard. I, like everyone else, thought Redding looked like he needs to be on the floor often: the likely starter and probably a 35 minutes per game guy.

I am saying that Kelly isn't a turnover machine(backed up by his statistics from last season). I am saying he earned his minutes and he deserves MORE minutes this year. I am saying that he doesn't deserve to be rail roaded and insulted by this board, especially since he's paying his own way. He's a kid that loves basketball and gives his best everytime he's on the floor.

Just because a guy doesn't hoist up 39 shots a game and dunk doesn't mean he's a scrub. John Stockton might be the best point guard in history and I don't think he ever dunked and he rarely scored 20 points in a game.

For the first part, it's not a big deal, but I assumed you would remember. It was a somewhat frequent topic of conversation in between Schroyer's 2nd and 3rd year. This was back when we both posted on MWCBoard. I am not really going to dig back into it (no desire to go to that site anymore), and it doesn't really matter. I just have a higher opinion of Ewing than you do, but it is ancient history now.

Now, on to the more interesting portion of the debate because you bring up some interesting topics:

1. Josh Adams - PG or not? - I am not singling you out, because I think if you polled most Cowboy fans, they would not say Josh was the PG. However, that is because he came in as a SG and played off the ball at the beginning of his career. By the time he was a Jr. though (the NCAA team), he was definitely the lead guard. I am not sure it would be accurate to say either he or Grabau was the PG, it was more of a dual role. However, Josh brought the ball up more often than not, and he had an assist rate that was twice as high as Grabau. As a senior, he did everything of course, but his assist rate was double the highest that Grabau ever posted in his career. Josh had three seasons with assist rates higher than Grabau or Lieberman ever had in their careers.

2. We basically agree about the PG position and Redding/Kelley's role on the team. In a perfect world, I would like a PG exactly as you describe.



I was just left with a bad taste from the Regis game, not because Kelley played poorly (he had plenty of company in that regard), but because he played selfishly. He didn't do the things that I would like to see my PG do. He was trying to do much and not sharing the basketball or getting the team into their offense (whether or not we have an offense to get into is a separate topic).

However, it is only one game as you mention.
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LanderPoke wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:53 am Justin james will be remembered more fondly than Ewing
I hope so but I seriously doubt that!

Ewing is what 2nd all time in points at Wyoming behind Dembo? Didn't he also organize the fundraiser when Weston Johnson unfortunately came down with cancer several years ago?

I did have a chance to catch up with Ewing at the Wyoming-CSU game last Saturday. Sounds like he will be making Wyoming home for quite some time and is finishing up his masters degree. Super great guy.
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OrediggerPoke wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:53 am
LanderPoke wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:53 am Justin james will be remembered more fondly than Ewing
I hope so but I seriously doubt that!

Ewing is what 2nd all time in points at Wyoming behind Dembo? Didn't he also organize the fundraiser when Weston Johnson unfortunately came down with cancer several years ago?

I did have a chance to catch up with Ewing at the Wyoming-CSU game last Saturday. Sounds like he will be making Wyoming home for quite some time and is finishing up his masters degree. Super great guy.
I agree Ewing is the definition of forever a cowboy.
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NowherePoke wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:10 am
Cowboy Junky wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:50 pm
NowherePoke wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:52 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:30 am

I prefer a guy like Luster. Let the other guys on the team score, and do everything else well.

Just because you're point doesn't shoot it a lot doesn't mean he isn't effective.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but this is why I can't take you seriously when it comes to PG's. Do you remember telling everyone how we would be better after Ewing left because we would have a "real" PG in Luster? Remember how that turned out (team went from 19 wins to 10 wins and almost certainly the worst UW team in the last 40 years).

I like Luster, but it is simply misleading to imply that guards like Ewing and Josh Adams are not good PG's because they score. Look at the assist rate for both of them. Very much on par or higher than Grabau/Lieberman.

I agree with your last statement, but I think you will find that Redding will not be a high volume shooter either. In fact, I expect Kelley to take more shots/min than Redding. However, because Redding can finish going to the rim, it will open up opportunities since he can draw a help defender sooner.

I would probably rather have Kelley taking an open 3 than Redding, but I want the ball in Redding's hands.
I'm sure you have a link to support your vague memory from 7 years ago, since the wording probably doesn't fit exactly what you're saying. Otherwise, I'm not even getting into your revisionist memory argument.

I didn't say I don't like point guards that score. I said Brandon Ewing wasn't all that. He wasn't. He'll probably hold the Wyoming record for missed three point shots FOREVER. That's not his fault. That was the staffs fault for giving him the green light to shoot ill advised shots whenever he wanted. He could have been the greatest point in Wyoming history with good coaching.

I didn't say anything about Josh Adams. He wasn't a point either. He was a two that brought the ball up the floor on occassion.

I like points to be able to create offense for others, to take care of the ball, to get some steals, and to shoot a high percentage or don't shoot it often. I don't want the point guard to feel like he's got to get 20 points a game shooting at a 30 percent clip, taking ill advised shots and attacking the rack to draw offensive fouls on himself. I want him to lead the team in assists, steals, assist/turnover....Points are the least of my concern from the point guard position. It would be nice if the point guard did all of it and shot it at a high percentage, but I can't remember a point guard we've ever had that led the team in assists, steals, assist/turnover, shooting percentage.....Those guys are once in a lifetime hall of famers.

And don't get me twisted. I'm not saying Kelly should start. I'm not saying he's a great point guard. I, like everyone else, thought Redding looked like he needs to be on the floor often: the likely starter and probably a 35 minutes per game guy.

I am saying that Kelly isn't a turnover machine(backed up by his statistics from last season). I am saying he earned his minutes and he deserves MORE minutes this year. I am saying that he doesn't deserve to be rail roaded and insulted by this board, especially since he's paying his own way. He's a kid that loves basketball and gives his best everytime he's on the floor.

Just because a guy doesn't hoist up 39 shots a game and dunk doesn't mean he's a scrub. John Stockton might be the best point guard in history and I don't think he ever dunked and he rarely scored 20 points in a game.

For the first part, it's not a big deal, but I assumed you would remember. It was a somewhat frequent topic of conversation in between Schroyer's 2nd and 3rd year. This was back when we both posted on MWCBoard. I am not really going to dig back into it (no desire to go to that site anymore), and it doesn't really matter. I just have a higher opinion of Ewing than you do, but it is ancient history now.

Now, on to the more interesting portion of the debate because you bring up some interesting topics:

1. Josh Adams - PG or not? - I am not singling you out, because I think if you polled most Cowboy fans, they would not say Josh was the PG. However, that is because he came in as a SG and played off the ball at the beginning of his career. By the time he was a Jr. though (the NCAA team), he was definitely the lead guard. I am not sure it would be accurate to say either he or Grabau was the PG, it was more of a dual role. However, Josh brought the ball up more often than not, and he had an assist rate that was twice as high as Grabau. As a senior, he did everything of course, but his assist rate was double the highest that Grabau ever posted in his career. Josh had three seasons with assist rates higher than Grabau or Lieberman ever had in their careers.

2. We basically agree about the PG position and Redding/Kelley's role on the team. In a perfect world, I would like a PG exactly as you describe.



I was just left with a bad taste from the Regis game, not because Kelley played poorly (he had plenty of company in that regard), but because he played selfishly. He didn't do the things that I would like to see my PG do. He was trying to do much and not sharing the basketball or getting the team into their offense (whether or not we have an offense to get into is a separate topic).

However, it is only one game as you mention.
I might have said that. That might have been one of the days I had early cocktails, I was still drinking then. :) I would just like to see the wording to remember the intent.

1. Josh Adams is the exception to a lot of rules. He did bring the ball up, but was most effective at 2. He was probably the most talented point I can remember, when he was playing there. I'll give him that. Dent had offensive liabilities that Josh didn't possess.

2. I just think Kelly has earned minutes. I think Redding will get the lions share, but Kelly is an adequate back-up, especially since he isn't even taking up a scholarship. Leading the team in assists/minute, steals/minute, and assists turnover is impressive as a freshmen. It's even better when you're the second most efficient 3 point shooter on a team full of three point shooters. I would like to see his ball handling get better. It will. He's only a sophomore.

We'll see. I feel comfortable when Kelly is on the floor.
Wyoming Cowboy basketball:

National Champions 1943.

Helm's foundation National Champions 1934.

NCAA tournament MVP and two time College Basketball Player of the Year Kenny Sailors, who is credited with inventing the jump shot.

Do you remember Cowboy Basketball?

I do.
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Cowboy Junky
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Kelly's +/- had to be 10 points while he was on the floor in the first half of the opener. When he was on the floor we went on runs. I think he out played Redding in the first half. Someone q up the stats.
Wyoming Cowboy basketball:

National Champions 1943.

Helm's foundation National Champions 1934.

NCAA tournament MVP and two time College Basketball Player of the Year Kenny Sailors, who is credited with inventing the jump shot.

Do you remember Cowboy Basketball?

I do.
NowherePoke
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Cowboy Junky wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:05 pm Kelly's +/- had to be 10 points while he was on the floor in the first half of the opener. When he was on the floor we went on runs. I think he out played Redding in the first half. Someone q up the stats.
I thought he played very well tonight. I wish some of our bigs would go after rebounds with as much effort as Kelley.
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NowherePoke wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:25 pm
Cowboy Junky wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:05 pm Kelly's +/- had to be 10 points while he was on the floor in the first half of the opener. When he was on the floor we went on runs. I think he out played Redding in the first half. Someone q up the stats.
I thought he played very well tonight. I wish some of our bigs would go after rebounds with as much effort as Kelley.
This team could really use a 6'6" 250 tightend type of post player.
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